workouts without compounds?

[d3v]

I do a 5x5 routine using two workouts. workout A is 5x5 squat and 5x5 bench, workout B is 5x5 deadlift and 5x5 overhead press.

I can comfortably perform these two workouts week in week out, so much so that I feel I am under training.

Would adding two isolation workouts between my main workouts be of any use? I have always thought that any workout absent of heavy compound lifts is pretty much useless since it's the compound lifts that produce the testosterone and HGH releases in the body.

If I was to include two extra isolative workouts between my main workouts it will be something like biceps and traps for one day and triceps for the other. The tricep workout will be the furthest away from workout B because of the bench press knackaring the tri's.
Thing is though, are such isolation workouts of any use?

[chazzy1864]

Please, do not bring up the test or hgh release. Dumbest reason ever for justification of an exercise.


I wouldn't say add in other workouts per se, although you could. I would just add in some isos amongst your workouts. However if you are spent after the 5x5 workout, then sure, your in between days have an all iso workout.

[d3v]

Originally Posted by chazzy1864

Please, do not bring up the test or hgh release. Dumbest reason ever for justification of an exercise.

How come???

Originally Posted by chazzy1864

I wouldn't say add in other workouts per se, although you could. I would just add in some isos amongst your workouts. However if you are spent after the 5x5 workout, then sure, your in between days have an all iso workout.

Yes I am absolutely knackard after each 5x5 workout.

[chazzy1864]

Originally Posted by d3v

How come???

Yes, compounds have the release. But who cares? Any compound is good for it, but studies have shown that rest periods have a much greater dictation on the test and hgh releases. However after about 10 weeks of consistent training, even that doesn't have an effect.

Pick exercises that work the muscles you want. Don't pick exercises for the test releaz!!11!11

[d3v]

OK I guess you make sense. I am constantly learning so I'm always willing to change my philosophies and strategy's.

I did workout A earlier today so tomorrow I'll start a new workout isolating just the biceps with barbell curls and the traps with shrugs, then I'll do workout B the day after then I'll do the second iso workout for my triceps and I'll probably throw in the amazingly effective pull ups and bring myself back up to 7 reps like I used to do - **** I can barely do two pull ups nowadays!

[msm172021121]

so you only do 10 sets per workout right now?

[d3v]

Originally Posted by msm172021121

so you only do 10 sets per workout right now?

yes but I lift real heavy. I have trouble finishing the last rep of each set.
Why?

[jburd0003]

you arent doin nearly enough man. compound lifts are great for someone your size but that doesnt mean you should ONLY be doing compound. at 5'11" and only 157 lbs, you need to be doin a hell of a lot more than what youre doin.

try this routine http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/vinced3.htm

its based around compound lifts but still incorporates all the significant iso lifts too.

[DJAuto]

My shoulder routine is comprised entirely of isolation-type movements.

IMO, isolation is necessary for the bodybuilder.

[SquatTilYouDrop]

Originally Posted by DJAuto

My shoulder routine is comprised entirely of isolation-type movements.

IMO, isolation is necessary for the bodybuilder.

Too many people get caught up in terminology. Compound this and isolation that. If people just viewed them as important bb exercises instead of categorizing/labeling them, there would be far less confusion.

[d3v]

Originally Posted by jburd0003

you arent doin nearly enough man. compound lifts are great for someone your size but that doesnt mean you should ONLY be doing compound. at 5'11" and only 157 lbs, you need to be doin a hell of a lot more than what youre doin.

try this routine http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/vinced3.htm

its based around compound lifts but still incorporates all the significant iso lifts too.

I read your link dude, but I disagree about not doing enough. I work hard enough during my main compound workouts in that If I attempt to perform any lift at the end, say a barbell curl I can barely complete a single rep even at 50% of my 1RM. I sit down to take off my boots after workout and I swear I could just fall asleep right there on the chair. I'm literally burnt out after.

[msm172021121]

you have to be able to do more than 10 sets per workout if you want to gain. to each his own i guess but if i were you id rest more between sets and add about 6 more sets or so. do this even with 5x5's if you want and try 15 total sets-3 different exercises....idk maybe your way works well for you and if you're happy with it then stick to it

[d3v]

Originally Posted by msm172021121

you have to be able to do more than 10 sets per workout if you want to gain. to each his own i guess but if i were you id rest more between sets and add about 6 more sets or so. do this even with 5x5's if you want and try 15 total sets-3 different exercises....idk maybe your way works well for you and if you're happy with it then stick to it

Ok so your saying that even though I thoroughly exhaust my CNS, I should lower the weight to be able to add more overall reps????

If 10 sets of 5 reps exhausts me then surely that's all that's required for growth? Yes I am growing but then again I have no idea if I could be growing as fast as I could possibly be so maybe extra reps/sets would make a positive difference. I could add another exercise set I suppose, but I will have to reduce the weights I lift overall to accomadate the extra set.

[msm172021121]

Originally Posted by d3v

Ok so your saying that even though I thoroughly exhaust my CNS, I should lower the weight to be able to add more overall reps????

If 10 sets of 5 reps exhausts me then surely that's all that's required for growth? Yes I am growing but then again I have no idea if I could be growing as fast as I could possibly be so maybe extra reps/sets would make a positive difference. I could add another exercise set I suppose, but I will have to reduce the weights I lift overall to accomadate the extra set.

if you're growing and progressing dont change anything. if you hit a wall, change it then

[jgrube]

Originally Posted by d3v

I read your link dude, but I disagree about not doing enough. I work hard enough during my main compound workouts in that If I attempt to perform any lift at the end, say a barbell curl I can barely complete a single rep even at 50% of my 1RM. I sit down to take off my boots after workout and I swear I could just fall asleep right there on the chair. I'm literally burnt out after.

the reason you are this tired is because of 1. lack of sleep and/or 2. not eating anything pre-workout.

[jburd0003]

Originally Posted by jgrube

the reason you are this tired is because of 1. lack of sleep and/or 2. not eating anything pre-workout.

exactly.

[d3v]

I do eat a carb-rich meal pre-workout then a fruit and veg smoothie while I'm working out then a protein-rich meal an hour after I workout. So my nutrition is good.
But my sleeping patterns are a bit messed up. I certainly get at least 9 hours sleep every night but I go to sleep at various hours so I have no pattern.


Anyway why wouldn't heavy squatting make me feel sleepy? They are the most pysically demanding lift your body can do.

[jburd0003]

[QUOTE=d3v;315895791

Anyway why wouldn't heavy squatting make me feel sleepy? They are the most pysically demanding lift your body can do.[/QUOTE]

most people can handle more than 10 sets in one gym session man. you said you do 5 sets of squats, then 5 sets of bench press. thats really only like a half hour's worth of lifting. according to your join date and stats, you've been body building for a few years now, yet youre only 157 lbs so obviously what you're doing isnt working. change it up and eat bigger.

[boathead]

i've gained 55 lbs of lean muscle in 5 years by doing only compounds, and mostly in the 8 - 10 set range per workout.

two days ago i did this:
2 sets dls 225 x 15
2 sets rdls 225 x 10
2 sets overhead press 145 x 5
2 sets hang cleans 135 x 5

if you fellas can productively add sets to that, god bless you. for me, i am spent. my whole routine is based on: squats, dl's, bench, overhead press, pullups, cleans and rows. that's it.

oh yeah...sometimes i do 1 set per workout: 20 reps of squats.

my point is that people differ. i personally think most would do well to workout more intensely and stay away from the isolations. but i do know that's just me, and i am often wrong.

[d3v]

Nice boathead, what do you guys think of this routine. I've done each workout over the past week and it felt really good. I was establishing my 1RM's for most of the excersises as I havn't done many of them for ages. Any tohughts on this routine? Are the rep ranges ok for some of these lifts? I wonder if the iso's like lateral raises are ok at 5 reps?

[Skwidward]

Originally Posted by SquatTilYouDrop

Too many people get caught up in terminology. Compound this and isolation that. If people just viewed them as important bb exercises instead of categorizing/labeling them, there would be far less confusion.

Exactly, the dogma of

compound=big tough guy exercises like squat/dead etc.

Isolation=useless ego exercise like curling in the rack

Whereas the truth is this is a compound exercise http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Delt...DeltRaise.html

[jburd0003]

Originally Posted by d3v

Nice boathead, what do you guys think of this routine. I've done each workout over the past week and it felt really good. I was establishing my 1RM's for most of the excersises as I havn't done many of them for ages. Any tohughts on this routine? Are the rep ranges ok for some of these lifts? I wonder if the iso's like lateral raises are ok at 5 reps?

i would do a 3x8 on your lateral raises instead of the 5x5.

[Mike750]

Originally Posted by Skwidward

Whereas the truth is this is a compound exercise http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Delt...DeltRaise.html

Just curious as to how that is a compound exercise.

[msm172021121]

Originally Posted by Mike750

Just curious as to how that is a compound exercise.

there's really only movement at the shoulder joint so it isnt compound

[Mike750]

Originally Posted by msm172021121

there's really only movement at the shoulder joint so it isnt compound

That's why I questioned. I thought maybe they redefined compound exercises or something recently and I missed the memo.

[msm172021121]

Originally Posted by Mike750

That's why I questioned. I thought maybe they redefined compound exercises or something recently and I missed the memo.

lol. no, you didnt miss anything, maybe the elbow twitched a lil. play it back in slow motion. lol

[Mad_Dog_Divine]

Your workout is fine. A lot of people are chiming in with opinions but if it is working for you then keep at it. Try to make sure you increase the weight lifted every workout even by a small amount, i regularly aim for 2.5Kg on the big compounds.

As for other workouts, you might find that your triceps get a lot of work from benching and traps a lot from deadlifting but biceps are probably not being hit as hard as they could be. I sometimes have a day a week where I will work calves, abs and maybe biceps.

Another thing to think about is reducing volume on your compound days. Instead of 5x5 you could do 3x5 and then you should have energy for other exercises on those days. That way you could maybe do more overall work in the week without reaching your limit.

Nothing wrong with isolation exercises by the way, a good rule is to "earn" them by doing some hard work first.

[GuyJin]

OP,

I'm not dumping on you, but I looked at the revised workouts you posted and the squat/bench/deadlift numbers seem rather low. If you say that you've been training a few years, your numbers on the compounds should be higher than that. Not saying that you should be squatting and benching 300 pounds or more, but all the same, regardless of the routine and the minimalization of it, I think that you could be handling somewhat heavier weights. This leads me to believe that either you aren't pushing yourself to progress with the weights (although you say you are) or you aren't eating enough--or both. I don't know which. But, FWIW, I'd concentrate on eating a lot more than you say you do; many guys say they eat "X" number of calories a day, but they're deluding themselves, IMHO.

Pound the calories down, and pound the weight up. Then the pounds (or kilos, in your case) will take care of themselves.

My two yen...

[d3v]

Originally Posted by GuyJin

I'm not dumping on you, but I looked at the revised workouts you posted and the squat/bench/deadlift numbers seem rather low.

I have been lifting for 3 years but I've never stuck to a routine for any real length of time. The longest I've ever stuck to a lifting routine is about 3 months and my stats were 175lb at 15% and deadlift 115kg, squat 85kg and bench about 55kg I think. This time I will be sticking to lifting consistently no matter what. I finally realise and accept 100% now that real hard sweaty work is the only way to progress and get the body you desire. I am determined, and my squat went up 5kg yesterday!

Originally Posted by Mad_Dog_Divine

Try to make sure you increase the weight lifted every workout even by a small amount, i regularly aim for 2.5Kg on the big compounds.

Yup that's what I aim for and so far I am able to do so in all my compounds except for the bench. My chest is by far the hardest part of my body to grow, but I have included chest fly's and dumbell presses next time around.

Originally Posted by Mad_Dog_Divine

but biceps are probably not being hit as hard as they could be.

Yes I can see what you mean looking back on my revised workout and also I felt like they hadn't been worked enough last time I curled. I'll add in some dumbell curls next time.

Originally Posted by Mad_Dog_Divine

Another thing to think about is reducing volume on your compound days. Instead of 5x5 you could do 3x5 and then you should have energy for other exercises on those days. That way you could maybe do more overall work in the week without reaching your limit.

Yesterday (workout A) I found that I could handle the volume a lot better than I could the previous week. I found I wasn't nearly as out of breath while squatting. My cardio fitness and endurance is increasing as of this week!!

Originally Posted by Mad_Dog_Divine

Nothing wrong with isolation exercises by the way, a good rule is to "earn" them by doing some hard work first.

Yeah man I too feel ridiculous when performing an isolation exercise before any heavy hard work.

[Skwidward]

Originally Posted by msm172021121

there's really only movement at the shoulder joint so it isnt compound

It's an Auxiliary exercise (An optional exercise that may supplement a basic exercise. Auxiliary exercises may place greater relative intensity on a specific muscle or a head of a muscle. ), yet it is still a compound for it is "an exercise that involves two or more joint movements. "

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Glossary.html

How many joints in the shoulder? you ask.......... something you probably should have researched before making assertions such as the above.....