Overtraining

[BABYBULL92003]

I keep hearing about this all over the Keto section. Im curious as to who has actually been or felt over trained and what were/are you doing?

I have been on low carbs for very extended periods of time...10months to be exact......I train 5 days a week with weights and anywhere from 4-7 days of fasted cardio (after a cup of Jo). Ive never felt extremely tired, nor had insomnia or any other signs of overtraining. My strength has stayed the same or went up.

Its obvious that Pro bodybuilders take alot of "supplements", and that their life revolves around training but the do up to 2-3 hrs of cardio per day, do 2 weight workouts per day, etc., and get to low body fat levels and dont seem to get over trained?

Every time I see someone that to me looks good...they train their butt of all the time. Ive yet to meet someone who has said...."WOW, I STARTED WORKING OUT LESS....AND FINALLY GOT RIPPED!"

HAVE YOU GUYS?

[Fombi]

I've always thought the same as you, how is it possible that you could work out less and get more result? Seems to be backwards.

Until recently I never looked into this whole over training idea, but when the symptoms were pointed out to me I realized I may be suffering from it.

Muscle aches, insomnia, really bad bags under my eyes etc etc. For me, I'm going to drop my cardio and move my weight days apart more.

I think everyone is different and maybe ones ability to recover is a genetic variable that needs to be adressed the same way metobolic rate can be different??

I'm in my first week of "Less Training". I'll keep you posted on results.

[BABYBULL92003]

Originally Posted by Fombi

I've always thought the same as you, how is it possible that you could work out less and get more result? Seems to be backwards.

Until recently I never looked into this whole over training idea, but when the symptoms were pointed out to me I realized I may be suffering from it.

Muscle aches, insomnia, really bad bags under my eyes etc etc. For me, I'm going to drop my cardio and move my weight days apart more.

I think everyone is different and maybe ones ability to recover is a genetic variable that needs to be adressed the same way metobolic rate can be different??

I'm in my first week of "Less Training". I'll keep you posted on results.

My thoughts exactly...like the rest of this iron journey...its highly individualistic!

[Ekke]

been thinking about the same..

personally i do fullbody mon, wed, fri... I never get DOMS though, so it's tempting to work out every day... I keep reading this will hurt hypertrophy etc. but seriously, it's tempting to just hit that iron relentlessly.

[RubberGuard]

First time I did Keto I over trained at one point. Attempting an AM fasted sub 40 min 10k run wasn't the best idea and needless to say I felt like **** for a good while afterwards.

Irritable and pissed off, not the feeling of endorphin release that usually follows a good cardio workout (for me anyway). Lesson learned.

[srish]

Theres no such thing as overtraining. Only under recuperation. The old school guys like arnold and surge nubret etc... Trained every body part up to three times a week with 30-35 sets per body part. They grew muscle like crazy with not near as many of the fancy supplements and protein powders we have nowadays.

[Fombi]

Originally Posted by srish

Theres no such thing as overtraining. Only under recuperation. The old school guys like arnold and surge nubret etc... Trained every body part up to three times a week with 30-35 sets per body part. They grew muscle like crazy with not near as many of the fancy supplements and protein powders we have nowadays.

But wouldn't they have been doing this during times that they were trying to gain mass?? I would think that if/when they dropped cals below maintenance work out intensity would also decrease.

And again, genetics would play a role here. I"m sorry, but I don't think if I did 30-35 sets per body part it would be beneficial. Is it your belief that over training is just a myth and there is no science to it??

[BABYBULL92003]

Originally Posted by Fombi

But wouldn't they have been doing this during times that they were trying to gain mass?? I would think that if/when they dropped cals below maintenance work out intensity would also decrease.

And again, genetics would play a role here. I"m sorry, but I don't think if I did 30-35 sets per body part it would be beneficial. Is it your belief that over training is just a myth and there is no science to it??

I think genetics and the individual play a big role. Im not sure....this whole bodybuilding thing you ahve to go by trial and error.

Cutler eats high carbs

Freeman eats palumbo style low carb

cutler trains volume

Dexter does low volume

David henry does DC

And they all look good by most of our standards. Different things work for different people. General guidelines help...but you need to try them out and tweak it for yourself.

[MarkVI]

Originally Posted by BABYBULL92003

I think genetics and the individual play a big role. Im not sure....this whole bodybuilding thing you ahve to go by trial and error.

Cutler eats high carbs

Freeman eats palumbo style low carb

cutler trains volume

Dexter does low volume

David henry does DC

And they all look good by most of our standards. Different things work for different people. General guidelines help...but you need to try them out and tweak it for yourself.

exactly! I think that a general rule of thumb is you can't overtrain, just undereat....but for serious, intense lifters (meaning NOT 99% of the nutrition section ) overtraining is a reality you need to watch out for. I think that it is load dependent too.

[AWD_TURBO]

Originally Posted by MarkVI

(meaning NOT 99% of the nutrition section )

I lol'd

[CanuckTank]

Originally Posted by srish

Theres no such thing as overtraining. Only under recuperation. The old school guys like arnold and surge nubret etc... Trained every body part up to three times a week with 30-35 sets per body part. They grew muscle like crazy with not near as many of the fancy supplements and protein powders we have nowadays.

Good point. Recuperation is the key point.

As for Arnold and "the boys", don't forget they were on some serious roids back then too, but it was legal.

Riods help with recuperation bigtime, sometimes cutting 2/3 off the repair time so they didn't need as much rest.

[BABYBULL92003]

Originally Posted by CanuckTank

Good point. Recuperation is the key point.

As for Arnold and "the boys", don't forget they were on some serious roids back then too, but it was legal.

Riods help with recuperation bigtime, sometimes cutting 2/3 off the repair time so they didn't need as much rest.

Agreed

[srish]

My point was if some bone head does chest and bis seven days a week then symptons of overtraining will occur. But if your eating right and you go lift and destroy your chest and then let that muscle recover then your fine.

Its easier to break down more fibers when you lift heavy. If someones 1 rep max on bench is 225 and there doin 3 sets of 10 with 145 i think its worthless.
But if they do 3 sets of close to failure with say 200 much more growth will occur while in recovery.

and agreed that alot of the old school guys had roids on there side.

[BABYBULL92003]

One last thought on this that hit me before bed last night. Your daily job and activities are a HUGE part of overtraining. I think this is why I can get by with so much LISS and heavy weight training and still feel fine.

I wake up....do 45min cardio.....than go to work. Work for me is sitting at a desk most of the day and not doing anything PHYSICAL. I eat on time everyday due to having that freedom...and a fridge, microwave, etc. I get off work and go home to drink my pre workout supps....then I lift for 1-1.5hrs...then I go home and cook my dinner and meals for the next day. Than I sit on my ass and do nothing for 2 hrs....go to bed and get 8-9hrs of sleep.

Obviously everyone cant/wont do that. I will rarely go bowling or do something like that. Hunting season is over....but fishing is the only other thing I would consider sort of physical I do...and that ISNT MUCH! lol

Just thought Id add that.

[gekkoboy14]

Originally Posted by srish

Theres no such thing as overtraining. Only under recuperation. The old school guys like arnold and surge nubret etc... Trained every body part up to three times a week with 30-35 sets per body part. They grew muscle like crazy with not near as many of the fancy supplements and protein powders we have nowadays.

they are synonymous terms

[gekkoboy14]

Originally Posted by MarkVI

exactly! I think that a general rule of thumb is you can't overtrain, just undereat....but for serious, intense lifters (meaning NOT 99% of the nutrition section ) overtraining is a reality you need to watch out for. I think that it is load dependent too.

i would not agree. you can still be over trained, and have fulfilled and or exceeded your dietary needs.

[MarkVI]

Originally Posted by gekkoboy14

i would not agree. you can still be over trained, and have fulfilled and or exceeded your dietary needs.

that's nice and you're right, for serious lifters that happens. But for the vast majority of guys who go to the gym (and most of bb.com) it's lack of food.

[MrLovrLovr]

My 101% overtraining experience that I KNEW was it - I actually had flu like symptoms for almost a full 2 days .

except worse in a few ways

I was not in a caloric deficit for 30 days prior or anytime another 30+ days thereafter and eating REALLY clean good whole foods cooked at home daily

I believe it was the super duper heavy squats in sets of 2x - rest 30 seconds that did it ...
and the negs on the bench with 35% more weight that I can press on the bench 2 days later

thoguh that wasn't the first time I did either if i remeber right it was um ... " different somehow "

[Rachelizabethm]

So, granted I'm the only female in this thread, but I don't think that makes a difference. I've been curiously sick for the last two weeks. Not flu, but fever, energy most of the time with occasional excessive fatigue (3-4 hour naps necessary). I'm eating more, lifting HEAVY 5 days a week with no cardio other than walking around Capitol Hill (Seattle), but losing weight. I don't have much appetite but love food and can EAT most of the time no problem. On top of that I have weird muscle craps on and off, feel depressed unmotivated.

I'm NEVER sick and I drink almost a gallon of water a day, and sleep 6-8 hours every night.

I've been researching symptoms and "over training" fits the bill. I'm a CPT and know better right? But honestly I take the weekends off of training and don't feel like I'm working out TOO hard. Just killin' it when I do...5xWeek...

I can't say I know my symptoms are from overtraining without a doubt but it's pretty sketch. I know my body and this is just weird. I'm sick and tired of it. Any suggestions?

[KLMARB]

I train three days on, one day of rest. I do cardio or swim on my "off" days. I experienced overtraining when I started to shift some of my smaller groups onto the "off" days, like arms, core, etc. It ended up I was lifting/resistance training every single day. After about two weeks the symptoms began to set in, so I stopped. Now, I make sure I don't lift on the days I'm not supposed to, and its now back to normal....

[runswithscissor]

So just like the cure for cancer, the meaning of the universe, and being truly happy, they have no set answer for nor a definition of overtraining, which just reminds me of why they call it "medical practice".

Lets say at 41, juice free but supplement rich, been going to the gym on and off for 4 years, been down to 9% BF, but stuck now at 21.9%. Have 3 of the symptoms of over training but 2 are due to PTSD, not self diagnosed either.

No joint pain, no depression, in fact, if I don't go to the gym, I am more likely to be found face down in a bottle, which is why I go 6-7 days a week.

Workout is upper body 1 day for 2.5 - 3 hours, next day is legs and cardio for 2 - 2.5. Repeat as necessary.

Weight stacks are going up, or staying the same, nothing is going down. Even with cardio the average run time, about 8.7 minutes per mile on the treadmill is staying steady. I feel awesome everyday I go. I don't wake up sore, well...stiff a little but a hot shower helps. No debilitating stuff except for one shin splint.

Cut out all white flour, empty carbs and so on. When I was able to cut to 9%, I was homeless and unemployed and survived on 2 cups of white rice a day and water.

So I guess I do know that you can pack on muscle and lose fat at a rate that makes it look like you are not doing a damn thing, but is it possible to maintain a fat level as a fight or flight syndrome? I even gave up coffee just in case. I just can't figure it out. I can work out with the best of them but right in my mid section (and I can do crazy heavy weight curnches) it is not getting in shape, after 3 years.

Everything else looks good. I just don't want to have to go on a crazy diet or take diet pills to cut it. Any input as to fat vs. overtraining would be appreciated. I know the whole middle section is a bitch, I just can't figure out the stubborn body fat percentage. Thanks.

[JasonDB]

Again I think it depends on genetics, nutrition, your build up tolerance to training. I've done heavy squats AND deadlifts in the same day 3x a week and saw improvements consistently in both for 2 months this way (this was a year after coming off the juice permanently before my Meneire's got very bad). I've also spent 4 weeks doing deadlifts 5x a week early on in my training, in an attempt to bring the lift up, however I was doing zero cardio, eating a surplus of calories, and sleeping 10 hours a day at the time.

I'm not sure I've experienced true over training. I think it is an over-rated idea, and for most people only comes into play when you are doing high volume (20 sets per bodypart) or doing excessive heavy partials or forced negatives every workout, etc. Most particularly strong individuals never train to failure, as this (sorry for the bro science) seems to be the cause of CNS burnout.

As I've heard a few say "You are not over training until you see a signifigant drop in the weight you can handle for your core lifts." Otherwise you could just have the flu or a cold or some other medical condition.

[JasonDB]

Originally Posted by runswithscissor

So just like the cure for cancer, the meaning of the universe, and being truly happy, they have no set answer for nor a definition of overtraining, which just reminds me of why they call it "medical practice".

Lets say at 41, juice free but supplement rich, been going to the gym on and off for 4 years, been down to 9% BF, but stuck now at 21.9%. Have 3 of the symptoms of over training but 2 are due to PTSD, not self diagnosed either.

No joint pain, no depression, in fact, if I don't go to the gym, I am more likely to be found face down in a bottle, which is why I go 6-7 days a week.

Workout is upper body 1 day for 2.5 - 3 hours, next day is legs and cardio for 2 - 2.5. Repeat as necessary.

Weight stacks are going up, or staying the same, nothing is going down. Even with cardio the average run time, about 8.7 minutes per mile on the treadmill is staying steady. I feel awesome everyday I go. I don't wake up sore, well...stiff a little but a hot shower helps. No debilitating stuff except for one shin splint.

Cut out all white flour, empty carbs and so on. When I was able to cut to 9%, I was homeless and unemployed and survived on 2 cups of white rice a day and water.

So I guess I do know that you can pack on muscle and lose fat at a rate that makes it look like you are not doing a damn thing, but is it possible to maintain a fat level as a fight or flight syndrome? I even gave up coffee just in case. I just can't figure it out. I can work out with the best of them but right in my mid section (and I can do crazy heavy weight curnches) it is not getting in shape, after 3 years.

Everything else looks good. I just don't want to have to go on a crazy diet or take diet pills to cut it. Any input as to fat vs. overtraining would be appreciated. I know the whole middle section is a bitch, I just can't figure out the stubborn body fat percentage. Thanks.

Your lifts are staying the same or going up... therefore you are not over training. I've been on full body workouts 5 days a week for 6 weeks myself while losing weight (18 lbs in those 6 weeks) while doing liss almost daily, and seeing no signs of over training. I do not do HIIT, nor do I train to failure (at least not intentionally) however.

Continue to do what you are doing if your strenght is consistent. If you do not lose weight while trying to burn off your stubburb midsection, take a closer look at your caloric intake.

Also if working out every day is the only way you can keep yourself from being facedown in a bottle, then by all means train. I was married to an alcoholic for 3 years and I have a few in my family and know how it effects people. So good for you to find a way to kick the habit.

[Vanusk]

I cant say i agree that you can't overtrain. Depends on the person; an example.

I was hitting the gym hard , never missing a day going 4 days a week getting a full body workout twice a week (Push/pull with a rest day on wed and on sat/sun). Was also doing 30 min of medium intesnity cardio post workout. On the weekends i was Doing random things like dirtbike riding, camping somewhat physical activies and not every weekend.

Going onto month 4 one weekend i broke my foot and tore some ligaments. I was told by the dr dont touch the gym (I pretty much listened if i went in i would hit a little upper body but not do to much). Ended up taking an entire month off. The entire time i was off i had been maintaing my low carb diet around 2300 cals some days higher some days lower but not below 2200.

In that month off i lost something like 3-4 inchs on my waist, 15 pounds and my lifts had the biggest jump they had ever had. I added weight to every single lift i did; deadlift, squats, bench etc etc.

Prior to breaking my foot i was still seeing gains but nothing like this. I noticed was starting to get tired alot and was adding less and less weight. I was sleeping 10 hours a day and still tired. I tried increasing my calls to 2800 and still didnt help.

[honeydew]

Overtraining can definatey happen most pple don't realize it's happening to them or don't mind and fight through it. It can be but not always related to diet.

If your muscles don't have enough time to recover they're overtrained. And in recovery is when you grow right? So if you're lifting heavy six times a week and growing the point is you will grow faster if you dropped it to five or four times a week as Vanusk said.

It's less common in professionals b/c of their supplements and endurance/conditioning. Most overtraining episodes happen when pple jump into it to fast....taking a couple of months off and then starting a training schedule of six - seven days a week. If you build up to that your body will be have time to adjust to the strain properly.

Last year I fractured my elbow and tore ligaments in my knew with out falling or any accident....due to overtraining. AND I was still seeing gains in my squats/deadifts/upperbody....

[honeydew]

Runswithscissors;

are you doing 2.5-3 hours of weight training at a time?
If so try breaking that up. I'm not sure if you train day 1 and day 2 and that's your week or if you do them a couple of times a week.

If the latter is true, which I think is what you meant, try dividing up your body parts and keeping your sessions at 45 min- 60min a time. This makes a DRASTIC difference.

If you feel like 45 min of weight training a day five times a day isn't enough, lift heavier! They will definately go up (assuming proper nutrition b/f and after)

Seeing how your goal right now is bringing down body fat you can add 40 min of cardio (try and switch this up as often as possible type and go b/n HIIt and LIS)

I'm sure you'll see massive results with this/ hope this was relevant to what you were asking.

[JasonDB]

Originally Posted by honeydew

Overtraining can definatey happen most pple don't realize it's happening to them or don't mind and fight through it. It can be but not always related to diet.

If your muscles don't have enough time to recover they're overtrained. And in recovery is when you grow right? So if you're lifting heavy six times a week and growing the point is you will grow faster if you dropped it to five or four times a week as Vanusk said.

It's less common in professionals b/c of their supplements and endurance/conditioning. Most overtraining episodes happen when pple jump into it to fast....taking a couple of months off and then starting a training schedule of six - seven days a week. If you build up to that your body will be have time to adjust to the strain properly.

Last year I fractured my elbow and tore ligaments in my knew with out falling or any accident....due to overtraining. AND I was still seeing gains in my squats/deadifts/upperbody....

Stating that during recovery is when hypertrophy happens is bro science. Most of your adaptations to training stimulous occur within 48 hours of a training session, if I recall from the scientific literature, however someone who knows otherwise please feel free to correct me.

Are you certain your injury was due to over-training, or was it simply by handling a load your connective tissue was incapable of sustaining?

If you were seeing gains in your squats and deadlifts I am 100% certain you were not overtraining.

[honeydew]

it is fact that your muscles grow in rest....not broscience at all. your muscles adapting is not the same thing either
you can get tighter but you won't grow if you don't have adequate rest.

yes it was diagnosed as overtraining

[JasonDB]

Originally Posted by honeydew

it is fact that your muscles grow in rest....not broscience at all. your muscles adapting is not the same thing either
you can get tighter but you won't grow if you don't have adequate rest.

yes it was diagnosed as overtraining

I'm saying your Dr was wrong on this one. You've both fractured a bone AND torn connective tissue while lifting as a result of over training? My question is, what movements were you doing, with how much weight, and what was your bodyweight at the time? I'm more inclined to believe this was sloppy form and cheating up weight.

I've done 2 a days 6 days a week for a short peroid of time, as well as when trying to get my deadlift up, was doing deads 5 days a week (and all of my lifts went up during this time) around 7 years ago, and most certainly did not damage any connective tissue or break any bones. In fact I'll state that I've NEVER met anyone who broke a bone weight lifting out of many people I know who train to excess by most definitions.

Every injury I know of from people weight training has been becuase of improper form, losing their balance and falling, dropping a weight on themselves or in one case, a friend with previously damaged shoulders doing behind the head military presses and dislocating one.

If your strength was going up you were NOT overtraining according to the definition used in the sports or bodybuilding world.

I will agree that muscle need adequite rest, however the question becomes, how much time is required? If you can bench 315 for 5 sets of 5 reps, and you basically fail on the last rep of the 5th set... you go home rest, take a 4 hour nap and return to the gym and are able to repeat the exact same performance 8 hours later with 5 more lbs, have you recovered from the previous session? I would say you have recovered, adapted and made progress. There is aboslutely no resistance training routine that requires a full week for the muscles to recover for training again and to make progress. There has never been a study which showed optimal results from training a lift once a week. Optimal results have been seen under laboratory conditions at frequincies between 2 and 5 times a week, depending on the individual (genetics and training experience), lifestyle factors and the intensity and volume of the training. Most people, according to all the research I have seen will generally do best training a muscle 3 times a week, in terms of strength. If you buy into the idea that progressive gains in stregnth and more importantly progressive overload are the keys to muscle growth, then training a lift 3 times a week for most people should yield solid results.

[honeydew]

I don't really know what the last paragraph has to do the with the point I was making.

You stated that adequate rest is an absolute credential. As for the time of rest it depends on the person and lifestyle. I don't know any bb'rs that train for a week and take a week off?? (definately not what I was saying)
HOWEVER, taking a week off after a couple of months WILL boost results.
The question of overtraining is not if you're making gains or not but HOW much MORE gains you could be making.

As for me sorry the doc wasn't wrong on this one. I didn't fracture my bone under the squat machine (it happened outside the gym) and worked with a trainer my form was fine.
My bodyweight was 115, and I was squating 110 at the highest, same for deadlift.

The stress fracture occurred and torn ligaments occurred b/c of yes too much stress WITHOUT enough rest in between for everything to recover.

I was also a cocktail waitress and working late hours running around with heels and heavy trays....I didn't take this into account hence the results...
IF I was sitting at home on the couch (which I never do) I'm CERTAIN that my muscles would have recovered faster.

I think you're disagreeing with me for arguments sake, and unable to make a diagnosis without knowing the facts involved.

As for getting sick while overtraining and blaming it on the flu. Is in most cases incorrect. If you are overtrained your immune system is considerably suffering therefore your body won't be able to fight off the virus as quickly. So yes you do have the flu, but if you weren't overtrained your body would have fought and won the battle.