Christianity and Debt

[CEO Alex]

Due to my financial background, I have been invited to speak in front of several congregations regarding Debt. Therefore, I am putting together a speech teaching the groups that one should not owe anything to one another (Romans 13:8), those who are in debt are a slave to their lenders/masters (the Bible clearly states that one cannot have TWO masters) (Matthews 6:24), and those that borrow are wicked but the righteous are gracious and gives back (Psalms 37:21). Altogether, those who are in debt should pay off their debt to free themselves from their lenders/masters, so that they can have the opportunity to give back to their own community.

I would like to see your point of views on Debt and Biblical references supporting your views.

My goal here is to teach many different groups about their own faith and how it applies to debt. I would like to do what I can to assist the community in becoming debt free in this difficult economy, so that they can give back to one another.

Reps to those who find excellent references and provide definitions that would be applicable in my intended speeches.

[ghengisconor]

I think at the beginning of the year, Christians are automatically 10% of their net in debt to the church.

[HeatherAC]

Ha, lower individual debt means more money to put in the church coffers from parishoners.

Isn't greed supposed to be a sin? And are churches exempt from that somehow?

[buster_hymen]

Because of your financial background and wealth, would you give back to your community by sending me 24k so that I can have my teeth fixed so that I may not be in debt to the dentist?

In b4 no and prius and cigar closet

[MyLastSerenade]

Giving money to the Church is not Greed. God doesn't want your money, and laughs at our earthly currency and love and respect for it. Actually he is more than likely saddened by it.

Tithing is about love for God, taking something that belongs to you and giving it in the name of God, the same way God has blessed you. The Church is a community of believers. We want to help those in need, clothe then naked and feed the hungry. That is showing love. Now that is not to say man as ruined this in the name of God, but those are the exceptions.

Jesus said there will always be poor, but that doesn't always mean poor physically. And that also is what the church is for.


OP, simple verse I've always liked.

"Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

[ghengisconor]

Originally Posted by MyLastSerenade

Giving money to the Church is not Greed. God doesn't want your money, and laughs at our earthly currency and love and respect for it. Actually he is more than likely saddened by it.

Tithing is about love for God, taking something that belongs to you and giving it in the name of God, the same way God has blessed you. The Church is a community of believers. We want to help those in need, clothe then naked and feed the hungry. That is showing love. Now that is not to say man as ruined this in the name of God, but those are the exceptions.

Jesus said there will always be poor, but that doesn't always mean poor physically. And that also is what the church is for.


OP, simple verse I've always liked.

"Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

Then why use a middleman? why not give directly?

[HeatherAC]

Originally Posted by ghengisconor

Then why use a middleman? why not give directly?

Ever try giving money to an invisible man?

[ghengisconor]

Originally Posted by HeatherAC

Ever try giving money to an invisible man?

I agree with you, but that's sadly a straw-man argument here. I don't suggest giving to a supernatural space daddy, I mean give directly to those in need.

[MyLastSerenade]

Then why use a middleman? why not give directly?

You can! But not everyone is in the position to do so. It is not mandatory to give it to a church. Give to whomever it is, and you shall be blessed. Also, I love having a church, a building where other believers can gather, talk, support,cry,ect.


Remember churches started in small homes,caves,ect.

[HeatherAC]

Originally Posted by MyLastSerenade

You can! But not everyone is in the position to do so. It is not mandatory to give it to a church. Give to whomever it is, and you shall be blessed. Also, I love having a church, a building where other believers can gather, talk, support,cry,ect.

Remember churches started in small homes,caves,ect.

Do you feel the church should play a role in advising and assisting its parish regarding financial matters given the current economic situation? Or is that butting into people's lives a bit too much.

A loving God would want us to be happy, being debt free can ease a lot of strain and therefore possibly aid in our happiness, BUT, money shouldn't make a person happy soooooooo, yeah. One could go round and round and round on this.

[1stindoor]

My .02 cents on the issue.

I've been giving 10% for over 15 years now. Is it easy? Not at all. Do I always seem to have enough left over to pay my bills and have a good lifestyle? Every single month.

I don't always give a full 10% directly to my church. I give a lot through Goodwill and other charitable organizations. I always give through them as opposed to giving directly. I do this because it allows me to claim the donations on my taxes. If I have to render "unto Caeser that which is Caeser's," and I believe I should; then I will also use the rules and regulations of Caeser to ensure that my money goes to an organization I support and not misused.

I give 10% because I can. I made that commitment many years ago. Although the Bible talks of tithing, it also talks of the Widow's mite. I don't believe God wants us to be buried in debt and yet pay the church. That being said, I don't believe God wants us to confuse our needs with our wants either. This is the primary reason why debt gets so far out of our control.

By the way, I've been debt free (minus the house and vehicle payment) twice. Right now I'm up to my a$$ in debt...but it's manageable and I have taken steps to ensure I'm debt free within the next 8-10 years...no house payment, no vehicle payment, no boat payment, no credit cards. I also have no IRA, no stocks, no bonds, no mutual funds, etc. All of my assets are liquid.

[TE]

any church w/ a paid clergy sucks imo. I'm not paying anyone to pray for me. Kind of defeats the purpose, buying salvation.

[5x10]

alex, go to dave ramseys website
probably some references there

[Enso]

I think you are misusing the 'two masters' quote. It doesn't apply here in the sense you are getting at. Plus, you are making it out like if you have to take a loan out on a house or a car or furniture, and can't pay for it in full....you are somehow not being a model Christian.


The problem lies not with the debt itself, but those who collect the debt and how those in debt are potentially treated. I see what you are trying to get at, but I think you may need to look more deeply into the issue rather than just take a stance and try to argue for it. Debt itself is not un-Christian. It how those in debt are treated.

/Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the angle you are taking....

[HeatherAC]

Originally Posted by TE

any church w/ a paid clergy sucks imo. I'm not paying anyone to pray for me. Kind of defeats the purpose, buying salvation.

I agree. Do you think a church, as an organization meant to guide and assist its members should play a role in advising them on their finances? It is discussed in the bible, so therefore one could say that it's a natural subject topic, especially given current times.

I think there are some useful writings on the subject......but are they not just common sense?


Psalm 37:21
The wicked borrows and does not pay back, but the righteous is gracious and gives.


Proverbs 22:26-27
Do not be a man who strikes hands in pledge or puts up security for debts; if you lack the means to pay, your very bed will be snatched from under you.


Proverbs 22:7
The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower becomes the lender?s slave.



Ahem, OP, you may want to pay close attention to this one

1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

[1stindoor]

A few other thoughts

100 years ago we were more of an agrarian society. As such we usually had an extended family on which we could rely on and land that had been in the family in which we could farm and live on.

With the advance of the industrial age we moved out of the country and into the cities in order to work. Without having a support network close we had to go into debt in order to pay for things such as vehicles and houses. Everyone wanted a part of the "American Dream." Now it's virtually impossible to function in today's society (American) without a credit rating. At best a young kid could work local jobs in order to get enough money to buy an old used car. With said car he could now travel further from home to work a job that might pay more. But even saving every dime earned other than necessary expenses...it would be almost impossible for him (or her) to save enough money to make a down payment on a house without help. And there's still the monthly payments to consider.

Debt and financial management comes into play when discussing the Bible fairly regularly in my church and sunday school. I don't think we'll ever have a real "fix." Even the "church" (mine, yours, etc.) goes into debt sometimes to build or expand. I wish you well on the seminar. I truly don't know how I could attempt to tackle such an explosive subject. I would try to keep it simple. Needs versus wants. Income versus outgoing bills. I do a lot of counseling with younger Soldiers and I try to keep things really simple when dealing with their finances. I look at:
1. Rent/Mortgage (are they living within their means or are they living in a house/apartment that's more than they need?).
2. Utilities. A necessary evil and yet one that can be cut back on if done properly.
3. Phones. Do they have a landline and a cell phone? Are they paying an astronomical cell phone bill? Usually they're paying for a cell phone plan they don't need.
4. Food. Are they cutting coupons? Comparison shopping? Brand loyal? etc.
5. Misc. This is usually the killer...things like internet, cable, satellite, gas, entertainment, etc.

[Enso]

Originally Posted by HeatherAC

Proverbs 22:7
The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower becomes the lender's slave.

Ahem, OP, you may want to pay close attention to this one

1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Those two are very true as reality has shown. Actually, they all are...but the last two are what make the first two true.

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by TE

any church w/ a paid clergy sucks imo. I'm not paying anyone to pray for me. Kind of defeats the purpose, buying salvation.

ahhh jeez...come on now. You are not paying a member of the cloth to pray for you. You are paying a professional to do his/her job. It's not just praying, it's spiritual guidance, it's counseling, it's conducting marriage ceremonies, funerals, and I could go on. If you're not actively going to church then you can't make those kind of statements. If you are, then you need to seriously look at your church and it's foundation.

You can't buy salvation. It's been paid for and yours totally free for the taking. If you disagree with that, then that's an entirely different discussion.

[IzRiot]

Debt is like mud butt, everyone has had some, and its best to clean it up asap.

[TE]

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

ahhh jeez...come on now. You are not paying a member of the cloth to pray for you. You are paying a professional to do his/her job. It's not just praying, it's spiritual guidance, it's counseling, it's conducting marriage ceremonies, funerals, and I could go on. If you're not actively going to church then you can't make those kind of statements. If you are, then you need to seriously look at your church and it's foundation.

You can't buy salvation. It's been paid for and yours totally free for the taking. If you disagree with that, then that's an entirely different discussion.

yes I attend regularly & no clergy is paid. All "praying, it's spiritual guidance, it's counseling, it's conducting marriage ceremonies, funerals, and I could go on" is volunteered & from the heart, not for money. I think "you need to seriously look at your church and it's foundation."

And if you find something is wrong with your church, you can always start your own, I hear the money is good.

[Enso]

Perhaps the focus should be on the use/overuse of credit cards? That way you can use the angle of being materialistic to the point of buying things you don't need and as a result the potential mass accumulation of worthless debt...debt you have nothing to show for.

I don't have the time to find passages and go further in detail atm, but if you like....I'd be happy to clarify more later.

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by TE

yes I attend regularly & no clergy is paid... I think "you need to seriously look at your church and it's foundation."

And if you find something is wrong with your church, you can always start your own, I hear the money is good.

Well put. I wish I had said something like that. lol. I had to laugh at the final comment though as I have been approached after a service I've given as a "lay leader." It's definitely not my calling.

One of the best things I've ever heard was from an old Baptist minister who said he was told by someone that they wouldn't go to church because there were too many hyprocrites. The minister said, "Come to mine, this way there'll be one more."

[TE]

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

Well put. I wish I had said something like that. lol. I had to laugh at the final comment though as I have been approached after a service I've given as a "lay leader." It's definitely not my calling.

One of the best things I've ever heard was from an old Baptist minister who said he was told by someone that they wouldn't go to church because there were too many hyprocrites. The minister said, "Come to mine, this way there'll be one more."

lol. realists deserve repsect.

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by Enso

Perhaps the focus should be on the use/overuse of credit cards? That way you can use the angle of being materialistic to the point of buying things you don't need and as a result the potential mass accumulation of worthless debt...debt you have nothing to show for.

I don't have the time to find passages and go further in detail atm, but if you like....I'd be happy to clarify more later.

This is a good idea. You can use the angle of how to define yourself and your success by the Bible as opposed to how popular culture defines success.

Think of it this way, we materialistic side talks of getting into debt and buying everything you could want as a measure of your success. Yet the Bible talks of laying treasure in heaven. Money saved for your future, is doing just that in a way. It's providing you with a cushion.

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by TE

lol. realists deserve repsect.

yep...he was a good man and very positive role model for me. In his later years his sermons tended to drift a little off subject but he always had a little pearl hidden away if you paid attention.

[TE]

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

This is a good idea. You can use the angle of how to define yourself and your success by the Bible as opposed to how popular culture defines success.

Think of it this way, we materialistic side talks of getting into debt and buying everything you could want as a measure of your success. Yet the Bible talks of laying treasure in heaven. Money saved for your future, is doing just that in a way. It's providing you with a cushion.

debt = stress = unhappiness & compromising your morals.

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by TE

debt = stress = unhappiness & compromising your morals.

One last gasp before I head home after a long day at work on this computer. lol

I think "unmanageable" debt=stress=unhappiness & compromising your morals.

Afterall if you have debt, whether it's a house payment, vehicle, college loan, etc. and your job allows you to pay on your debt while still taking care of your other financial responsibilities then you're probably not suffering too much stress.

[TE]

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

One last gasp before I head home after a long day at work on this computer. lol

I think "unmanageable" debt=stress=unhappiness & compromising your morals.

Afterall if you have debt, whether it's a house payment, vehicle, college loan, etc. and your job allows you to pay on your debt while still taking care of your other financial responsibilities then you're probably not suffering too much stress.

you're right. live within your means. plain & simple.

[HeatherAC]

Originally Posted by TE

you're right. live within your means. plain & simple.

I think most of us are guilty of living outside our means from time to time, sadly.

How should one's clergy go about in advising and assisting its flock in living within their means? In what fashion does your church address it? Do you think that is the best means? And if not, what would you do differently?

What example should the clergy be setting for its congregation? I must say, if my pastor was driving around in a brand new Cadillac I'd be more than a little miffed. Thankfully, she doesn't.

[caj]

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

My .02 cents on the issue.

I've been giving 10% for over 15 years now. Is it easy? Not at all. Do I always seem to have enough left over to pay my bills and have a good lifestyle? Every single month.

I don't always give a full 10% directly to my church. I give a lot through Goodwill and other charitable organizations. I always give through them as opposed to giving directly. I do this because it allows me to claim the donations on my taxes. If I have to render "unto Caeser that which is Caeser's," and I believe I should; then I will also use the rules and regulations of Caeser to ensure that my money goes to an organization I support and not misused.

I give 10% because I can. I made that commitment many years ago. Although the Bible talks of tithing, it also talks of the Widow's mite. I don't believe God wants us to be buried in debt and yet pay the church. That being said, I don't believe God wants us to confuse our needs with our wants either. This is the primary reason why debt gets so far out of our control.

By the way, I've been debt free (minus the house and vehicle payment) twice. Right now I'm up to my a$$ in debt...but it's manageable and I have taken steps to ensure I'm debt free within the next 8-10 years...no house payment, no vehicle payment, no boat payment, no credit cards. I also have no IRA, no stocks, no bonds, no mutual funds, etc. All of my assets are liquid.

Hey, thanks for this. Great post. Tithing, whether it's to your church or to someone in need, is a genuine blessing.