NEVER BULK: Reverse/Warped Broscience? Or Partial Truth?

[chosenone28]

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1268956

In this article it states that by adding fat to your body you are forever adding or increasing your bodys capacity to store fat. So if you gain any amount of fat while trying to build LBM, which is what most people say is going to happen...wouldn't this article basically be proclaiming that it is futile to try to build muscle? Or at least saying that if you want muscle you must accept some "increased capacity" to hold fat? It just seems that this guys viewpoints are a little extreme. Any comments on the validity of the article claims, and just general thoughts would be appreciated.

[Jay Rawd]

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1268956

In this article it states that by adding fat to your body you are forever adding or increasing your bodys capacity to store fat. So if you gain any amount of fat while trying to build LBM, which is what most people say is going to happen...wouldn't this article basically be proclaiming that it is futile to try to build muscle? Or at least saying that if you want muscle you must accept some "increased capacity" to hold fat? It just seems that this guys viewpoints are a little extreme. Any comments on the validity of the article claims, and just general thoughts would be appreciated.

Actually it seems like you can't read.

He just says don't overdo it.

He says CLEAN BULKING is the way, not force-feeding and junk food binging.

Jeez.

In a nutshell, overeat calories BUT NOT BY MUCH.

[chosenone28]

I wasnt asking about eating junk food or w/e. I was wondering in the instance that my maintenance calories are say 2200 and I want to put on mass, with most of it being LBM, and I ate 2700 a day, and i gain 10 pounds over some span of time, and 75% of that is muscle and 25% is fat. Is it really true that I have increased my bodies overall ability to store fat in the future?

I am a generally nice guy. Please if you can be informative, do so, but dont put words into my mouth or be an ass. Your reading of it is how I read it. My friend read it different and we were argueing about it. He interpreted it the way you thought I interpreted it (He loves McDonalds).

[ThirstyPretzels]

im pretty certain we all have a number of fat cells our whole life. they just get bigger or smaller...trying to find link.......................

[ThirstyPretzels]

this might help....

"When a fat cell grows to about three times its normal size, it can divide and make new fat cells. How much fat a cell can handle before it divides varies from person to person. You can shrink the size of your fat cells but you can?t shrink the number"

from http://calorielab.com/news/2006/08/1...never-say-die/

[determined4000]

this might help....

"When a fat cell grows to about three times its normal size, it can divide and make new fat cells. How much fat a cell can handle before it divides varies from person to person. You can shrink the size of your fat cells but you can?t shrink the number"

from http://calorielab.com/news/2006/08/1...never-say-die/

informative
reps

[Ibballard]

Fat cells primarily propagate in very early childhood, and again at puberty (~12-14 years old). At these points, fat cell levels are mostly established through life, and mostly just moderate levels in the cells. You can multiply them by adding a lot of fat, but it's difficult. And it's almost impossible to remove them, without surgical means.

[Catchol]

And it's almost impossible to remove them, without surgical means.

There are numerous (safe) ways to remove fat cells from your body using various chemicals means. I'm not going to get any more specific then that because we are currently investigating these techniques, but anyone who really wants the information will find it on Pubmed.

[krogtaar]

There are numerous (safe) ways to remove fat cells from your body using various chemicals means. I'm not going to get any more specific then that because we are currently investigating these techniques, but anyone who really wants the information will find it on Pubmed.

who's we? I've seen studies suggesting with more extreme fat loss than most of us experience for a long time the cells will start killing them selves off, or at least not reproducing. (anyone have a clue what the life cycle for fat cells is?) something to do with the cell not being efficient as a storage mechanism with a low fat content as opposed to lees cells with more fat. because each cell has to expend a certain amount of energy to keep itself ticking, aside from storing it.

[JustLost]

Actually it seems like you can't read.

He just says don't overdo it.

He says CLEAN BULKING is the way, not force-feeding and junk food binging.

Jeez.

In a nutshell, overeat calories BUT NOT BY MUCH.

That sounds way too much like a reasonable middle ground.

[justin36253]

People before me have been correct. Specifically in puberty you determine how many fat cells you will have. These fat cells can grow larger/smaller depending no your activity level and exercise. HOwever, the actual gaining of fat cells is much harder and more complex.

[Jay Rawd]

BTW, Chris Thib sucked at his first cutting diet. He actually ended up smaller than when he began bodybuilding. That is a Rod Blagoyevich epic fail.

I mean on my first bulk I got up to 30% bodyfat (obese) and I cut down to being much smaller but still about 30 lb. heavier than when I first started lifting, and with much less bodyfat to boot. What type of idiotic diet did he follow that caused him to lose all of his hard-earned LBM and then some?

[Moondogg]

Lyle McDonald explains it quite well on his website and in his books.

Once you reach about 15% bf you body starts to partition calories more toward fat storage as oppossed to muscle repair. Simply put it becomes harder to put on muscle once you go over 15%bf. This is why doing a hard bulk, or long bulk will not give optimum results.

The most amount of weight you should gain is about 1lb a week, and between 50-80% of this gain will be muscle depending on your training program and how well your body naturally partitions the calories(your genetics). Roughly 500-600 cals over maint. each day should acheive this. Any more cals than this and you will gain too much fat.

Im currently at about 9.5%bf, im going to lean down to about 7% then bulk again until I reach about 13-14% then repeat the cycle. This should give my body the best possible conditions for adding muscle.

[tkxii]

[QUOTE=Moondogg;282972911]Lyle McDonald explains it quite well on his website and in his books.

Once you reach about 15% bf you body starts to partition calories more toward fat storage as oppossed to muscle repair. Simply put it becomes harder to put on muscle once you go over 15%bf. This is why doing a hard bulk, or long bulk will not give optimum results.

QUOTE]


That's some nice info. And that sucks that the number of fat cells you have are determined during puberty, because that's when i ate the most and gained weight!! no wonder i have so much stubborn fat, too many fat cells

anyway, i read the tnation article, just don't overdo it is right. Don't be like that guy in the picture who's a fat slob, forcefeeding yourself will no lead to more muscular gains, just fat gains, You onl yneed to eat a little above maintainence, and some people, like TOm Venuto, build muscle and burn fat at the same time. I'm experimenting with this at the moment.

[chosenone28]

Lyle McDonald explains it quite well on his website and in his books.

Once you reach about 15% bf you body starts to partition calories more toward fat storage as oppossed to muscle repair. Simply put it becomes harder to put on muscle once you go over 15%bf. This is why doing a hard bulk, or long bulk will not give optimum results.

The most amount of weight you should gain is about 1lb a week, and between 50-80% of this gain will be muscle depending on your training program and how well your body naturally partitions the calories(your genetics). Roughly 500-600 cals over maint. each day should acheive this. Any more cals than this and you will gain too much fat.

Im currently at about 9.5%bf, im going to lean down to about 7% then bulk again until I reach about 13-14% then repeat the cycle. This should give my body the best possible conditions for adding muscle.

Repped. I just bought all his books and am diving into them now. I love discussing/thinking about nutrition. Too bad I am going for a Business Law degree lol.

[Phosphate bond]

who's we? I've seen studies suggesting with more extreme fat loss than most of us experience for a long time the cells will start killing them selves off, or at least not reproducing. (anyone have a clue what the life cycle for fat cells is?) something to do with the cell not being efficient as a storage mechanism with a low fat content as opposed to lees cells with more fat. because each cell has to expend a certain amount of energy to keep itself ticking, aside from storing it.

Its been a while since I looked this up but check out PGF 2 alpha and adipose cells (that maybe be natures way of regulating adipose cell number).

P.S. I agree mostly that only people who have low bodyfat should bulk. In those cases the extra fat acts like a energy buffer for in-between-meals.

Lyle McDonald explains it quite well on his website and in his books.

Once you reach about 15% bf you body starts to partition calories more toward fat storage as oppossed to muscle repair. Simply put it becomes harder to put on muscle once you go over 15%bf. This is why doing a hard bulk, or long bulk will not give optimum results.

I agree with this too. As body fat accumulates past a certain point using it becomes less and less efficient.

[Ricky_k]

Repped. I just bought all his books and am diving into them now. I love discussing/thinking about nutrition. Too bad I am going for a Business Law degree lol.

You can still be involved in the industry !


like defending someone of this forum who is being sued by MUSCLETECH

[chosenone28]

You can still be involved in the industry !


like defending someone of this forum who is being sued by MUSCLETECH

Haha YES! Actually the long term goal would be to somehow apply my law and business degrees to the nutritional/supplement industries. We all have to have dreams right?

[garbury]

I didnt read the article so i may be way off on its subject matter, but i actually believe the leaner you are the easier it is to stay that way. I used to never be super lean, and when i cut down 18 months ago for the first time, it was tough and long but definately manageable. Since then I have never lost my abs yet have gained at least 10 pounds of muscle (judging by equal bodyfat %) while drinking 2x/week on average. I just eat to stay lean and count my drinking as cheating and suck up the slower muscle gains.

All of my friends are like this too. They have been ripped and stay ripped. It's all diet and never letting yourself go. It also helps to never stop working out too, but we also enjoy frequents binges at local eateries.

Back whe ni was chbbier at about 17%, the fat would not lose as fast, but seemed to gain rather quickly. Granted im probably 30 lbs more muscle now, it definately seemes the leaner you are the leaner you stay.

[Sean_Jmu]

Iv been 30%+ Id imagine, through my teens, now I can pile fat on over the course of a few weeks

its scares me to try and bulk because Im scared of putting on 7%+ body fat on in 8 weeks or something

Im going to bulk come april but I'll need to make it especially clean because I did a 6 week bulk and think I'll have to cut for about 3 months

Iv basically screwed my body through childhood

[Sean_Jmu]

I didnt read the article so i may be way off on its subject matter, but i actually believe the leaner you are the easier it is to stay that way. I used to never be super lean, and when i cut down 18 months ago for the first time, it was tough and long but definately manageable. Since then I have never lost my abs yet have gained at least 10 pounds of muscle (judging by equal bodyfat %) while drinking 2x/week on average. I just eat to stay lean and count my drinking as cheating and suck up the slower muscle gains.

All of my friends are like this too. They have been ripped and stay ripped. It's all diet and never letting yourself go. It also helps to never stop working out too, but we also enjoy frequents binges at local eateries.

Back whe ni was chbbier at about 17%, the fat would not lose as fast, but seemed to gain rather quickly. Granted im probably 30 lbs more muscle now, it definately seemes the leaner you are the leaner you stay.

how have you managed to bulk up so gradually and stayed lean, whats your diet? how do you workout (training, cardio, sportsd etc)

[Jay Rawd]

Iv been 30%+ Id imagine, through my teens, now I can pile fat on over the course of a few weeks

its scares me to try and bulk because Im scared of putting on 7%+ body fat on in 8 weeks or something

Im going to bulk come april but I'll need to make it especially clean because I did a 6 week bulk and think I'll have to cut for about 3 months

Iv basically screwed my body through childhood

Just eat SLIGHTLY over maintenance. Like 15.3x bodyweight in lbs. The gains are slow, but overall quite linear and you don't get fat. Those gains can be observed over time frames of years. But you will stay lean and slowly improve your physique, little by little.

So if you weigh 211, you would eat around 3230 Calories. For macros, I would do 59% Carbs, 26% Protein (1 gram per lb. of bodyweight), and 15% Fat. As the scale goes up, so do the Protein and Carbs, while keeping Fat calories/grams the same.

With this slight caloric excess you should expect gains of 1-2 lb. a month. This means that you would adjust your caloric intake slightly every month by adding 1-2 more grams of protein and 1-2 grams of Carbs and keeping fat intake the same. As you gain weight, less calories will come from fat than from carbs and protein, but it will be a very slight difference (like 60% Carbs 27% Protein and 13% Fat or something like that).

[lth]

Sorry, but if someone wants to make solid gains, you have to bulk....i think the article is more or less just saying don't do a lee preist type bulk in the offseason. Which is true, alot of things change physiologically that you don't want as a bodybuilder. BUT like jay rawd said, you have to eat more cals to gain, thats just common f*cking sense lol. Imo, i think around 14% should be the highest one should get to as far as bodyfat goes in the offseason.

I know last year was my first actual bulk and the gains i made were unreal, i weigh more this year at a lower bodyfat percentage than i did the year before on a bulk, no ****. Alot of that has to do with a drinking problem/depression i was going through before that but still that makes a case.

[KJR246]

Just wondering. Say you were already decently fat at one point. You lost the weight. Then you got into bodybuilding. The article says new fat cells are formed when you gain the fat, making it harder to cut. But say the fat cells are already there from being fat. If the new gained fat was still less fat than you had before, would you not get new fat cells and just fill the onld ones? I thought about that possibility when I read the article.

[chosenone28]

Just wondering. Say you were already decently fat at one point. You lost the weight. Then you got into bodybuilding. The article says new fat cells are formed when you gain the fat, making it harder to cut. But say the fat cells are already there from being fat. If the new gained fat was still less fat than you had before, would you not get new fat cells and just fill the onld ones? I thought about that possibility when I read the article.

yea thats what came to my mind, hence why i made the post. I understand bulking by eating slightly over maintence is crucial for LEAN gains, but pinpointing your caloric requirements isnt always super easy. I guess I am just worried about 1. not eating enough to make solid gains and 2. eating too much that I do a lee priest lol. Thats why i have been slowly adding calories and monitoring my bodyfat and weight.

[Obnoxious123]

i didn't read the article, but i'm assuming they are also trying to sell you one of their products.

t-nation = lulz

[Jay Rawd]

i didn't read the article, but i'm assuming they are also trying to sell you one of their products.

t-nation = lulz

x2

In every other paragraph of most T-Nation articles, it's always some supplement push

"That's why I always supplement with SURGE PWO becuz its got teh BCAA's and whey hydrolysatez + added phenilalanin for teh higher insulinz to drive teh proteenz into ur muncles lol"