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  1. #1
    Watch the triangle brah JAGERBOY's Avatar
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    Give me your best argument AGAINST evolution! Reps.

    So I need to write a paper and do a 30 minute presentation on the evidence for evolution. Now I don't want to do some cookie cutter topic like the evolution of the horse. So I want someone to give me their best argument against evolution, and I will do my presentation on it if its good. I will also post the paper on here after Im done. I want something relatively challenging that I can possibly learn something from. I may not use anyones idea, but if someone has a good argument against it, I will rep you and do my topic on it.

    Thanks.
    "If the data is overwhelmingly in favor of evolution, to deny that reality will make us a cult -- some odd group that is not really interacting with the world"- Evangelical Bible scholar Bruce Waltke
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  2. #2
    Here's beer Mr Beer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    Minimal gene-set concept. Micro-plasma genetalium is the smallest living organism known to exist and consists of almost 500 genes. Scientists have been trying to reduce the amount of genes necessary for a living thing to survive, but not even on paper can they go below 200 genes. Because theoretically as an evolutionist you would need to go from 0 genes and build up to go from hydrogen to human. A cell absolutely requires a specific amount of components, and in reality this would require at least 397 genes to be functional. Which means that for even the simplest cell, you would need to go from 0-397 genes in one shot. But there is no reductionist ability to go below that.
    That's an argument against the initial formation of a cell, it doesn't say anything about evolution.
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  3. #3
    Watch the triangle brah JAGERBOY's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    Sort of a creationist argument:

    Minimal gene-set concept. Micro-plasma genetalium is the smallest living organism known to exist and consists of almost 500 genes. Scientists have been trying to reduce the amount of genes necessary for a living thing to survive, but not even on paper can they go below 200 genes. Because theoretically as an evolutionist you would need to go from 0 genes and build up to go from hydrogen to human. A cell absolutely requires a specific amount of components, and in reality this would require at least 397 genes to be functional. Which means that for even the simplest cell, you would need to go from 0-397 genes in one shot. But there is no reductionist ability to go below that.
    Well, let me qualify my request by saying BIOLOGICAL evolution. I think thats more in the realm of chemical evolution, since the beginning life like "organisms" would have been more of a matter of chemistry than biology.
    "If the data is overwhelmingly in favor of evolution, to deny that reality will make us a cult -- some odd group that is not really interacting with the world"- Evangelical Bible scholar Bruce Waltke
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  4. #4
    Watch the triangle brah JAGERBOY's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    It shows that evolutionists can't show the origin of anything. For example how an insect without wings gets to an insect with wings.
    So irreducible complexity? Meh, thats been done a million times.

    Simply put, evolution does not state that a population of insects goes from wingless, to suddenly winged.
    "If the data is overwhelmingly in favor of evolution, to deny that reality will make us a cult -- some odd group that is not really interacting with the world"- Evangelical Bible scholar Bruce Waltke
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  5. #5
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    Where is the fossil for this????
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    Whoops. This one has been debunked already:

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    Cambrian Explosion

    First multicelluar animals ~ 640 MYA - little diversity
    Cambrian Explosion ~ 530 MYA - great diversity

    In a very short amount of time (~30 million years) there was rapid diversification:

    -Evolution of eyes.
    -Evolution of hard structures that could fossilize
    -First appearance of arthropods, molluscs, vertebrates.


    Here's a good article from Dawkin's site with some arguments against evolution.

    http://richarddawkins.net/article,10...dian-Unlimited

    Scroll down. The article is primarily about ID.
    Last edited by revkins; 04-15-2009 at 07:47 PM.
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  8. #8
    Adalek MareNostrum's Avatar
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    the master race came from Atlantis
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  9. #9
    Watch the triangle brah JAGERBOY's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by revkins View Post
    Cambrian Explosion

    First multicelluar animals ~ 640 MYA - little diversity
    Cambrian Explosion ~ 530 MYA - great diversity

    In a very short amount of time (~30 million years) there was rapid diversification:

    -Evolution of eyes.
    -Evolution of hard structures that could fossilize
    -First appearance of arthropods, molluscs, vertebrates.


    Here's a good article from Dawkin's site with some arguments against evolution.

    http://richarddawkins.net/article,10...dian-Unlimited

    Scroll down. The article is primarily about ID.
    In the running.
    "If the data is overwhelmingly in favor of evolution, to deny that reality will make us a cult -- some odd group that is not really interacting with the world"- Evangelical Bible scholar Bruce Waltke
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  10. #10
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    The problem is that every argument against evolution is now a worn-out old PRATT.

    Nothing's new so just go for the easiest thing to prove... like humans and modern apes sharing an ancestor.
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  11. #11
    Watch the triangle brah JAGERBOY's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JellySausage View Post
    The problem is that every argument against evolution is now a worn-out old PRATT.
    Good point.

    Nothing's new so just go for the easiest thing to prove... like humans and modern apes sharing an ancestor.
    This is what Im working on now, but might change it, which is why I started this thread.
    "If the data is overwhelmingly in favor of evolution, to deny that reality will make us a cult -- some odd group that is not really interacting with the world"- Evangelical Bible scholar Bruce Waltke
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  12. #12
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    Don't look any further. Here is article from Pubmed.

    Phylogenetic reconstruction using the complete genome sequence not only failed to recover the correct evolutionary history because of these convergent changes, but the true history was rejected as being a significantly inferior fit to the data.
    There, you'll find exceptions (read: excuses) to justify a theory that is based on random luck to explain the origin of specific structures
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by YusufIslam View Post
    Don't look any further. Here is article from Pubmed.



    There, you'll find exceptions (read: excuses) to justify a theory that is based on random luck to explain the origin of specific structures
    Selection is the opposite of random.

    That's an article aimed at evaluating the statistical dynamics of convergent evolution and makes an argument in considering it more carefully in further studies and weighs the situations where convergent evolution may be more apparent. There are no anti-evolution arguments in the article.
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  14. #14
    PhD in Truthology riptor's Avatar
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    Actually even the best arguments against evolution are poor. Probably the best argument is the fine tuning argument. Not that I find it a valid argument against evolution, but creationists often employ it. The Discovery Institute has an article that to them proves a finely tuned universe.

    1. If the initial explosion of the big bang had differed in strength by as little as 1 part in 1060, the universe would have either quickly collapsed back on itself, or expanded too rapidly for stars to form. In either case, life would be impossible. [See Davies, 1982, pp. 90-91. (As John Jefferson Davis points out (p. 140), an accuracy of one part in 10^60 can be compared to firing a bullet at a one-inch target on the other side of the observable universe, twenty billion light years away, and hitting the target.)

    2. Calculations indicate that if the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom, had been stronger or weaker by as little as 5%, life would be impossible. (Leslie, 1989, pp. 4, 35; Barrow and Tipler, p. 322.)

    3. Calculations by Brandon Carter show that if gravity had been stronger or weaker by 1 part in 1040, then life-sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible. (Davies, 1984, p. 242.)

    4. If the neutron were not about 1.001 times the mass of the proton, all protons would have decayed into neutrons or all neutrons would have decayed into protons, and thus life would not be possible. (Leslie, 1989, pp. 39-40 )

    5. If the electromagnetic force were slightly stronger or weaker, life would be impossible, for a variety of different reasons. (Leslie, 1988, p. 299.)
    http://www.discovery.org/scripts/vie...and=view&id=91

    Of course, they are assuming that life would need to be like it is now to exist. They are using backward thinking typical of creationists.
    Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
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    NOW GIMME SOME REPZZ!!111

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    Originally Posted by squanto View Post
    Selection is the opposite of random.

    That's an article aimed at evaluating the statistical dynamics of convergent evolution and makes an argument in considering it more carefully in further studies and weighs the situations where convergent evolution may be more apparent. There are no anti-evolution arguments in the article.
    I agree with you that this article is not anti-evolution but only for the conclusion because the experimental results say otherwise.
    The results say that you take DNA and construct entirely different trees. The results actually show that phylogenetic trees are failing evolution!

    So now you have horisontal gene transfer and convergent evolution to make up contradictions?!


    Originally Posted by Arbex View Post


    NOW GIMME SOME REPZZ!!111

    "The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger" Allah's Messenger (pbuh)
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    Originally Posted by Arbex View Post


    NOW GIMME SOME REPZZ!!111

    Sometimes I feel sure these two have got to be a Colbert style comedy team. But, sadly, my trueyness detector tells me otherwise.
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    Originally Posted by Arbex View Post


    NOW GIMME SOME REPZZ!!111

    I'll see your banana and raise you a jar of peanut butter.

    Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
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    Basically, why do we still have like monkeys, if monkeys evolved into humans? like why okay?
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    Originally Posted by joyofcesc View Post
    Basically, why do we still have like monkeys, if monkeys evolved into humans? like why okay?
    We evolved from apes, not monkeys.

    Although having a prehensile tail would be kind of cool at times.
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    it depends what the other person says. if they believe that animals slowly evolved just say how?

    how could an animal live with a halfway evolved digestive, or respiratory, or cardiovascular system? they couldnt..

    so if they believe that they evolved slowly over generations that doesnt make sense for the same reason listed above, the entire generation with only a half "evolved" respiratory system would instatly suffocate. die out, end of species.
    The answer to all your questions lies within this thread.
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=809027
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    DNA

    Evolution technically is not a theory....as a theory can be tested
    "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. "
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    SWIMMING IN the soundless sea, the shark has survived for millions of years, sleek as a knife blade and twice as dull. The shark is an organism wonderfully adapted to its environment. Pause. And then the bright brittle voice of logical folly intrudes: after all, it has survived for millions of years.

    This exchange should be deeply embarrassing to evolutionary biologists. And yet, time and again, biologists do explain the survival of an organism by reference to its fitness and the fitness of an organism by reference to its survival, the friction between concepts kindling nothing more illuminating than the observation that some creatures have been around for a very long time. "Those individuals that have the most offspring," writes Ernst Mayr, the distinguished zoologist, "are by definition . . . the fittest ones." And in Evolution and the Myth of Creationism, Tim Berra states that "[f]itness in the Darwinian sense means reproductive fitness-leaving at least enough offspring to spread or sustain the species in nature."

    This is not a parody of evolutionary thinking; it is evolutionary thinking. Que sera, sera.

    Evolutionary thought is suffused in general with an unwholesome glow. "The belief that an organ so perfect as the eye," Darwin wrote, "could have been formed by natural selection is enough to stagger anyone." It is. The problem is obvious. "What good," Stephen Jay Gould asked dramatically, "is 5 percent of an eye?" He termed this question "excellent."

    The question, retorted the Oxford professor Richard Dawkins, the most prominent representative of ultra-Darwinians, "is not excellent at all":

    Vision that is 5 percent as good as yours or mine is very much worth having in comparison with no vision at all. And 6 percent is better than 5, 7 percent better than 6, and so on up the gradual, continuous series.

    But Dawkins, replied Phillip Johnson in turn, had carelessly assumed that 5 percent of an eye would see 5 percent as well as an eye, and that is an assumption for which there is little evidence. (A professor of law at the University of California at Berkeley, Johnson has a gift for appealing to the evidence when his opponents invoke theory, and vice versa.)

    Having been conducted for more than a century, exchanges of this sort may continue for centuries more; but the debate is an exercise in irrelevance. What is at work in sight is a visual system, one that involves not only the anatomical structures of the eye and forebrain, but the remarkably detailed and poorly understood algorithms required to make these structures work.

    "When we examine the visual mechanism closely," Karen K. de Valois remarked recently in Science, "although we understand much about its component parts, we fail to fathom the ways in which they fit together to produce the whole of our complex visual perception."

    These facts suggest a chastening reformulation of Gould's "excellent" question, one adapted to reality: could a system we do not completely understand be constructed by means of a process we cannot completely specify?

    The intellectually responsible answer to this question is that we do not know--we have no way of knowing. But that is not the answer evolutionary theorists accept. According to Daniel Dennett (in Darwin's Dangerous Idea), Dawkins is "almost certainly right" to uphold the incremental view, because "Darwinism is basically on the right track." In this, he echoes the philosopher Kim Sterenly, who is also persuaded that "something like Dawkins's stories have got to be right" (emphasis added). After all, she asserts, "natural selection is the only possible explanation of complex adaptation."

    Dawkins himself has maintained that those who do not believe a complex biological structure may be constructed in small steps are expressing merely their own sense of "personal incredulity." But in countering their animadversions he appeals to his own ability to believe almost anything. Commenting on the (very plausible) claim that spiders could not have acquired their web-spinning behavior by a Darwinian mechanism, Dawkins writes: "It is not impossible at all. That is what I firmly believe and I have some experience of spiders and their webs." It is painful to see this advanced as an argument.

    this a good part of an article by David Berlinski.

    here are more of his articles.
    http://www.discovery.org/scripts/vie...BlogPosts=true
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    Originally Posted by Juelz919 View Post
    it depends what the other person says. if they believe that animals slowly evolved just say how?

    how could an animal live with a halfway evolved digestive, or respiratory, or cardiovascular system? they couldnt..

    so if they believe that they evolved slowly over generations that doesnt make sense for the same reason listed above, the entire generation with only a half "evolved" respiratory system would instatly suffocate. die out, end of species.
    Originally Posted by William McC
    this a good part of an article by David Berlinski.

    here are more of his articles.
    http://www.discovery.org/scripts/vie...BlogPosts=true
    Without going into detail about the specific claims, these are nothing more than the old "half a wing" arguments. Creationists often assume that a complex organ must arise in one step or it will be useless. A 'partially' formed one thing may be a 'fully' formed something else. For example, in the animal kingdom simple creatures have no circulatory system; slightly less simple creatures have a muscular tube to push blood; fish have a single circuit system with a two-chambered heart; amphibians have a three chambered heart, but there is some mixing of blood; reptiles have either a three chambered heart or a four chambered heart that is not fully developed; birds and mammals have a four chambered heart with a two-way system; the proteins needed to have a clotting system already existed because they had different functions; gene duplication would occur, and when the mutation was beneficial natural selection would take over.

    Here is a nice article that covers the half a wing argument.
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...is-no-use.html
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    Originally Posted by riptor View Post
    Without going into detail about the specific claims, these are nothing more than the old "half a wing" arguments. Creationists often assume that a complex organ must arise in one step or it will be useless. A 'partially' formed one thing may be a 'fully' formed something else. For example, in the animal kingdom simple creatures have no circulatory system; slightly less simple creatures have a muscular tube to push blood; fish have a single circuit system with a two-chambered heart; amphibians have a three chambered heart, but there is some mixing of blood; reptiles have either a three chambered heart or a four chambered heart that is not fully developed; birds and mammals have a four chambered heart with a two-way system; the proteins needed to have a clotting system already existed because they had different functions; gene duplication would occur, and when the mutation was beneficial natural selection would take over.

    Here is a nice article that covers the half a wing argument.
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...is-no-use.html
    I think I see what you mean. However, wouldn?t the mutation be harmful? For instance, if an amphibian?s heart mutated into the beginnings of a four chambered heart, would that be detrimental to the creatures survival?

    I understand that because x is not fully b does not mean x is not still an x, but how does that mean Darwinian evolution is still plausible? X is still an x but you have to show why we should believe x becomes b.
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    mine isnt the halfwing "theory"
    mine has nothing to do with wings, a bird could survive without a wing, could something evolving from whatever into a human survive without lungs?

    and how long would a bird with half a wing last in the wild anyway? the whole thing is based on survival of the fittest right? a hilf winged bird would get eaten immediately. and the species would be gone
    The answer to all your questions lies within this thread.
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    Explain the evolution of harvester ant behaviour. I can't find a decent link but its in David Attenborough's Life underground series.

    The documentry explains there are 2 rivival populations of havester ants. A diurnal sub-species and a nocturnal sub-species. Both live in the desert and rely on fallen seeds for the main food supply.

    The day ants come out in the early morning to collect seeds but only have a window of appr. 4 hours to collect seeds before the suns heat gets to intense and they have to retreat to ground. This is enough time to collect virtually all the seeds in the proximity of the nest.

    The night ants, come out suprises suprises at night to do the same thing although most to the seeds have been collected by the day ants.

    The Night ants have evolved the behaviour to collect small stones instead and place them in the opening of the Day ants burrows. As a conseqence the day ants apon awaking find that there burrow entrances have been blocked by little stones and so they tirelessly spend hours removing the obstruction.

    However now they have less time to harvest seeds and end up leaving many behind. The night ants now collect these remaining seeds at night and place more stones at the Day ants door. rinse repeat.


    Explain that! bearing in mind only the Queen and 1 male ant pass on the DNA.
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    Originally Posted by William McC View Post
    I think I see what you mean. However, wouldn?t the mutation be harmful? For instance, if an amphibian?s heart mutated into the beginnings of a four chambered heart, would that be detrimental to the creatures survival?

    I understand that because x is not fully b does not mean x is not still an x, but how does that mean Darwinian evolution is still plausible? X is still an x but you have to show why we should believe x becomes b.
    I'm not an expert on circulatory systems, but from what I understand the circulatory system basically moves blood through the body so nutrients and oxygen can get where it needs to be. In simple creatures, like sponges, they just get what they need via osmosis. Worms don't really have much of a circulatory system, they just have a tube and a muscle pushes blood through the tube. Fish have a heart, but the oxygenated and de-oxygenated blood mixes together. The hearts of more complex creatures works to separate the blood. Anything that would allow the blood to stay separate would be selected for, because it more efficiently allows oxygen and nutrients to move through the body.
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    Originally Posted by Juelz919 View Post
    mine isnt the halfwing "theory"
    mine has nothing to do with wings, a bird could survive without a wing, could something evolving from whatever into a human survive without lungs?

    and how long would a bird with half a wing last in the wild anyway? the whole thing is based on survival of the fittest right? a hilf winged bird would get eaten immediately. and the species would be gone
    It's called the half a wing claim because creationists often say that unless something is fully formed it is useless, like half a wing. A partially formed one thing might be a fully formed something else. Wings are not necessarily used for flight. They are used for courtship displays. They can be used for gliding, much like a flying squirrel uses its skin folds to glide. An interesting hypothesis states that wings were first used by the ancestors of birds to help them quickly run up steep slopes to escape predators. In fact there are some birds who do flap there wings to traverse steep inclines. So in summary, just because an organ is used for something now, it doesn't mean that was always its primary function.
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    Originally Posted by riptor View Post
    It's called the half a wing claim because creationists often say that unless something is fully formed it is useless, like half a wing. A partially formed one thing might be a fully formed something else. Wings are not necessarily used for flight. They are used for courtship displays. They can be used for gliding, much like a flying squirrel uses its skin folds to glide. An interesting hypothesis states that wings were first used by the ancestors of birds to help them quickly run up steep slopes to escape predators. In fact there are some birds who do flap there wings to traverse steep inclines. So in summary, just because an organ is used for something now, it doesn't mean that was always its primary function.
    i understand but you keep using wings for an example, and you keep using half for an example, lets talk about how a beginning version of a human survived with non functioning systems within their body?
    The answer to all your questions lies within this thread.
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=809027
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