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  1. #1
    Registered User stevem77's Avatar
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    Is a high protein diet really needed?

    Is it really needed or optimal muscle growth?

    Has any one got ant scientific knowledge to back it up?


    Not denying the claim just i have been reading Patrick Holdfords Optimal Nutrition book which i highly reccomend. But he claims with a wealth of scientific studies to back it up; that a diet high in protein will result in rapid calcium loss which will increase the risk of osteoporosis, and will result in weak bones that are easy fractured in later life, arthritis etc.

    Also has anyone seen good results on a moderate protein diet?
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    what do you consider to be low/moderate/high??? give people a number to go on and they will be able to help you a lil more.
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    Registered User stevem77's Avatar
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    moderate being about 80g - 100g.
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    the calcium loss from high protein diet is horribly over exagerated. But you also don't need anything more than 1g/lb of protein, and most people could probably build muscle on even less.
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    Registered User stevem77's Avatar
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    Is there any evidence stating that you need 1g per lb of bodyweight.

    if the average person can maintain their bodyweight and live with optimum health on 40g - 70g a day why would someone require 200g of protein a day just to add a few pounds of muscle a month.

    And there is scientific evidence backing the calcium loss theory.

    Not saying i am completely against high protein intake as i am currently on a diet of 1g per lb. But the book has got me thinking.
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    Registered User stevem77's Avatar
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    I have also noticed high protein diets make you p*ss alot.
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    Internet Pirate Opies's Avatar
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    No. Most literature shows you need 1g/kg, but there is no reason not to be safe and get double that amount, plus it helps to get the extra calories, and whey is cheap. Like I said, the calcium loss is way overblown. Unless you are a 60 year old woman who doesn't have any calcium in their diet, it will not effect you. Plus I guarantee you anyone supplementing protein, and taking in 250g+ per day is also taking a multivitamin and drinking milk. If the calcium loss you speak of was as rapid as it's said to be, people like the inuit (eskimos) who eat a diet based almost purely on meat, would all have osteoporosis, yet that isn't the case.
    Originally Posted by stevem77 View Post
    I have also noticed high protein diets make you p*ss alot.
    I haven't. I've noticed drinking a lot of water makes you piss a lot
    Last edited by Opies; 02-04-2009 at 03:12 AM.
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    Registered User stevem77's Avatar
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    inuit (eskimos) have a high risk of osteoporosis type it in google.

    Studies have shown that a high protein intake will result in calcium loss that cannot be replenished through intaking more calcium and that calcium loss in your urine increases by 50%.

    http://www.chiphealth.com/topics/bon...revention.html
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    80-100 grams a day is certainly enough to meet minimal requirements but is absolutely not optimal if your goal is maximizing muscle growth.
    Food quality does not change the laws of thermodynamics. Provided you consume adequate protein, EFAs, fiber, and vitamins and minerals you can eat whatever you want.

    The only difference between a 'clean' and a 'dirty' food is how much of it you eat.

    The Glycemic Index is meaningless unless you eat carbs alone in a fasted state. As soon as you add fat, protein, or fiber to a meal or have eaten in the previous 4-6 hours the GI is irrelevant.
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    from my understanding, animal protein leads to osteoporosis because humans do not have the digestive enzyme called uricase that is needed to break down uric acid that is found in all meat. so the body leeches minerals from other parts of our body (mostly bone) to help dilute the uric acid and prevent toxicity.

    plant protein, on the other hand, does not contain uric acid. I have never heard of osteoporosis in a high protein plant-based diet.
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    Originally Posted by stevem77 View Post
    if the average person can maintain their bodyweight and live with optimum health on 40g - 70g a day why would someone require 200g of protein a day just to add a few pounds of muscle a month.
    They don't!

    454 grams of protein = 1 lb. Muscle is 70% water. Assuming an ideal metabolism and assuming that the remaining 30% of muscle is just protein (it's actually less than 30%), adding 2 lbs of muscle a month would only require [(454*2)(.3)]/30 = 9 extra grams of protein per day.

    In my opinion the "suggested protein requirements" for muscle building are ludicrously inflated! Why do you think guys in prison are able to build such incredible physiques on such a low protein intake?
    Last edited by Catchol; 02-04-2009 at 12:51 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Catchol View Post
    They don't!

    454 grams of protein = 1 lb. Muscle is 70% water. Assuming an ideal metabolism and assuming that the remaining 30% of muscle is just protein (it's actually less than 30%), adding 2 lbs of muscle a month would only require [(454*2)(.3)]/30 = 9 extra grams of protein per day.

    In my opinion the "suggested protein requirements" for muscle building are ludicrously inflated! Why do you think guys in prison are able to build such incredible physiques on such a low protein intake?
    Don't forget that muscle isn't the only thing made out of protein.Also a lot of protein is stripped of its nitrogen and used as a source of energy or to make uric acid or urea.
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    Originally Posted by Opies View Post
    No. Most literature shows you need 1g/kg, but there is no reason not to be safe and get double that amount, plus it helps to get the extra calories, and whey is cheap. Like I said, the calcium loss is way overblown. Unless you are a 60 year old woman who doesn't have any calcium in their diet, it will not effect you. Plus I guarantee you anyone supplementing protein, and taking in 250g+ per day is also taking a multivitamin and drinking milk. If the calcium loss you speak of was as rapid as it's said to be, people like the inuit (eskimos) who eat a diet based almost purely on meat, would all have osteoporosis, yet that isn't the case.


    I haven't. I've noticed drinking a lot of water makes you piss a lot
    What are your credentials? You sure do guarantee a lot of things for not having a clue what you're talking about.
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    Originally Posted by Catchol View Post
    They don't!

    454 grams of protein = 1 lb. Muscle is 70% water. Assuming an ideal metabolism and assuming that the remaining 30% of muscle is just protein (it's actually less than 30%), adding 2 lbs of muscle a month would only require [(454*2)(.3)]/30 = 9 extra grams of protein per day.

    In my opinion the "suggested protein requirements" for muscle building are ludicrously inflated! Why do you think guys in prison are able to build such incredible physiques on such a low protein intake?
    In prison, they supplement their low dietary protein in the laundry room when no one is around
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    Registered User Phosphate bond's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by imnothere3221 View Post
    Don't forget that muscle isn't the only thing made out of protein.Also a lot of protein is stripped of its nitrogen and used as a source of energy or to make uric acid or urea.
    Other organs in the body have amino acid turnover but they aren't growing (except for maybe hair and nails).

    Really the amount of positive nitrogen balance needed to accumulate muscle is not that great.

    It is just the turnover of amino acids can be so high. For example on a 40% protein cutting diet most if not all those amino acids are being used for either energy or turnover (but not accumulation...unless muscle is being gained)
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    Registered User stevem77's Avatar
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    How much protein do people posting in this thread consume?

    Has anyone experiminted with moderate protein high carb diets and had positive results?
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    Originally Posted by stevem77 View Post
    How much protein do people posting in this thread consume?
    About 100-120 grams / day. I'm 5'10", 185 lbs, about 15% bodyfat. So I'm not exactly small. I make sure I get my protein from a variety of sources.
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    Registered User stevem77's Avatar
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    Im 5' 11'' - 6' 172 pounds around 12-13% bf at the moment i consume 180grams of protein per day.

    I am planning a diet where i am only eating 130grams of protein with 60% of my 3000 a day calories coming from carbs, 20% fat and 20% protein.

    This 60% - 20% - 20% ratio is what is recommended by nutrisionist's for a healthy diet; i dont see why a bodybuilder should be any different exept consume slightly more calories
    Last edited by stevem77; 02-05-2009 at 01:50 PM.
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    Registered User stevem77's Avatar
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    i will also be cutting down on meat protein and including more vegetarian protein sources
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    Originally Posted by stevem77 View Post
    Im 5' 11'' - 6' 172 pounds around 12-13% bf at the moment i consume 180grams of protein per day.

    I am planning a diet where i am only eating 130grams of protein with 60% of my 3000 a day calories coming from carbs, 20% fat and 20% protein.

    This 60% - 20% - 20% ratio is what is recommended by nutrisionist's for a healthy diet; i dont see why a bodybuilder should be any different exept consume slightly more calories
    I think bodybuilders would do well on a high fat, moderate protein, moderate carb diet. This is what I've been doing (along with the Warrior Diet) and it has worked very well for me. As long as the majority of the fat comes from "good" sources (ie, EFA sources), this eating plan seems very sustainable in the long-term. Most of the carbs I get come from bread and pasta, beans, milk, and whatever carbs are in the green veggies I eat.
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    Registered User stevem77's Avatar
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    Never tried high fat diets. Could work well if you stick to healthy fats and avoided sat fats.

    Do you not find that your energy levels are lower with high fat diets?
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    Originally Posted by stevem77 View Post
    Never tried high fat diets. Could work well if you stick to healthy fats and avoided sat fats.

    Do you not find that your energy levels are lower with high fat diets?
    No, I find the opposite is true for me.
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    I'd say that higher protein intakes are needed when cutting, not so much when bulking.

    Much easier to be in a positive nitrogen balance when overconsuming calories.

    1 g/lb. is pretty much enough. Some (sane) bodybuilders go up to 1.5 grams per lb. I'd say that's about the maximum. 1 g/lb. is fine, though. Bulking is more of a battle of adding more carbs than protein. Once protein needs are met, adding calories in the form of carbs does a better job since protein has a pretty bad energy turnover ratio and extra just gets converted to glucose, anyway. If you're insulin resistant, I'd add more calories from nuts or legumes to get some fat in.
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    Originally Posted by stevem77 View Post
    Never tried high fat diets. Could work well if you stick to healthy fats and avoided sat fats.
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    In my opinion, having a high protein diet is not advisable. Why? Because, the excess protein will just be converted into glucose. This will eventually be stored as fat if not used by the body. Moderate protein intake is still the ideal diet.
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    Originally Posted by stevem77 View Post
    Never tried high fat diets. Could work well if you stick to healthy fats and avoided sat fats.

    Do you not find that your energy levels are lower with high fat diets?
    I am currently doing a keto diet. In my case, I noticed that my energy levels were lower than when I was in a balanced diet. However, with a modified keto diet called the TKD, wherein carbs are ingested prior and after a workout, energy were at par with when I was on a balanced diet.
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    Originally Posted by kamikenze View Post
    In my opinion, having a high protein diet is not advisable. Why? Because, the excess protein will just be converted into glucose. This will eventually be stored as fat if not used by the body. Moderate protein intake is still the ideal diet.
    All carbs, fats and protein are converted into glucose as this is what the body uses for energy. Too much of anything will lead to it being stored as fat.

    The reason that i am reducing my protein intake is because of the health benefits not because i believe it will make me fat.
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    Originally Posted by kamikenze View Post
    I am currently doing a keto diet. In my case, I noticed that my energy levels were lower than when I was in a balanced diet. However, with a modified keto diet called the TKD, wherein carbs are ingested prior and after a workout, energy were at par with when I was on a balanced diet.

    In my opinion keto diets are a waste of time and are harmful for your health. I dont beleive cutting out any key nutrients should be done if you care about your health. Carbs are your bodys primary source of energy and at least a moderate amount is needed.
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    Originally Posted by Jay Rawd View Post
    Once protein needs are met, adding calories in the form of carbs does a better job since protein has a pretty bad energy turnover ratio .
    Could you please eplain
    seriously
    I am interested in the energy turnover
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    Originally Posted by stevem77 View Post
    In my opinion keto diets are a waste of time and are harmful for your health. I dont beleive cutting out any key nutrients should be done if you care about your health. Carbs are your bodys primary source of energy and at least a moderate amount is needed.
    what carbs WOULD you include that are key to your health?
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