Staberella - Octopus intelligence

[LunicaAshes]

EDIT: Since people are having a hard time actually reading the context - this is about eating an animal WHILE IT IS LIVING. I am not at all against using animals as food if they are killed humanely FIRST. Eating an octopus means it dies slowly and in fear, while its sensitive legs are chewed to a pulp, and eventually its brain is crushed.

This is a response to this thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=106816381

In particular, the idea that an octopus is not intelligent and cannot feel pain:

Invertabraes are not known for feeling pain according to many scientific studies.

I'm going to do something terrible and start off by quoting Wikipedia, as I did in that thread, only because it's easier than trying to find several peer-reviewed articles that are viewable to people here (I have a university login that I use for article searches.)

It is also information that is in line with my own research, and it cites sources:

Octopuses are highly intelligent, probably more intelligent than any other order of invertebrates. The exact extent of their intelligence and learning capability is much debated among biologists,[1][2][3] but maze and problem-solving experiments have shown that they do have both short- and long-term memory. Their short lifespans limit the amount they can ultimately learn. There has been much speculation to the effect that almost all octopus behaviors are independently learned rather than instinct-based, although this remains largely unproven. They learn almost no behaviors from their parents, with whom young octopuses have very little contact.

An octopus has a highly complex nervous system, only part of which is localized in its brain. Two-thirds of an octopus's neurons are found in the nerve cords of its arms, which have a remarkable amount of autonomy. Octopus arms show a wide variety of complex reflex actions arising on at least three different levels of the nervous system. Some octopuses, such as the Mimic Octopus, will move their arms in ways that emulate the movements of other sea creatures.

In laboratory experiments, octopuses can be readily trained to distinguish between different shapes and patterns. They have been reported to practice observational learning,[4] although the validity of these findings is widely contested on a number of grounds.[1][2] Octopuses have also been observed in what some have described as play: repeatedly releasing bottles or toys into a circular current in their aquariums and then catching them.[5] Octopuses often break out of their aquariums and sometimes into others in search of food. They have even boarded fishing boats and opened holds to eat crabs.[3]

In some countries, octopuses are on the list of experimental animals on which surgery may not be performed without anesthesia. In the UK, cephalopods such as octopuses are regarded as honorary vertebrates under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 and other cruelty to animals legislation, extending to them protections not normally afforded to invertebrates.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus

The complex nervous system leads us to the understanding that they feel pain. They must have a highly attuned sense of touch in order to forage, so they will also be able to feel other sensory input. Animals that can grope their way over rocks and lcoate prey that way are going to know full well when you chew them up while they are still conscious. Just because we cannot show that SOME invertebrates feel pain does not mean we can apply that to all of them. An octopus is a far cry from an earthworm.



In her article "Cephalopod consciousness: Behavioral evidence," Jennifer A. Mather writes the following abstract:

Behavioural evidence suggests that cephalopod molluscs may have a form of primary consciousness. First, the linkage of brain to behaviour seen in lateralization, sleep and through a developmental context is similar to that of mammals and birds. Second, cephalopods, especially octopuses, are heavily dependent on learning in response to both visual and tactile cues, and may have domain generality and form simple concepts. Third, these animals are aware of their position, both within themselves and in larger space, including having a working memory of foraging areas in the recent past. Thus if using a ?global workspace? which evaluates memory input and focuses attention is the criterion, cephalopods appear to have primary consciousness. [Copyright 2008 Elsevier]

Consciousness & Cognition; Mar2008, Vol. 17 Issue 1, p37-48, 12p

Here is an article that explains how some octopus thinking is diffuse rather than brain-centered: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1529397.stm

This goes along well with their need to be able to change color and pattern very rapidly for camouflage and communication. This article in particular addresses the need for an specialized and eleborate nervous system for their arms. Remember, a back bone is not needed for a nervous system, thus they can and do feel pain. You cannot lump all invertebrates together in that. They have an very well-developed sense of touch that is used to forage - probably far more finely tuned than your hands. Can you imagine someone chomping away at your fingers because they find it important to their taste buds and culture?



This is a very long and in-depth article that seems quite objective about their intelligence: http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines...6/cephpod.html

A lot of good info there on actual studies. It appears the the octopus may be capable of learning from others of its species rather than through the usual means used in laboratory studies of them. This needs more research, but is a huge indicator fo intelligence if true. Not all mammals are capable of accomplishing this, much less invertebrates.

[LunicaAshes]

Another article: http://www.nwf.org/nationalwildlife/...604&issueId=53

The central nervous system of the octopus is among the largest and most complex in the invertebrate world, rivaling that of many vertebrates, including birds and fish.

Also, note that an octopus naturally has a short lifespan. The ones being studied are probably around for two years at the most, so the fact that they can learn so much so quickly must be kept in mind.

[Uninspired123]

stabarella/jassdolly: STFU you need to GTFO because you eat dead people, STFU you all are stupid im done here with this stupid thread.


does that about sum it up?

[Rune]

Food chain people..... octopus is below people, end of story.

[Dangerous E]

Octopus makes for good sushi. The octopus might feel pain, but my tummy feels good.

[AKR]

stabarella/jassdolly: STFU you need to GTFO because you eat dead people, STFU you all are stupid im done here with this stupid thread.


does that about sum it up?

Perfectly.

Food chain people..... octopus is below people, end of story.

No, it's not the end of the story. You do nothing to justify eating an animal alive. Just because you're capable of doing something to a "lesser" creation doesn't mean you should. If you want to play by those rules, I'm going to start killing all of those humans I said I would eat if their meat was available. Hey, as long as I can overpower them/outsmart them, they are below me on the food chain. F*ck emotions and pain. What do I care. I mean, humans aside, can you imagine eating a primate alive? You'd have to be some sort of a sociopath to do that.

[Johnnybomb]

Perfectly.




No, it's not the end of the story. You do nothing to justify eating an animal alive. Just because you're capable of doing something to a "lesser" creation doesn't mean you should. If you want to play by those rules, I'm going to start killing all of those humans I said I would eat if their meat was available. Hey, as long as I can overpower them/outsmart them, they are below me on the food chain. F*ck emotions and pain. What do I care. I mean, humans aside, can you imagine eating a primate alive? You'd have to be some sort of a sociopath to do that.

Live squid dipped in soy sauce and hot sauce is good. Very tasty especially when the Octopus has it's tentacles wrapped around your face trying to get out of your mouth. Yes I'm a heartless piece of **** and a sociopath like probably a billion other Asians in this world. U mad?

[Dangerous E]

Justification: I'm HUNGRY! YEAH!

[QuicksandATL]

not the end of the story. You do nothing to justify eating an animal alive. Just because you're capable of doing something to a "lesser" creation doesn't mean you should. If you want to play by those rules, I'm going to start killing all of those humans I said I would eat if their meat was available. Hey, as long as I can overpower them/outsmart them, they are below me on the food chain. F*ck emotions and pain. What do I care. I mean, humans aside, can you imagine eating a primate alive? You'd have to be some sort of a sociopath to do that.

You're damn right it doesn't matter. What difference does it make if we're all just an accidental conglomeration of cells with no purpose?

[Rune]

No, it's not the end of the story. You do nothing to justify eating an animal alive. Just because you're capable of doing something to a "lesser" creation doesn't mean you should. If you want to play by those rules, I'm going to start killing all of those humans I said I would eat if their meat was available. Hey, as long as I can overpower them/outsmart them, they are below me on the food chain. F*ck emotions and pain. What do I care. I mean, humans aside, can you imagine eating a primate alive? You'd have to be some sort of a sociopath to do that.

Why should I have to justify eating something?

I guess we should stop all those bully lions from eating gazelles too, I mean, beginning to feed on something before it's dead.. the horror!

Damn hippies.

[FIVE OAKES]

Food chain people..... octopus is below people, end of story.

And?

You don't walk onto a farm and take a bite out of a cow's ass while he's chewing his cud, do you?

You don't get served a live hen at KFC, do you?

Hell - you probably don't even eat many raw vegetables, so why eat living octopi?

You're damn right it doesn't matter. What difference does it make if we're all just an accidental conglomeration of cells with no purpose?

Why are you trying to bring religion into this?

[Dangerous E]

They feel pain when you cook them, so, shut the hell up.

[Rune]

^^ what he said.

and...

Hell - you probably don't even eat many raw vegetables, so why eat living octopi?

You ever eaten octopus?

You ever eaten frozen octopus?

You ever eaten just killed octopus?

It just keeps tasting better the more alive you get it... I can't help that.

[FIVE OAKES]

Why should I have to justify eating something?

I guess we should stop all those bully lions from eating gazelles too, I mean, beginning to feed on something before it's dead.. the horror!

Damn hippies.

Like I said in the other thread - if you want to eat living animals, go hunt them in their own habitat where they at least have a chance. Until then, don't compare yourself to a lion.

They feel pain when you cook them, so, shut the hell up.

Not if they're dead, genius.

[QuicksandATL]

Why are you trying to bring religion into this?

I'm not? I'm saying it doesn't matter since we are all just an accident. Consciousness is an illusion remember?

i r computor

[Rune]

Like I said in the other thread - if you want to eat living animals, go hunt them in their own habitat where they at least have a chance. Until then, don't compare yourself to a lion.

They were hunted in their habitat, how the f**k do you think we got them to shore? Magic?

It's not my fault we can invent a net and a lion can't.

[Dangerous E]

Not if they're dead, genius.

Ok, they feel pain while you're killing them.

[Rune]

Ok, they feel pain while you're killing them.

But if you kill it quickly you don't hurt the octopus' feelings.

[FIVE OAKES]

They were hunted in their habitat, how the f**k do you think we got them to shore? Magic?

It's not my fault we can invent a net and a lion can't.

You didn't invent the net. You never even saw the boat that used the net to catch the octopus. Somebody lays it on your plate. All you do is pay yer tree fiddy.

The least you could do is give the damn thing a quick death.

[Dangerous E]

You guys are nuts.

[FIVE OAKES]

Ok, they feel pain while you're killing them.

Ok. I'll give you two scenarios. Tell me which one you prefer.

1. Being shot between the eyes.
2. Being fed feet first into a wood chipper.

[Rune]

You didn't invent the net. You never even saw the boat that used the net to catch the octopus. Somebody lays it on your plate. All you do is pay yer tree fiddy.

The least you could do is give the damn thing a quick death.

And then you get to kill and eat it... Seems a little more connected to the food than getting a cheeseburger at McD's where you never even have to deal with death. But at least the cow that you ate that lived in a cage got a humane death by bolt to the head.


BTW, never said I invented the net.. and why would I have to, it's already been done. It's called borrowing ideas, a common practice in the real world.

[Dangerous E]

Ok. I'll give you two scenarios. Tell me which one you prefer.

1. Being shot between the eyes.
2. Being fed feet first into a wood chipper.

I'd kick your ****ing ass.

[FIVE OAKES]

You guys are nuts.

Your nuts are guys.

And then you get to kill and eat it...

I'd kick your ****ing ass.

Okay. So next time you want a steak, go kick a cow's ass.

[Dangerous E]

Okay. So next time you want a steak, go kick a cow's ass.

Actually, I help my father-in-law slaughter his cattle. So, I really do kick the cows ass before I eat it.

Our method, which is effective, is very crude. A sledge-hammer blow to the front of the skull.

[Rune]

Okay. So next time you want a steak, go kick a cow's ass.

Yeah, because I own a bunch of cows that I could just go butcher...

I've killed animals to eat them, your not going to ever make me feel guilty about that, a Tool song puts it quite well.. "life feeds on life, this is necessary". It sounds to me like your the one who couldn't deal with having to eat meat if it meant having to kill it first.

[FIVE OAKES]

Actually, I help my father-in-law slaughter his cattle. So, I really do kick the cows ass before I eat it.

Our method, which is effective, is very crude. A sledge-hammer blow to the front of the skull.

Why? You aren't strong enough to kill them with your bare hands? Pussy.

Yeah, because I own a bunch of cows that I could just go butcher...

I've killed animals to eat them, your not going to ever make me feel guilty about that, a Tool song puts it quite well.. "life feeds on life, this is necessary". It sounds to me like your the one who couldn't deal with having to eat meat if it meant having to kill it first.

LOL. I think you've lost sight of what this thread was about. Devouring live animals. Not killing them and then eating them.

[Rune]

LOL. I think you've lost sight of what this thread was about. Devouring live animals. Not killing them and then eating them.

There really is no difference. That's my point.

It's not like they sit there and torture the damn animals for fun, they eat them.

[FIVE OAKES]

There really is no difference. That's my point.

It's not like they sit there and torture the damn animals for fun, they eat them.

Meh. I know if I was going to be eaten by a tribe of cannibals, I would prefer that they kill me first.

Call me crazy.

[AKR]

You're damn right it doesn't matter. What difference does it make if we're all just an accidental conglomeration of cells with no purpose?

I'm sorry you'd turn into a sobbing, pathetic mess, or that you'd go around torturing things while you gnawed on them, if you didn't have a murderious god to give you orders, but some of us don't work that way.

Why should I have to justify eating something?

Um, this isn't just about eating something; it's specifically about eating something alive. You don't think you need a justification for that? Then why do I need a justification for eating my neighbor alive? Or torturing kittens for amusement? Or raping babies because I hate babies?

I guess we should stop all those bully lions from eating gazelles too, I mean, beginning to feed on something before it's dead.. the horror!

The difference is we are quite capable of killing animals in a quick, relatively painless method; other animals do not have these skills. There is no need to eat something a live in order to get food. The only reason people have for eating something alive is for the taste, and that's pretty f*cking heartless.

Damn hippies.

Damn ignorant people. I guess because I don't see anything great about eating another being alive I'm a hippy? Wow, the definition is being stretched pretty wide these days.

Live squid dipped in soy sauce and hot sauce is good. Very tasty especially when the Octopus has it's tentacles wrapped around your face trying to get out of your mouth. Yes I'm a heartless piece of **** and a sociopath like probably a billion other Asians in this world. U mad?

I never said anyone is a sociopath for eating an octopus alive; I was refering to primates. But my previous judgement on people who eat octopus alive still stands.

It just keeps tasting better the more alive you get it... I can't help that.

Oh, well I guess that justifies anything you do. Just so long as it feels better for you, you can do anything you want. Remember that when I bite your mother's head off while she's still alive.

And?

You don't walk onto a farm and take a bite out of a cow's ass while he's chewing his cud, do you?

You don't get served a live hen at KFC, do you?

Hell - you probably don't even eat many raw vegetables, so why eat living octopi?

lol, you crack me up.

Ok, they feel pain while you're killing them.

You can kill things without them even knowing what's happening. And the dumber a creature, the less aware they will be.

You guys are nuts.

This is about all I see you contribute to this section. Pretty insignificant and pointless.