Big Compound Movements for Putting On Mass?

[MichaelChurilov]

I had an assessment with a trainer at my gym a couple weeks back, and he told me to stop pretending I was a pro bodybuilder and just completely neglect doing isolation movements.

Basically, hell to bicep isolation, tricep isolation, etc.

He suggests I do nothing but huge, heavy, compound movements.

For instance, Bench Presses, Rows, Squats, Deadlifts.

Alright, that seems like it MIGHT work. I can definetely see why it would. I've read from a few sources saying that compound huge movements release more muscle building hormones and such.

He also suggests I do all this in one day, as in full body workouts, rest a day or two or three, then repeat.

So a typical workout would like such:

4 x 8-12 Incline Bench Press
4 x 8-12 Flat Bench Press
2-4 x 8-12 Dumbell (Incline or Flat, alternate every workout) Bench Press

4 x 8-12 Cable Rows
4 x 8-12 Widegrip Pulldowns
2-4 8-12 Machine Rows

4 x 8-12 Squats
4 x 8-12 Deadlifts
2-4 x 8-12 Romanian Deadlifts

Ab Superset: Plank until failure followed by crunches until failure x 4


1) Does this seem like it would work to get bigger?
2) Would this not neglect a few key muscles, namely the Lateral Deltoid heads and the Posterior Deltoid Heads? Also the Trapezius? All the movements seem to not hit these.
3) Is a day or two enough rest for my body to be ready to take it again?
4) Is the routine highlighted any good?

Thanks all in advance, much appreciated, etc.

-Mike

[Pull-Up]

4 x 8-12 Cable Rows
4 x 8-12 Widegrip Pulldowns
2-4 8-12 Machine Rows

I would change that to

4 x 8-12 Pull-Ups
4 x 8-12 Barbell Rows
2-4 8-12 Cable Rows

also 2 deadlifts and squat 3x times a week during 1 session ain't so good idea
And less sets, maybe 3x for main movements

2) Would this not neglect a few key muscles, namely the Lateral Deltoid heads and the Posterior Deltoid Heads? Also the Trapezius? All the movements seem to not hit these.

U hit traps with deadlifts, however u could add lateral raises.

[ThiZzNation925]

Yes, that trainer is correct. Big compounds (bench, squat, row, deadlift, OH press) with heavy weights and low to moderate volume suits many beginners perfectly; it's exactly what they should be doing. Popular routines such as SS:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

And 5x5:

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm

are based around this.

[shaodw]

seems like you found the worlds first smart trainer, no stability ball for you

[Penhaligon]

Hi Mike,

Don't forget that what you eat is as important as your weight program. If you want to increase mass, eat 500+ cals above maintenance with lots of milk...keep it lean (veg and good protein) and you'll be a monster in no time!

[doing_stuff]

Smart trainer. You need to build a solid base and get strong before getting into isolation type bodybuilding routines.

Another routine based on 5x5 is Stronglifts - http://stronglifts.com/
Download the free ebook and take a look at it. Its a very basic beginner barbell workout which gets you doing all the compound lifts aswell as chin ups/pull ups and pushups.

[Blahplunger]

Hes right about the big compound movements.If you focus on those,it will demand less of your recovery ability and you will grow faster.Your smaller muscle groups will still grow as a result of the progress you make in your large lifts.Most people are better of doing this type of routine unless,you are using drugs or have great genetics(at least to start).

I dont agree with his exercise selection or the length between workouts.I fail to see how you can do four heavy sets of lat pulldowns with all your effort and then do justice to machine rows AND barbell rows.If you really worked your lat pulldowns you shouldnt have much left to do any back exercises.Or,you may be able to do them with a much reduced weight.Same with doing benchpresses,dumbells bench presses and incline bench presses.Way too much.No way you can do justice to the latter two exercises without drugs or being very genetically gifted.Maybe a super experienced lifter could get away with it.Also,squats followed by deadlifts is brutal training.That can be a good thing with PLENTY of rest and good nutrition.Usually its not though.

I also think most typical people need more than a day or twos rest between workouts.How can you do a heavy,hard workout,and be wiped out and sore the next day,and even think about training tommorrow or even the next day.I give myself four days between workouts.Most people train too much and it slows them down.Heres a good way to gind out how much time you need between workouts.Do a heavy workout and then keep track of how many days you are sore.Then add one day to make sure you are fully recovered.How do youf eel systemically after this time period?Do you feel physically ready to get back into the gym for another beating?If the answer is yes,then you should be ready.If you are able to keep this schedule for the long term and still make progress,then youve found the time that you need between workouts.I realize not all people get sore.It is a good indicator for most people though.

[rugbyfan88]

Personally i'd think something along these lines would be better:

A:
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
3xFailure Chins
Core work

B:
1x5 Deadlift
3x5 Standing/Incline Press
3x5 BB Row
Core Work

Performed 3 days per week.

I know you will most likely take one look and think it's not enough volume, doesn't hit every area of every muscle etc etc etc. But take it from someone who has trained using basic routines like this and the typical bodybuilding split, this is definitely the way to go in terms of size and strength gains for novices, once those weights start getting heavy you'll be glad you don't have any other crappy exercises to perform after.

[Blahplunger]

Heres what Im doing right now


Squat 1x20
Bench 2x10
Lat Pulldown 2x10
Leg Curl 2x10


While this may be a very brief workout,I put in full effort in each exercise.Believe me,your legs will be very fatigued after doing this with max effort.There wont be any thoughts of doing more leg work or more chest work or back work at different angles.If you can think about it,you didnt put in much effort.Youll be wasted the next day doing this routine and have stimulated growth while leaving your body the reserves to grow.Ive put on 20lb in the last 3 months doing this.1 month of that was with light weights as a break in.You dont need alot of exercises to gain.Eventually you will have to add some isolation exercises to maintain balance.Ive noticed growth in all areas of my body with this routine.

[rugbyfan88]

Whilst it's good that routine has worked for you i would say there are more efficient ways to train.

[Blahplunger]

What is inefficient about it?I honestly want to know.Id like your opinion.


Ive done the routines where you hit your muscles from 5 different angles.That ends in overtraining.Ive done more sets.That just means reduced effort for the first few sets with lighter weights.Volume is good as a variable.As a different way to stimulate growth.I dont think it is required at all to make great gains.Some people do better on high volume I agree.Most dont.

I agree this isnt for advanced bodybuilders.It is good for most people though.

[rugbyfan88]

I'm not talking about it being not enough volume etc.
You seem to have started off well with the squats and bench then for some reason put in leg curls and pulldowns, two fairly crappy exercises when compared to the previous two, each to their own but why not sub them for deadlifts and chins?

Also again each to their own but i would prefer multiple sets of lower reps heavier weight thus being easier to increase strength as opposed to 1 high rep set.
Again just my own opinions.

[Blahplunger]

You are right about the pulldowns and leg curls.Ive regreted starting with those two exercises.Lack of thought on my part.Id prefer to do stiff legged deadlifts and barbell rows.I just figured id keep doing them since I already started with them.Im not so sure that chins are better than pulldowns.I havent really looked into it much either.

20 rep squats are well known to increase mass.Ive done lower reps and they dont compare to 20 rep squats.My legs have shown the biggest increase in size of all my bodyparts.Google 20 rep squats and take a look.

[GuyJin]

While in essence I'd agree with the trainer about the big compound moves, the routine he gave you would have you doing two different types of deadlifts in one session--three days a week. For the average newbie, that amounts to overkill. Not to mention the sheer volume of it--too much, IMHO.

Now, keep in mind that some guys who are above average CAN do all that--the late, great, Reg Park comes to mind. Park was an absolute animal in the gym: Huge, strong as anything, well-proportioned and all natural. He could do a full-body routine like this and he wasn't exactly small. But Park was the exception, and not the rule.

FWIW, I think an excellent full-body routine for a newb would be something like Rippetoes's stuff, or Starr/Madcow's 5x5. Both of those routines stick in all the compounds, and you end up doing iso stuff one day a week. Many guys start off with routines like this, and for my money (which ain't worth much these days) you couldn't pick a better routine.

I'd add a codicil to this. Many guys have stated on this forum that they started off with splits and they progressed quickly, some to the point of working up to five or six days a week. But these guys--again--are the exception and not the rule. I really think most guys, unless they have the wherewithal to realize quickly that full-body is not for them and splits are better, should do these full-body routines and then, when they have a few months under their lifting belts, should add in two iso movements (or three at the most) per workout, and then, after a bit more time, move to a two-day split, keeping the compound moves and adding more sets if they can recover from them.

FWIW, I'd stick to doing either of the two routines mentioned above. Once you have some experience and you start gaining solid weight--and you MUST eat well and often--then use your "black box" and objectively analyze what needs to be done. If you think you're ready to add in more isos on the full-body, then do so gradually; if you want to split everything up, then again, I'd do it gradually to allow your body to adapt, and would do just a two-on, one-off routine to start, again, mainly compounds.

Just my suggestions here--sorry for the long post...

[rugbyfan88]

You are right about the pulldowns and leg curls.Ive regreted starting with those two exercises.Lack of thought on my part.Id prefer to do stiff legged deadlifts and barbell rows.I just figured id keep doing them since I already started with them.Im not so sure that chins are better than pulldowns.I havent really looked into it much either.

20 rep squats are well known to increase mass.Ive done lower reps and they dont compare to 20 rep squats.My legs have shown the biggest increase in size of all my bodyparts.Google 20 rep squats and take a look.

I'm definitely aware of the 20 rep squat routine but for me personally i like the aspect of being able to add a good amount of weight to the bar each time i squat and i just find that easier to do with lower reps, perhaps i'm just not mentally fit for 20 reppers lol.

[MichaelChurilov]

Sorry to mislead, that exact routine was not made by the trainer, that was made by me.

Since its a free assessment style thing, it wasn't a real session or anything and he really helped me focus on my form for squats. We took it aparat piece by piece and he's got me doing overhead squats with just the bar for a month to work on my balance. I posted when I was really tired, so I probably left that out.

Alright though I do see what is being said, its an overload of work.

I am eating clean, but I've got the fun task of trying to drop my bodyfat (I've been overweight my whole lift) and put on muscle, so I'm sticking to a high protein, medium amount of carbs - all compelx except immediately post workout, and low fat diet.

So I will reduce the sets, do one big movement per area, and train less frequently. I'll see how that goes.

Thanks for the help everyone!

-Mike