Routines and Advice *updated*

[N@tural1]

If you willing to put strength first than SS is the BEST program you're going to find.

kziwarrior.

There is no 'best'.

[kziwarrior]

kziwarrior.

There is no 'best'.

True.
In my experience over the years SS (or similar programs) have always seemed to give the best gains especially for beginners. I've not yet seen one person (experienced lifters excluded) that has not gotten great gains from a SS type program, with proper effort put forth on their end of course (rest and diet). And the focus on compound lifts will be of far better use for him as a wrestler than a split routine or any assortment of isolation exercises (assuming he is lifting to aid his wrestling and not for aesthetic reasons).

[N@tural1]

proper effort put forth on their end of course (rest and diet). And the focus on compound lifts will be of far better use for him as a wrestler than a split routine or any assortment of isolation exercises

The above is applicable to many routines. Sure SS is a great beginners program hence why I included it in the OP but the principles of progression in the compound lifts is not SS exclusive.

[kziwarrior]

The above is applicable to many routines. Sure SS is a great beginners program hence why I included it in the OP but the principles of progression in the compound lifts is not SS exclusive.

Indeed, many of the principles Rippetoe bring forth in Practical Programing will apply to just about any routine, and any lifter regardless of experience for that matter.

As far as rating/comparing programs I'll try to be a little less critical. I'll admit my potential bias in that area . Though I also try to remember to put in that my advice is generally aimed towards a particular lifter/person. And why I carry the signature that I do . Thanks for keeping me in line, hope I'm not hijacking your thread.

[AirLyle]

GOALS

1) Go from being able to do ZERO Pull Ups to being able to do 10 Pull Ups in 6 weeks.

2) Go from a 14 minute 1.5 Mile to a 10 min 30 sec 1.5 mile in 6 weeks.

3) Go from 206lbs to 175lbs in 4 months.

Mon/Wed/Fri

4 x 12 Barbell Curls
4 x 12 Military Press
4 x 12 Dumbbell Flyes
4 x 12 Tricep Extensions
4 x 12 Hanging Leg Raises

3 x 6 Assisted Pull Ups
3 x 6 Lateral Pull Downs

Mon/Tue/Wed/Thurs/Fri

4 x 25 Sit Ups
4 x 25 Push Ups

3 Mile Jog/Run
30 Minute Swim

[kziwarrior]

GOALS

1) Go from being able to do ZERO Pull Ups to being able to do 10 Pull Ups in 6 weeks.

2) Go from a 14 minute 1.5 Mile to a 10 min 30 sec 1.5 mile in 6 weeks.

3) Go from 206lbs to 175lbs in 4 months.

Mon/Wed/Fri

4 x 12 Barbell Curls
4 x 12 Military Press
4 x 12 Dumbbell Flyes
4 x 12 Tricep Extensions
4 x 12 Hanging Leg Raises

3 x 6 Assisted Pull Ups
3 x 6 Lateral Pull Downs

Mon/Tue/Wed/Thurs/Fri

4 x 25 Sit Ups
4 x 25 Push Ups

3 Mile Jog/Run
30 Minute Swim

First let me say congrats on your progress so far for loosing 70#+. Now on to the rest. Sorry to sound negative but you're not likely to make the first two goals at the same time, but then I'm not sure of your progress so far so don't take this personally. Here's the problem(s), IMHO. 1) requires the building of strength, a considerable amount given your weight and the fact you can't do a single pull-up yet. 2) requires a fairly decent aerobic routine (i.e. LOTS of aerobic training) that will make it even harder to gain the strength you need to achieve goal 1. On top of that you're looking to loose weight so you're likely running a caloric deficit making it harder to achieve goal 1 (though the weight goal is reasonable).

For most people, particularly beginners you can train for strength and get good gains or train cardio and get great results (weight lose especially) but not both. Training both very hard will make you crash (unless you're a young teenager or have great genetics).

To start I generally don't like to put a time-frame for goals, least not for beginners. The goals themselves are great (specific number of pull-ups a specific time for your run) but to put a time frame on them if you don't have an idea of your potential is just inviting trouble.

As for the program/routine... well there's to much to go into. You should consider going back to the OP and look into one of the starting routines. You routine lacks any compound lifts and no leg work, both of which are essential to your goals (weight loss and strength gains). Also the strength you get from the compound lifts will aid you in BT when you get there (which I'm guessing is why you have set your goals like you have). You may also want to check with your local AirForce recruitment office. Many of the recruitment centers now offer personal training for their recruits (because the nation has become so fat and lazy a growing number of people can't pass the basic requirements even straight out of HS).

Also check this article out, it should help. http://www.elitefts.com/documents/pu...rogression.htm there is another article there if you can do a few to start. And that is a decent place for good articles if you can search through them.

[AirLyle]

First let me say congrats on your progress so far for loosing 70#+. Now on to the rest. Sorry to sound negative but you're not likely to make the first two goals at the same time, but then I'm not sure of your progress so far so don't take this personally. Here's the problem(s), IMHO. 1) requires the building of strength, a considerable amount given your weight and the fact you can't do a single pull-up yet. 2) requires a fairly decent aerobic routine (i.e. LOTS of aerobic training) that will make it even harder to gain the strength you need to achieve goal 1. On top of that you're looking to loose weight so you're likely running a caloric deficit making it harder to achieve goal 1 (though the weight goal is reasonable).

For most people, particularly beginners you can train for strength and get good gains or train cardio and get great results (weight lose especially) but not both. Training both very hard will make you crash (unless you're a young teenager or have great genetics).

To start I generally don't like to put a time-frame for goals, least not for beginners. The goals themselves are great (specific number of pull-ups a specific time for your run) but to put a time frame on them if you don't have an idea of your potential is just inviting trouble.

As for the program/routine... well there's to much to go into. You should consider going back to the OP and look into one of the starting routines. You routine lacks any compound lifts and no leg work, both of which are essential to your goals (weight loss and strength gains). Also the strength you get from the compound lifts will aid you in BT when you get there (which I'm guessing is why you have set your goals like you have). You may also want to check with your local AirForce recruitment office. Many of the recruitment centers now offer personal training for their recruits (because the nation has become so fat and lazy a growing number of people can't pass the basic requirements even straight out of HS).

1) Thanks

2) Ive lost 104lbs in 12 months, not 70, lol.

3) I have a time frame since Ive joined the military and have to test for my Special Forces TACP job in 8 weeks.

4) The recruiter doesnt have any ideas, he thought my plan looked great. I was bored so I thought I would post it here.

5) I dont really want to lift to body build, just to get strength for Push Ups/Pull Ups really just upper body.

6) I dont have legs because I run and swim and dont see a point.

[kziwarrior]

1) Thanks

2) Ive lost 104lbs in 12 months, not 70, lol.

3) I have a time frame since Ive joined the military and have to test for my Special Forces TACP job in 8 weeks.

4) The recruiter doesnt have any ideas, he thought my plan looked great. I was bored so I thought I would post it here.

5) I dont really want to lift to body build, just to get strength for Push Ups/Pull Ups really just upper body.

6) I dont have legs because I run and swim and dont see a point.

1/2) Great job on the loss
3) well some people work better under pressure, so good luck
4) That surprises me, may just be the city/state you're in, in know the ones here in Nashville and in Charlotte are taking huge steps to get people in shape
5) The programs in the OP are NOT bodybuilding programs, they are strength programs, YOUR program (isolation lifts with lots of reps) is more in lines of a bodybuilding program than it is for strength gains
6) legs are the KEY to getting stronger, see a few posts up the conversation about hormone response. And running and swimming are great cardio but don't produce the stress that the big lifts will to generate the hormone response.

[AirLyle]

3) well some people work better under pressure, so good luck
4) That surprises me, may just be the city/state you're in, in know the ones here in Nashville and in Charlotte are taking huge steps to get people in shape
5) The programs in the OP are NOT bodybuilding programs, they are strength programs, YOUR program (isolation lifts with lots of reps) is more in lines of a bodybuilding program than it is for strength gains
6) legs are the KEY to getting stronger, see a few posts up the conversation about hormone response. And running and swimming are great cardio but don't produce the stress that the big lifts will to generate the hormone response.

3) Yeah all I do is workout, watch tv, surf online, eat, and sleep.

4) Yeah I guess its different everywhere. Oh well.

5) Im not arguing but if you have time can you explain on my workout is geared towards bodybuilding? Like whats your definition of bodybuilding?

6) How do you get that Legs are key to being stronger? Your legs have nothing todo with your upperbody, last I checked atleast

[kziwarrior]

5) Im not arguing but if you have time can you explain on my workout is geared towards bodybuilding? Like whats your definition of bodybuilding?

6) How do you get that Legs are key to being stronger? Your legs have nothing todo with your upperbody, last I checked atleast

5) strength come from low reps and sets at very high weight (i.e. 3 sets of 5 reps at 90% of your max). your 4x12 sets (or whatever it was) would require you to use much less weight and therefore lead to less strength gain (do a google search, there's tons of studies and writeups on it. Personally IMHO that range of reps is useless... it doesn't build great strength and it doesn't produce enough hypertrophy for great bodybuilding results... I usually used but these will do:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne45.htm
http://www.ironmagazine.com/article196.html

6) Do some research... and as I said look a few posts up. It's well known/accepted that the legs are key to building muscle over your entire body (least for those that are not chemical-experiments or shooting roids). They have the ability to stimulate/release far higher levels of growth hormones and if you think for one second that doing a heavy, deep squat doesn't work your ENTIRE body than there's no hope for you... get under the bar and do some work.

[ItalianUzi]

Just what i needed.....i am a newbie but i love the advice, inspiration and direction i get from you guys......Thanks

Steve

[ericpad]

N@tural1 -

I know this goes against your advice (don't ask guys that are much bigger and stronger than you . . .) . .Just curious though . .what kind of a routine do you follow? I've been following a high volume 4 day body part split routine and I am starting up more of a strength based routine tomorrow. I'm really liking your 4 day hits each part twice a week routine and think I may give that a go. I was also looking at SS and Iron Addicts Simple Power based routine since I completely agree that heavy compounds are the key.

Eric

[kziwarrior]

N@tural1 -

I know this goes against your advice (don't ask guys that are much bigger and stronger than you . . .) . .Just curious though . .what kind of a routine do you follow? I've been following a high volume 4 day body part split routine and I am starting up more of a strength based routine tomorrow. I'm really liking your 4 day hits each part twice a week routine and think I may give that a go. I was also looking at SS and Iron Addicts Simple Power based routine since I completely agree that heavy compounds are the key.

Eric

It's not necessarily bad to ask people "bigger and stronger" than yourself but you have to keep in mind their goals may be far different than yours. If you're asking a power-lifter and you want to be a power-lifter it's great to ask them likewise with body-builders. It becomes problematic when you approach someone just because of their size/appearance and want to know what they are doing because you think/hope you can use their program.

Just came across this tonight while online. This article brings up some great points and there are some other great articles worth reading if you get the time.
Relative Strength

[ericpad]

It's not necessarily bad to ask people "bigger and stronger" than yourself but you have to keep in mind their goals may be far different than yours. If you're asking a power-lifter and you want to be a power-lifter it's great to ask them likewise with body-builders. It becomes problematic when you approach someone just because of their size/appearance and want to know what they are doing because you think/hope you can use their program.

Just came across this tonight while online. This article brings up some great points and there are some other great articles worth reading if you get the time.
Relative Strength

thanks, kziwarrior -

Definitely a good read. And thanks for the other replies as well.

Eric

[ericpad]

N@tural1 -

Regarding "a favorite of mine that hits each part twice per week"

Can I use heels elevated hack squats in place of leg presses? (I workout at home and don't have a leg press machine)

Is there any reason I couldn't I alternate between BB Row and Power cleans?

Thanks,

Eric

[dumdumz]

My knees are hurting pretty bad and today is squat day. Should I attempt to do my squats with a lower weight or should I substitute them with something else?

[kziwarrior]

My knees are hurting pretty bad and today is squat day. Should I attempt to do my squats with a lower weight or should I substitute them with something else?

As always the question of working-out with/through pain has to do with the type of pain. If it's soreness from a previous workout than yes, if it joint pain from a known issue (i.e. arthritis) than probably. IF the pain is from a muscle strain, injury or an unknown source than proceed with caution, i.e. start very light, if it doesn't get worse or inflamed proceed with small increments. If it gets worse or is painful through the entire ROM than probably best to lay off for a day.

Side note: Personally I find that for minor injuries taking the day completely off is better than just skipping a particular lift (e.g. squat). If you do the other lifts your body will still be focusing on recovering from the lift IN ADDITION to trying to heal the injury. Take the day and REST (i.e. do little or NOTHING) and just heal. You're NOT going to loose any progress from taking a day or two off. In fact depending on how long it's been since you've taken a break (and depending on the type of routine you have) you might actually be better off when you come back.

[dumdumz]

As always the question of working-out with/through pain has to do with the type of pain. If it's soreness from a previous workout than yes, if it joint pain from a known issue (i.e. arthritis) than probably. IF the pain is from a muscle strain, injury or an unknown source than proceed with caution, i.e. start very light, if it doesn't get worse or inflamed proceed with small increments. If it gets worse or is painful through the entire ROM than probably best to lay off for a day.

Side note: Personally I find that for minor injuries taking the day completely off is better than just skipping a particular lift (e.g. squat). If you do the other lifts your body will still be focusing on recovering from the lift IN ADDITION to trying to heal the injury. Take the day and REST (i.e. do little or NOTHING) and just heal. You're NOT going to loose any progress from taking a day or two off. In fact depending on how long it's been since you've taken a break (and depending on the type of routine you have) you might actually be better off when you come back.

I was able to squat with the usual weight I am progressing at but I wasn't able to go all the way down. Even with lighter weight I wasn't able to go all the way down before my knees started hurting too bad. I used to get knee pains in the army from running all the time and that's probably what's causing it again because I am running on off days.

[kziwarrior]

I was able to squat with the usual weight I am progressing at but I wasn't able to go all the way down. Even with lighter weight I wasn't able to go all the way down before my knees started hurting too bad. I used to get knee pains in the army from running all the time and that's probably what's causing it again because I am running on off days.

Time for a few days off and an anti-inflammatory regimen. I've got some pretty gad knees to, Flexamine works GREAT for me, others swear by fish-oil.

[TubbyKins]

Mon: Chest & Legs/calfs & Cardio
Tues: Back & traps w/ soccer (no need for cardio since im going to play soccer)
Wens: Shoulder & Biceps & Cardio
Thurs: Triceps w/soccer
Fri: Rest please?
Sat: Rest please?
Sun: Soccer w/ Rest please?

3sets of 8reps for all of them

Hows this routine look for an all body workout? My goal is just to look good/healthy and to burn off my little budda belly. Im thinking about doing this for 3weeks maybe? Then change my routine.

Weight: 182.6
BF: 11.8%
Height: 6'
Age:18

***EDIT*** How many times a day should i go to the gym with that routine? once? twice? three time? i go once a day but i can go more if needed

[irish27]

Thinking of changing to one of the workouts mentioned slightly altered, has anyone tried this type of routine for body building and what have your results been?

Workout on Mon/Wed/Fri/Mon and alternate workouts 1/2/3/4 etc...

Monday Squats - 3 X 5, 1 X 10
BB Rows - 4 X 6
Pull-Ups Overhand - 3 X 5 (weighted) 1 X 8
BB Curls - 2 X 10

Wedn Flat Bench - 2 X 5, 1 X 3, 2 X 8
Dips - 2 X 5 (weighted), 1 X failure (bodyweight)
DB OH Press - 3 X 8, 1 X 3
Side Laterals - 2 X 10
Skulls - 2 X 10

Friday Deadlifts - 2-3 X 5
Quad/Calves 2 X 10
DB Rows - 3 X 8
Pull-ups Underhand - 3 X 5 (weighted), 1 X failure (bodyweight)
Curls 2 X 5, 1 X 10


Monday DB/Incline Bench - 2 X 5, 2 X 8
DB Flyes - 2 X 8-12
Military Press - 3 X 8
Bent over Laterals - 2 X 10
Close-Grip Bench - 2 X 10

Thanks for taking time to read this!

[kziwarrior]

3sets of 8reps for all of them

Hows this routine look for an all body workout? My goal is just to look good/healthy and to burn off my little budda belly. Im thinking about doing this for 3weeks maybe? Then change my routine.

***EDIT*** How many times a day should i go to the gym with that routine? once? twice? three time? i go once a day but i can go more if needed

If you want a full-body routine consider compound lifts. If you are set with the split(s) than seriously up the sets and reps. The range you have is essentially worthless (i.e. not low enough for real strength gains and not high enough for hypertrophy).

If you have a "budda belly" either your BF is above 12% (home scales, and even the ones at the gym are not very accurate, way to many variables they should be used as a guide of progress, not for an actual measurement) or you are running a very high calorie deficit.

And no, you should only go to the gym once a day. Once you work out for the day your body should be allowed to recover (advanced BB excluded, as with most things in this thread).
In general 3 weeks isn't enough time for any results from any program (especially for beginners).

Thinking of changing to one of the workouts mentioned slightly altered, has anyone tried this type of routine for body building and what have your results been?

Personally it's rather spastic... It will cover a decent amount but not really enough of anything to accomplish much.
Squats only once a week? and no REAL other leg work (quad/calf 2x10 doesn't count as a real leg workout IMHO)?
As mentioned above, both posters should do a search on this site regarding reps... 8-12 range is pointless... it doesn't cause significant strength increase and doesn't give nearly enough for hypertrophy for mass/definition... Think about it, this type of routine is what MOST people in the gym do, and what most people have been doing for years with little to NO results... I can't figure out why people want to stick with stuff that doesn't work...

Decide on your primary goal(s) (e.g. functional strength or getting ripped) and go for a program that maximizes those goals... stop picking the "middle ground" and get some real results... if your goal is both (i.e. you want to get big and strong and ripped) that start with a strength program then switch to a hypertrophy routine. You'll get far better results alternating between the two than wasting your time with middle-ground BS.

[mordag]

read most of the thread.. quick question

current "Big 3" lifts are:

BB Bench: 235x6
Squat: 305x 8
DD: 315x6

Been working out for 2 years.. usually do a fullbody workout 3 times a week

Decent results.. hitting a plateau now.. tired of training just for strength and looking into gaining more mass

Would this split be good ? a 3 or 4 day split is what i'm looking for

A favorite of mine that hits each bodypart twice per week.

Day 1

4x Squats: 5 reps
3x Ham Work: 8 reps
3x BB or DB Row: 8 reps
2x Bicep Curls: 10 reps

Day 2

4x Bench Press: 5 reps
3x Military Press: 8 reps
3x Tricep Isolation: 8 reps
2x Ab/Calf Work: 15 reps

Day 3

4x Deadlifts: 5 reps
3x Pullups: 8 reps
3x Leg Press: 8 reps
2x Biceps Curls: 10 reps

Day 4

4x DB or Incline Press: 5 reps
3x Chest Dips: 8 reps
3x Side Lateral Raise: 8 reps
2x Ab/Calf Work: 15 reps

Day 1: On
Day 2: On
Day 3: Off
Day 4: On
Day 5: On
Day 6: Off
Day 7: Off

I did Day 1 yesterday, moving onto day 2 today

Btw, in this workout, do you use same weights for the whole set?

[irish27]

What's a good hypertrophy routine then?

[dumdumz]

What's a good hypertrophy routine then?

I'm thinking of trying out this one in a few more weeks but it looks like a lot of work and will probably lead to fatigue pretty quickly if your not eating and resting properly

Workout #1: Monday/Thursday

CHEST
Bench Press 3 X 8-12
Incline Press 3 X 8-12
Pullovers 3 X 8-12

BACK
Bent-Over Rows 3 X 8-12
Chin-Ups (do as many as you can at a time until you reach a total of 50 reps)

POWER TRAINING
Deadlifts 3 sets of 10, 6, 4 reps to failure

THIGHS
Squats 3 X 10-15
Lunges 3 X 10-15
Leg Curls 3 X 10-15

CALVES
Standing Calf Raises 5 X 15

ABDOMINALS
Crunches 5 X 25


Workout #2: Tuesday/Friday

SHOULDERS
Barbell Clean and Press 3 X 8-12
Dumbbell Side Lateral Raises 3 X 8-12

POWER TRAINING
Heavy Upright Rows 3 sets of 10, 6, 4 reps to failure
Push Presses 3 sets of 6, 4, 2 reps to failure

LOWER BACK
Straight-Leg Deadlifts 3 sets of 10, 6, 4 reps to failure
Good Mornings 3 sets of 10, 6, 4 reps to failure

UPPER ARMS
Standing Barbell Curls 3 X 8-12
Seated Alternating Dumbbell Curls 3 X 8-12
Close-Grip Tricep Press 3 X 8-12
Standing Reverse Cable Extensions 3 X 8-12

FOREARMS
Wrist Curls 3 X 8-12
Reverse Wrist Curls 3 X 8-12

ABDOMINALS
Reverse Crunches 5 X 25 reps

[kziwarrior]

I'm thinking of trying out this one in a few more weeks but it looks like a lot of work and will probably lead to fatigue pretty quickly if your not eating and resting properly

Any good program will "lead to fatigue..." if you're not eating and resting properly... and any good hypertrophy program SHOULD, and arguably MUST lead to fatigue even when you DO eat and rest properly, at least in the beginning until your body adapts.

The layout of that program is decent, but the reps should be higher (12 reps min.) across the board. Again do a search for reps ranges here or on google. And on the "to failure" lifts make sure you're getting at least 8-12 (more is better) before failure, this will likely mean adjusting the weight from your set weight. And if you have a spotter or other means doing some "negative" reps after failure is good to.

[N@tural1]

N@tural1 -

I know this goes against your advice (don't ask guys that are much bigger and stronger than you . . .) . .Just curious though . .what kind of a routine do you follow?

My own routines are very similar to the ones posted. Basic, simple, strength based though occasionally I train using a higher volume split.

[N@tural1]

N@tural1 -
Can I use heels elevated hack squats in place of leg presses?

Try a lunge variation, I like walking or reverse lunges.

Is there any reason I couldn't I alternate between BB Row and Power cleans?

Try it see how you get on though PC after squats maybe well be a bit too much.

[N@tural1]

What's a good hypertrophy routine then?

Do you think you'll not get bigger as you get stronger?

[kitarpyar]

N@t1,

If you were to do a full-body routine, would you go for the same big lifts all three days, or try to cycle the intensity, e.g. one of the three days being heavy 5 X 5, another day being moderate reps moderate weight (3 X 10) and a third day being light weight but high reps (high, but how high? 20?)

Got curious about intensity cycling on full-body routines after reading Casey Butt's posts in the full-body thread.