How I failed keto and what YOU can do to succeed at it!

[Jay Rawd]

I am known as the anti-keto guy around these parts. For the record, I see nothing wrong with the diet itself, just that it might not be the optimal choice for bodybuilders who lift weights (weight lifting runs on carbs only never on fat).

However, some bodybuilders have found huge success with these diets. Maybe it's a genetic thing. Some people's body chemistry is made for low carbs while other's isn't. Even some pros have used keto effectively. Dave Palumbo is one of them and he also uses it to get his clients ripped to shreds. Keto can work but you have to do it right.

While I did keto, I lost a ton of muscle mass. I look back and I realize that maybe I could have lost less (or none) had I stuck to some principles. Then again I'm a person who functions optimally on carbs. For those of you that love keto and want to succeed in it, however, here are some tips:

• Carb-up: You're damn right I said carb-up. Weight lifting doesn't run on ketones and you need the carbs in your system to fuel your workouts. Don't eat donuts and pizza to justify this, however. Keep fat intake low (15% of your total calories) but not too low (less than 10%). As far as calories go, around 16x your lean bodyweight would do. If you lift very hard, you can go up to 26x bodyweight. Get a gram of protein per lb. of lean mass as well. You can also split it up into two mini carb-ups on 2 days spaced 3-4 days apart where you train lagging bodyparts. The 26x lean bodyweight is done on the first day and 16x lean bodyweight is done on the second day if consecutive. Others find good results with the two mini carb-ups at 16x lean bodyweight (around maintenance).
• Eat your veggies!: Since you cut carbs out, you take away some nutrients that carby foods can have. Make up for this by eating many green veggies like Spinach, broccoli, etc. Starchy vegetables like potatoes aren't really allowed since they have too many carbs.
• Forget about intense cardio: Intense cardio uses carbs for energy. Guess what? you don't have any and your body doesn't care that ketones are present. it WILL use dietary protein for energy and maybe muscle mass since those can be converted to carbs and fat can't. Instead, do Low Intensity Steady State cardio at your target heart rate or even lower. Walk, do the elliptical for 45 minutes, etc. However, keto can rip you up by itself without cardio. You can NOT do cardio and still get good results.
• Split it up!: Do bodypart splits and none of that full-body training. You want to slowly deplete glycogen from each muscle group little by little, not in one session.
• Keep it heavy and short: Do about half the sets you were doing while not cutting but do the same weight. So if you bench 315 for 8 reps and 5 sets, do 315 for 8 reps and 1-2 sets. Keto is also not the time to start up a new routine and build up from there. Focus on just maintaining lifts, not trying to get strong in new ones.
• Cycle your fluid intake: During keto days, drink plenty of water since you're taking water out of your body while depleting glucose/glycogen. However, once carb-up comes around make sure to cut your water intake since carbs alone will rehydrate your muscles. If you drink alot of fluid during carb-up, be prepared to feel sluggish, bloated, and like you're about to have a baby.
• Relax: Forget about ketostix. They aren't accurate. Just make sure to keep carb intake minimal and you'll be fine. Also, don't worry about any insulin spike that might happen when eating sweet foods like splenda or diet soda (or even gum). It's minimal and insulin is anti-catabolic anyway so even though you might not be burning fat you're also not burning muscle. This is another reason not to fear the carb-up. Insulin isn't bad and it's not the fat storage hormone, either.
• Drop calories as progress stalls: Drop them from carbs until you get to 0, then from fat, and protein only as a last resort. The worst thing you want is to be is protein deficient when trying to maintain muscle mass.

Hope this helps some people because I knew it would have helped me!

[Paintball26]

Very good post

Pretty much sums up the most commonly asked questions and provides answers to the common mistakes on this diet.

[RubberGuard]

If my progress stalls the last thing i'd do is cut calories. Yes I adjust intake according to weight loss but there are other ways and means to kick start stagnant progress.

Some good points made but shouldn't be taken as gospel.

Whether bulking or cutting it's all learning process, so trial and error and find what works for you.

[poetical_ninja]

This was a v helpful post for me.

I'm in my 3rd week. Had fantastic results at the end of the induction, then did the first carb up. Since then, I don't really know whats happening with my body. The water that returned from the carb up is still here, so I don't know what my progress has been over the last 4 days. I'm inclined not to carb up until maybe a week from now, since this Sunday would appear too soon.

Anyway, the part about not relying on ketostix, I liked. I show up as negative everytime on them this week, whereas on my induction I was constantly positive. It's got me down a bit, because I'm wondering if I'm even burning fat etc.

Anyway, I know my diet is right, my training is fine and strength has increased slightly in some areas. My only confusion is with carb ups and their effects, and what I should be expecting long term.

But thanks, this was an awesome post.

[oedipus99]

I never quite understood the unquestioned dogma that is low fat (15%) during carb ups is optimal. I always had better success when I ignored the "switch the carb/fat macro" and ate plenty of carbs during the carb up with a moderate amount of fat.

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by oedipus99

I never quite understood the unquestioned dogma that is low fat (15%) during carb ups is optimal. I always had better success when I ignored the "switch the carb/fat macro" and ate plenty of carbs during the carb up with a moderate amount of fat.

I didn't say switch the macros. 70% Carbs, 15% protein and 15% Fat is better. Switching the macros is near impossible.

Low fat is because you don't want spillover. Too little fat and too much fat are both bad.

15% Fat is actually not as little as you think.

[Distram]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

I am known as the anti-keto guy around these parts. For the record, I see nothing wrong with the diet itself, just that it might not be the optimal choice for bodybuilders who lift weights (weight lifting runs on carbs only never on fat).

However, some bodybuilders have found huge success with these diets. Maybe it's a genetic thing. Some people's body chemistry is made for low carbs while other's isn't. Even some pros have used keto effectively. Dave Palumbo is one of them and he also uses it to get his clients ripped to shreds. Keto can work but you have to do it right.

While I did keto, I lost a ton of muscle mass. I look back and I realize that maybe I could have lost less (or none) had I stuck to some principles. Then again I'm a person who functions optimally on carbs. For those of you that love keto and want to succeed in it, however, here are some tips:

• Carb-up: You're damn right I said carb-up. Weight lifting doesn't run on ketones and you need the carbs in your system to fuel your workouts. Don't eat donuts and pizza to justify this, however. Keep fat intake low (15% of your total calories) but not too low (less than 10%). As far as calories go, around 16x your lean bodyweight would do. If you lift very hard, you can go up to 26x bodyweight. Get a gram of protein per lb. of lean mass as well. You can also split it up into two mini carb-ups on 2 days spaced 3-4 days apart where you train lagging bodyparts.
• Eat your veggies!: Since you cut carbs out, you take away some nutrients that carby foods can have. Make up for this by eating many green veggies like Spinach, broccoli, etc. Starchy vegetables like potatoes aren't really allowed since they have too many carbs.
• Forget about intense cardio: Intense cardio uses carbs for energy. Guess what? you don't have any and your body doesn't care that ketones are present. it WILL use dietary protein for energy and maybe muscle mass since those can be converted to carbs and fat can't. Instead, do Low Intensity Steady State cardio at your target heart rate or even lower. Walk, do the elliptical for 45 minutes, etc. However, keto can rip you up by itself without cardio. You can NOT do cardio and still get good results.
• Split it up!: Do bodypart splits and none of that full-body training. You want to slowly deplete glycogen from each muscle group little by little, not in one session.
• Keep it heavy and short: Do about half the sets you were doing while not cutting but do the same weight. So if you bench 315 for 8 reps and 5 sets, do 315 for 8 reps and 1-2 sets. Keto is also not the time to start up a new routine and build up from there. Focus on just maintaining lifts, not trying to get strong in new ones.
• Cycle your fluid intake: During keto days, drink plenty of water since you're taking water out of your body while depleting glucose/glycogen. However, once carb-up comes around make sure to cut your water intake since carbs alone will rehydrate your muscles. If you drink alot of fluid during carb-up, be prepared to feel sluggish, bloated, and like you're about to have a baby.
• Relax: Forget about ketostix. They aren't accurate. Just make sure to keep carb intake minimal and you'll be fine. Also, don't worry about any insulin spike that might happen when eating sweet foods like splenda or diet soda (or even gum). It's minimal and insulin is anti-catabolic anyway so even though you might not be burning fat you're also not burning muscle. This is another reason not to fear the carb-up. Insulin isn't bad and it's not the fat storage hormone, either.
• Drop calories as progress stalls: Drop them from fat and carbs, and protein only as a last resort. The worst thing you want is to be protein deficient when trying to maintain muscle mass.

Hope this helps some people because I knew it would have helped me!

Dude, you're my hero. I was just wondering about a bunch of this stuff.

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by RubberGuard

If my progress stalls the last thing i'd do is cut calories. Yes I adjust intake according to weight loss but there are other ways and means to kick start stagnant progress.

Why? And list the ways.

You could do more cardio rather than cut carbs but LISS takes very long and adding it just makes it more of a hassle since you have to perform a few extra hours of LISS every week. No thanks.

Some good points made but shouldn't be taken as gospel.

Whether bulking or cutting it's all learning process, so trial and error and find what works for you.

No, trial and error is crap if you are given info that already cuts the guesswork out. For example, you can trial and error out of your ass all you want and perform HIIT and full-body depletion workouts every day during ketosis and you won't see it work for you because the human body is governed by certain laws that we can't ignore.

Some things work for everyone. The advice I posted is an example. Unless you're not human.

[Distram]

A couple questions:

1. What do you define as high intensity cardio? 130-150BPM?

2. Would it be beneficial to lift five days in a row? Like (A)Push, (B)Pull, (C)Legs - xABCABx?

3. Is it ok to push the carb-up to every two weeks?

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by Distram

A couple questions:

1. What do you define as high intensity cardio? 130-150BPM?

2. Would it be beneficial to lift five days in a row? Like (A)Push, (B)Pull, (C)Legs - xABCABx?

3. Is it ok to push the carb-up to every two weeks?

Dude, 130-150 BPM can be low intensity or high intensity depending on what your resting heart rate is and what your maximal heart rate is. There are no absolutes. When I do HIIT the highest I hit is 130 BPM and a guy I know hits 190.

High intensity is anything where you can't talk to someone while you're doing it.

It's better to train bodyparts once a week. That way you deplete glycogen from one, then move to the next. You can do twice a week with much, much lower volume, though. Just make sure that as frequency goes up, volume goes down. Do whatever is possible where you can lift the same weight for the same reps. If you can do this with 2 times a week or 3 times a week, go ahead.

You can push the carb-up to every 2 weeks if your strength remains the same.

[Distram]

[B]High intensity is anything where you can't talk to someone while you're doing it.

That's the answer I was looking for. Thanks, man.

Just make sure that as frequency goes up, volume goes down.

I do heavy weight and low volume on as many lifts as I can. Not very much a high volume lifter.

You can push the carb-up to every 2 weeks if your strength remains the same.

So, if I notice my strength dipping then I know it's time to carb-up. Sometimes I'm just not sure if my strength dips because I need to carb-up or because my cals are too low.

It's hard to tell where my cals should be - I never know which calcs to trust. (185 ~29% BF)

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by Distram

That's the answer I was looking for. Thanks, man.



I do heavy weight and low volume on as many lifts as I can. Not very much a high volume lifter.



So, if I notice my strength dipping then I know it's time to carb-up. Sometimes I'm just not sure if my strength dips because I need to carb-up or because my cals are too low.

It's hard to tell where my cals should be - I never know which calcs to trust. (185 ~29% BF)

Eat enough where you lose weight but not too little where you're lifting less reps on the same weight. It really varies per individual, but that is the sweet spot for cutting.

[Distram]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Eat enough where you lose weight but not too little where you're lifting less reps on the same weight. It really varies per individual, but that is the sweet spot for cutting.

That's pretty much what I do. Sometimes I just feel like **** but I can always do the same lifts.

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by Distram

That's pretty much what I do. Sometimes I just feel like **** but I can always do the same lifts.

Yeah that's cool.

[CanuckTank]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

I am known as the anti-keto guy around these parts. For the record, I see nothing wrong with the diet itself, just that it might not be the optimal choice for bodybuilders who lift weights (weight lifting runs on carbs only never on fat).

Weight training only runs on carbs? COMON! jesus.... Where did you get that idea from?

And this is where you fail. I weight train and bodybuild and yes, I am low carb and yes, my body uses fat for energy.

The body can turn fat into energy so i have no idea where you got this wrong assumption from.

[Jesterclause]

Why not the anabolic diet?

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by CanuckTank

Weight training only runs on carbs? COMON! jesus.... Where did you get that idea from?

And this is where you fail. I weight train and bodybuild and yes, I am low carb and yes, my body uses fat for energy.

The body can turn fat into energy so i have no idea where you got this wrong assumption from.

Basic physiology contradicts you. The ATP-PCr system runs on glycogen only. If it can't get glycogen from carbs, it gets them from protein. You can't turn fat into carbs.

Of course the body can turn fat for energy. Energy which can be used in oxidative states only. You just can't change it. End of story.

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by Jesterclause

Why not the anabolic diet?

Because most people use the unstructured carb-up to binge, which leads to spillover undoing what they did the week leading up to it.

[CanuckTank]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Basic physiology contradicts you. The ATP-PCr system runs on glycogen only. If it can't get glycogen from carbs, it gets them from protein. You can't turn fat into carbs.

Of course the body can turn fat for energy. Energy which can be used in oxidative states only. You just can't change it. End of story.

You can use fat for energy and the protein for regeneration and repair.

AKA weight traingin with gains.

Don't know where you think if there isn't any carbs, you can't gain muscle.

[Jay Rawd]

Originally Posted by CanuckTank

You can use fat for energy and the protein for regeneration and repair.

Um, duh? Guess what, though? We weren't talking about that.

AKA weight traingin with gains.

Don't know of many cases where one gained muscle on a caloric deficit unless they were n00bs. Very rare to gain muscle on a caloric deficit.

Don't know where you think if there isn't any carbs, you can't gain muscle.

Ketosis in and of itself is a catabolic state. Not really the best place to try and gain muscle. Of course, you can just overeat the hell out of protein but then it would be just converted to glucose which would be kind of pointless since you could have just eaten carbs and gotten the same effect. Beyond a certain point excess protein just gets turned into carbs so you're better off eating carbs anyway.

However, we weren't even talking about that. We were talking about how weightlifting runs solely on carbs and if carbs are low, it turns dietary protein to glucose. It doesn't run on fat, sorry. Never has and never will unless you can magically reset the energy systems of your body (nobody has ever done this). The Phosphocreatine system always has and always will run on glucose. You can't get glucose from fat, so protein is the victim. Not good.

[RubberGuard]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Why? And list the ways.

You could do more cardio rather than cut carbs but LISS takes very long and adding it just makes it more of a hassle since you have to perform a few extra hours of LISS every week. No thanks.

Extra cardio is one way. How do you know for definite that cutting calories is going to resume stalled progress in every individual?

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

No, trial and error is crap if you are given info that already cuts the guesswork out. For example, you can trial and error out of your ass all you want and perform HIIT and full-body depletion workouts every day during ketosis and you won't see it work for you because the human body is governed by certain laws that we can't ignore.

Some things work for everyone. The advice I posted is an example. Unless you're not human.

You've given information that i've taken in but will not necessarily follow because your findings might not be applicable to me. The only thing that is crap is a small authoritarian mindset.

[Goldmuscle]

jay i have a cuestion x you

If iam in ketosis 1 week,can i do the carb load ( eat more carbs,but protein high too) the next week,i dont whant lost muscle during this process, or durning the pre-workout process eat more carbs than protein

[gekkoboy14]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Basic physiology contradicts you. The ATP-PCr system runs on glycogen only. If it can't get glycogen from carbs, it gets them from protein. You can't turn fat into carbs.

Of course the body can turn fat for energy. Energy which can be used in oxidative states only. You just can't change it. End of story.

unless u lift weight at a very low intensity

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

• Eat your veggies!: Since you cut carbs out, you take away some nutrients that carby foods can have. Make up for this by eating many green veggies like Spinach, broccoli, etc. Starchy vegetables like potatoes aren't really allowed since they have too many carbs.

I made a thread about my new favorite green vegs... bok choy; Swiss chard; spinach; broccoli rabe; escarole. I am going to try mustard greens, beet greens and kale @ Eileen's behest (OK, behest is too strong... she didn't order me ). Collards are good too, but they have to be boiled first (they are strong), then simmered with a fatty or smoked meat.

• Forget about intense cardio: Intense cardio uses carbs for energy. Guess what? you don't have any and your body doesn't care that ketones are present. it WILL use dietary protein for energy and maybe muscle mass since those can be converted to carbs and fat can't. Instead, do Low Intensity Steady State cardio at your target heart rate or even lower. Walk, do the elliptical for 45 minutes, etc. However, keto can rip you up by itself without cardio. You can NOT do cardio and still get good results.

No argument from me. My only vice here is during the warm weather... 1-2 hour mountain bike trail rides once ort twice a week. They can be intense, having me suck wind. Other than that... I walk or a 35-45 min. road ride.

• Split it up!: Do bodypart splits and none of that full-body training. You want to slowly deplete glycogen from each muscle group little by little, not in one session.
  
• Keep it heavy and short: Do about half the sets you were doing while not cutting but do the same weight. So if you bench 315 for 8 reps and 5 sets, do 315 for 8 reps and 1-2 sets. Keto is also not the time to start up a new routine and build up from there. Focus on just maintaining lifts, not trying to get strong in new ones.

I was doing a 5x5 before I came back on keto; I am glad I read this to support my going back to my 3-4 day split. It's semi Max-OT in that I pyramid up some warm up sets to the work sets, which are short and heavy.

Hope this helps some people because I knew it would have helped me!

This is good. Sticky material.

[thekurgan]

Jay hit it on the head when he mentioned "genetics". Nothing that works for one, will more than likely work for many. You've got to know your body. Thanks for the post.

[Douglas_Quaid]

I figured I'll ask this in here since it's been mentioned.
I was originally planning on jogging/bicycling for cardio but then I thoughtI probably shouldn't be doing something that gets me huffing and puffing even it it is "low intensity". (amirite?)
How long of a walk would count as acceptable cardio, and should that be a slow walk or brisk walk (normal for me) or a powerwalk? I walk to classes M,W,F so that is a 20 minute walk in the morning and 20 minute in the afternoon. I walk pretty fast but I don't powerwalk and I'm not going to, I don't want to get to class drenched.
Is this enough? Should I do another walk when I get home?

[jked4life]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Of course, you can just overeat the hell out of protein but then it would be just converted to glucose which would be kind of pointless since you could have just eaten carbs and gotten the same effect. Beyond a certain point excess protein just gets turned into carbs so you're better off eating carbs anyway.

This is true about gluconeogenesis.

Saying that you are "better off eating carbs" isn't necessarily true though. Protein has a higher thrermic effect, which can be an advantage if you tend towards holding more fat.

I was listening to an inteview with Dr. Scott Connelly(creator of Met-RX and Progenex) and he was discussing a recent study that found 80% of the glycogen burned during weight training originated via gluconeogenisis.

I bring this up because I think the jury is still out on this. I don't believe discussion is over or will be in the near future. I also don't think one can simplify a mass gain diet and cram everyone into one way of doing things. While I'm not a fan of Keto for mass gain, I also think the carb/fat/protein level that is optimal is different for each individual based on a number of factors, most important being insulin sensitivity.

[MarkVI]

Originally Posted by DDJ

I figured I'll ask this in here since it's been mentioned.
I was originally planning on jogging/bicycling for cardio but then I thoughtI probably shouldn't be doing something that gets me huffing and puffing even it it is "low intensity". (amirite?)
How long of a walk would count as acceptable cardio, and should that be a slow walk or brisk walk (normal for me) or a powerwalk? I walk to classes M,W,F so that is a 20 minute walk in the morning and 20 minute in the afternoon. I walk pretty fast but I don't powerwalk and I'm not going to, I don't want to get to class drenched.
Is this enough? Should I do another walk when I get home?

By the looks of your avatar you should do the cardio that burns the most calories, you have a surplus of stored energy on your body and that will be used before LBM.

[TaoistWarrior]

Originally Posted by Jay Rawd

Why? And list the ways.

You could do more cardio rather than cut carbs but LISS takes very long and adding it just makes it more of a hassle since you have to perform a few extra hours of LISS every week. No thanks.



No, trial and error is crap if you are given info that already cuts the guesswork out. For example, you can trial and error out of your ass all you want and perform HIIT and full-body depletion workouts every day during ketosis and you won't see it work for you because the human body is governed by certain laws that we can't ignore.

Some things work for everyone. The advice I posted is an example. Unless you're not human.

You make some good points in your post Jay but advice on this diet is not something that will work for everyone. To your original point, everyone has a different metabolism and will react to this diet differently.

I've been on the Anabolic Diet for about a year and I've never felt, or looked better. But it did take considerable trial and error to determine how to do it right. Everyone should have to go through that process of learning how their body responds, and if they don't, results will suffer.

[carbotoo]

Originally Posted by DDJ

How long of a walk would count as acceptable cardio, and should that be a slow walk or brisk walk (normal for me) or a powerwalk? I walk to classes M,W,F so that is a 20 minute walk in the morning and 20 minute in the afternoon.

IMO one long walk - 60 mins minimum (every day), is better than 2 or 3 short walks - ur body starts going into fat burning mode right around the 20 min point on LISS. but SOMETHING is better than nothing, and, just regular walking is fine.