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  1. #1
    LIVING determined4000's Avatar
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    Elevated Liver enzymes

    Just got blood work back and my liver enzymes are at 105 (should be 15-55 i believe) so it is very high. I eat clean, almost nothing processed, don't drink, and get plenty of fluids. Any idea what it could be. Anyone with experience?
    I posted in the reg. nut. section as well but you guys seem muhc more knowledgeable.
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    Did you workout the day before or the day that you had the blood work done? This can cause your liver enzymes to be elevated. If so, get the blood work done over, and take a few days off before you get it done. This happened to me in the past, in fact I think I had the exact # that you listed for yourself.
    Last edited by Toddrick; 01-22-2009 at 04:04 PM.
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  3. #3
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    I had/have the same thing, it was the day after a workout. So that might be it. I'll check the number later.
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    LIVING determined4000's Avatar
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    Over 100 is really high though
    And as I said it has been high every time and gradually getting worse.
    Thanks for the input thouth
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    Originally Posted by determined4000 View Post
    Just got blood work back and my liver enzymes are at 105 (should be 15-55 i believe) so it is very high. I eat clean, almost nothing processed, don't drink, and get plenty of fluids. Any idea what it could be. Anyone with experience?
    I posted in the reg. nut. section as well but you guys seem muhc more knowledgeable.
    1. which 'liver enzyme' (there are several - each of which mean different things)
    2. medications and supplements you are on?
    3. other medical comorbidities (i.e: significant illness or physical ailment besides being way, way too skinny )
    4. family history of liver disease?
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  6. #6
    Registered User reefpicker's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by determined4000 View Post
    Just got blood work back and my liver enzymes are at 105 (should be 15-55 i believe) so it is very high. I eat clean, almost nothing processed, don't drink, and get plenty of fluids. Any idea what it could be. Anyone with experience?
    I posted in the reg. nut. section as well but you guys seem muhc more knowledgeable.
    I guess we are not that knowledgeable over there then

    I would say it is more than 50% likely that you tested that high because you have reached a very low BF and BMI.

    What is your BMI now?

    How much do you weight NOW?

    Here is my take on it, which you already know:
    Hepatocellular injuries observed in patients with an eating disorder prior to nutritional treatment.

    Tsukamoto M, Tanaka A, Arai M, Ishii N, Ohta D, Horiki N, Fujita Y.
    Department of Internal Medicine, St. Luke's International Hospital, Tokyo. tukamsa@luke.or.jp

    BACKGROUND/AIMS: Although hepatocellular injuries are occasionally observed in patients with an eating disorder, such as anorexia nervosa (AN), it remains unclear how malnutrition in patients with AN causes hepatocellular damage. In this retrospective study, we aimed to reveal the characteristics of hepatocellular injuries in patients with an eating disorder without any nutritional treatment, to eliminate the possible hepatotoxic effects of nutritional support. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Twenty-five patients with an eating disorder who visited St. Luke's International Hospital were enrolled. No nutritional treatment had been performed for these patients. The diagnosis of eating disorder as well as typing (anorexia nervosa or bulimia nervosa) was made according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-4). We reviewed the charts of these patients and examined the clinical parameters. RESULTS: Elevation of serum alanine aminotransferase (ALT) was found in 13 out of 25 (52%), all of whom were categorized as AN. In 13 AN patients with elevated ALT, the median of serum ALT values was 92 [39-438] IU/L. The body mass index (BMI) was significantly lower (13.5 vs. 17.3, p=0.011), and the duration since the onset of AN was shorter (4.2 years vs. 8.9 years, p=0.037) in patients with elevated ALT. The age was younger in patients with elevated ALT, even though not significant (24.5 vs. 29.8, p=0.139). Logistic regression analysis revealed that only BMI was a significant determinant for the development of hepatocellular injuries (OR=3.46; 95% CI 1.06-11.34, p=0.041). Imaging studies failed to demonstrate any abnormalities, including fatty liver. CONCLUSION: The current study indicated that lower BMI might significantly contribute to the development of hepatocellular injuries in AN patients prior to any nutritional treatments.
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  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by reefpicker View Post
    I guess we are not that knowledgeable over there then
    He just didn't like the answer...
    No sir, I don't like it.
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  8. #8
    Trance Brah BigDaveo11's Avatar
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    I have the same problem, although mine were really high, upwards of 170. It came up after my physical when i got my blood drawn, thought it was just from drinking and partying for a few days before i got tested. Told the doc all the supplements I was taking (NO shotgun). Went off any supps for a month or so, numbers went way back down almost to normal. Wanted to test again to see if it was really the supplements that were causing it. Went through a cycle of NO shotgun and NO synthesize, got tested again after finishing both, numbers were way off the charts again close to 200, doc said to stop supps immediatly, that the numbers were way severe and could result in early death. Obviously this was serious so I stopped all supplements for good, takes at least 6 months for liver levels to go way back to normal, been off for about a month now, going in soon to get tested again. Doc didn't know much about supplements, but i also had elevated nitrogen levels in my blood (makes sense from the NO products)
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  9. #9
    Registered User reefpicker's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BigDaveo11 View Post
    I have the same problem, although mine were really high, upwards of 170. It came up after my physical when i got my blood drawn, thought it was just from drinking and partying for a few days before i got tested. Told the doc all the supplements I was taking (NO shotgun). Went off any supps for a month or so, numbers went way back down almost to normal. Wanted to test again to see if it was really the supplements that were causing it. Went through a cycle of NO shotgun and NO synthesize, got tested again after finishing both, numbers were way off the charts again close to 200, doc said to stop supps immediatly, that the numbers were way severe and could result in early death. Obviously this was serious so I stopped all supplements for good, takes at least 6 months for liver levels to go way back to normal, been off for about a month now, going in soon to get tested again. Doc didn't know much about supplements, but i also had elevated nitrogen levels in my blood (makes sense from the NO products)
    Odd... I always view those supplements as being mostly water... LOL

    But, seriously, did you also changed your gym routine? diet?

    What about the numbers? Are you sure it was AST and not something else?

    Those things have Creatine, and it would make more sense for serum Creatinine to be elevated.

    They are also high in AAs, so that can potentially be a problem for other values...

    Also:
    How To Prepare

    To prepare for an aspartate aminotransferase (AST) test:

    * Avoid strenuous exercise just before having this test done.
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  10. #10
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    Good to know about the exercising before aspect, I will make sure I do not workout on the same day as my next test. I do not have my numbers with me, I just kind of narrowed it down to the cause, being supplements (shotgun/synthesize). The only other "stuff" I was taking was ON whey protein, and a multi, fish oil. Didn't change my diet at all, ate clean with moderate carbs, fat, high protein. After my first test, I got tested again a few weeks later and my numbers had come way down but guess it takes up to 6 months for numbers to go back to normal so it will be interesting to see if my numbers are down for the second time in about a couple weeks, i'll keep updating on this thread, just a little scary when they are that extreme, especially when no1 really knows what it actually is, im sure there are more tests that involve the liver specifically, never heard of the AST deal. In college right now but don't do very much drinking/smoking, heading to the health clinic here, hopefully they give blood tests and can produce some results quickly.
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  11. #11
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    Wouldn't it make sense that simply the more you eat the more your body has to produce enzymes to process the food ?
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    Liver enzymes are not the same enzymes as those found in the gut to digest food.

    Liver enzymes usually mean:
    AST
    ALT
    GGT
    ALP

    The first two transaminases (AST/ALT), if elevated, usually relate to liver damage... These are enzymes found IN liver CELLS.... And they should STAY in liver cells regardless of 'amount'. Hence when liver is sick ==>> dying / sick liver cells release these into the blood ==>> increase in levels.

    And, as stated, they can increase for numerous reasons - medications/ supplements, exercise, viruses/infections/inflammatory diseases, drinking, fatty liver (obesity related or for other reasons), + numerous other things too....

    The last two 'liver enzymes' relate more to cholestasis (decreased flow of bile in the liver - often associated with an increase in bilirubin as well). So causes can be things like stones in your gall bladder or bile tree, as well as strictures/ other obstructions. Once again - medications/ supps can do it... as can infection.... and starvation too (which also increases risk of gall stones). ALP can also be raised in other things such as bone disease/ growth.....


    There are also different combinations that increase differently under different situations.... eg: alcohol usually causes an increase in GGT and you also get an increase in transaminases where AST > ALT (remembered due to 'a standard drink' = alcohol)....

    So this is why you need to take the whole 'picture' into consideration when looking at these sorts of things...
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    Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh View Post
    Liver enzymes are not the same enzymes as those found in the gut to digest food.
    True, but some of the enzymes are present in other tissue... Thus, heart disease can also be indicated by some of this enzymes:
    It is raised in acute liver damage. It is also present in red blood cells and cardiac muscle, skeletal muscle, and kidney and brain tissue, and may be elevated due to damage to those sources as well.

    AST was defined as a biochemical marker for the diagnosis of acute myocardial infarction in 1954. However the use of AST for such a diagnosis is now redundant and has been superseded by the cardiac troponins.[1]

    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartate_transaminase

    Originally Posted by BigDaveo11 View Post
    , never heard of the AST deal. In college right now but don't do very much drinking/smoking, heading to the health clinic here, hopefully they give blood tests and can produce some results quickly.

    Something tells me you are confused as to what exactly is testing "high". You need to make sure that your are really talking about liver enzyme function test.

    AST is one of the liver enzymes (see post above from E-L).
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    Oh, ok yah well i don't have the report with me now all i know is that it wasn't good and they were high as in close to 200 both times i got tested, but when i was off the supplements for at least a month or two they were back down to almost normal, which is around 50 i think, again not sure but it was a blood test and they were my liver enzymes, doc just said discontinue supplement use.
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    Found my Numbers...
    Normal for ALT is 0-55...Mine = 126
    Normal for AST is 0-50...Mine = 66

    Here are the results from my first test
    ALT = 201
    AST = 151

    Not saying NO supplements are bad (ie: shotgun/synthesize) but if I were to continue on this, it would result in severe liver damage

    Urea Nitrogen levels
    Normal = 5-26mg/dl
    Mine = 33

    Just trying to warn people, to keep their heads up and be smart, I had no idea about this until my tests.
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  16. #16
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    I also had elevated ALT, AST, urea, and one or 2 other liver issues.

    I stopped taking no-explode, creatine, and 4 weeks later the readings were dramatically improved, although still over the recommendations.

    Will be interesting whetehr i'm "cured" in a month when I get my next test
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    Good to know, thanks for sharing, looking forward to seeing what the results are after a month, same thing happened for me when I got off them, they went down but not all the way back to normal, I just got back on them to see if it really was the supplements instead of just excessive drinking/smoking a few days before test, proved that it definitely was, just looking forward to getting the numbers ALL the way back down.
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    Originally Posted by Sim882 View Post
    I also had elevated ALT, AST, urea, and one or 2 other liver issues.

    I stopped taking no-explode, creatine, and 4 weeks later the readings were dramatically improved, although still over the recommendations.

    Will be interesting whetehr i'm "cured" in a month when I get my next test
    Interesting. Let us know the results of your upcoming test. Since stopping the supplements have you noticed any changes in performance and/or general well-being?
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    Originally Posted by Scott~ View Post
    Interesting. Let us know the results of your upcoming test. Since stopping the supplements have you noticed any changes in performance and/or general well-being?
    Yeah, I had parathesis, and its improved since not taking the supplements.

    IN terms of performance...no losses. Indeed, my squats have increased dramatically.

    So sups = wasted $$$$$$.

    I have however upped my cal intake (adopted a "riskier" calorie surplus than usual, so its possible this has offset the loss of benefit from sups)

    I don't drink alcohol (well very rarely) and before doing weights in 2005, I had liver readings and they were all normal (humurously, I did drink alcohol then).

    So I'm sure its the sups - or perhaps high protein diet
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    Originally Posted by Sim882 View Post
    I also had elevated ALT, AST, urea, and one or 2 other liver issues.

    I stopped taking no-explode, creatine, and 4 weeks later the readings were dramatically improved, although still over the recommendations.

    Will be interesting whetehr i'm "cured" in a month when I get my next test
    What prompted you to get tested? Just curiosity?
    I want to touch the butt.
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  21. #21
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    Originally Posted by Seamless View Post
    What prompted you to get tested? Just curiosity?
    I had chronic pins and needles (Paresthesia). I'm actually going to get an MRI for it this week but its a waste of time it looks like now.

    There were only 2 possible causes - no explode, creatine.

    BUt I'm pretty sure its creatine. I reintroduce a week following cessation of symptons and they then resumed for several days.

    Now they are gone.

    It looks like I can never take creatine again.

    I'm taking citriulline malate now, and so far, no sides.

    I'm also going to aim for health to reduce my protein intake. I just for whatever reason can't help eating a lot meat - normally about 270g per day. The goal is now 200.

    My reason for reducing it is I have to piss at night all the time, and I"m hoping this could be a reason. My kidney functions are completely normal though, and the don't says it couldn't be prostate at my age (although I'm unconvinced and may see a prostrate clinic)
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    Originally Posted by Sim882 View Post
    I had chronic pins and needles (Paresthesia). I'm actually going to get an MRI for it this week but its a waste of time it looks like now.

    There were only 2 possible causes - no explode, creatine.

    BUt I'm pretty sure its creatine. I reintroduce a week following cessation of symptons and they then resumed for several days.

    Now they are gone.

    It looks like I can never take creatine again.

    I'm taking citriulline malate now, and so far, no sides.

    I'm also going to aim for health to reduce my protein intake. I just for whatever reason can't help eating a lot meat - normally about 270g per day. The goal is now 200.

    My reason for reducing it is I have to piss at night all the time, and I"m hoping this could be a reason. My kidney functions are completely normal though, and the don't says it couldn't be prostate at my age (although I'm unconvinced and may see a prostrate clinic)
    Creatine in isolation has not been known to have these effects... but it could be something in the formulations you have been taking...

    Where was the parasthesia?
    Hands? Feet? Across your stomach/ torso?
    Any blistering/ rash?
    Taking anything else (eg: tribulus has been known to have this effect... Mega-extreme-high doses of some of the B vitamins is also known to do it...)?
    Any hx of injury?/ overstretching to area or to neck/ spine?

    With regards to protein -- > at your weight... if you consider a level of ~ 1 x lean weight in pounds (so I would imagine about 130g ish??) you are going to be ok with much less doses... (as long as your total calorie intake is maintained...). In fact most of the research out suggests that ~ 1.2-1.6g per KG weight is enough (read: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...913051&page=2)...

    Good luck with sorting it all out....
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  23. #23
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    Thanks

    The parasthesia was over the ENTIRE body.

    Only the lower back and stomach were spared.

    And put it this way...I discontinued creatine, it improved, and tried it again, it returned, I discontinued, it disappeared.

    I'm not saying this will happen to others, but it happened to me.

    And no, I was not taking anything else. I don't mega dose vitamins either

    Re protein, I know you are probably correct. The problem is more that I LOVE meat, milk, and eggs. And I'm use to only feeling full if I consume lots of meat or eggs.

    So my goal is to gradually reduce protein servings.

    Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh View Post
    Creatine in isolation has not been known to have these effects... but it could be something in the formulations you have been taking...

    Where was the parasthesia?
    Hands? Feet? Across your stomach/ torso?
    Any blistering/ rash?
    Taking anything else (eg: tribulus has been known to have this effect... Mega-extreme-high doses of some of the B vitamins is also known to do it...)?
    Any hx of injury?/ overstretching to area or to neck/ spine?

    With regards to protein -- > at your weight... if you consider a level of ~ 1 x lean weight in pounds (so I would imagine about 130g ish??) you are going to be ok with much less doses... (as long as your total calorie intake is maintained...). In fact most of the research out suggests that ~ 1.2-1.6g per KG weight is enough (read: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...913051&page=2)...

    Good luck with sorting it all out....
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  24. #24
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    I agree with E-L... I find this hard to be attributable to creatine.

    What type of creatine formulation where you taking? (exactly which brand)

    How where you taking it? how much?

    I think that instead of being "grateful", you should be aware (not fearful either, just with eyes open). Because this is not a normal reaction, you should find out what caused it and why. It could be you have some rare allergy to something or that you have some other underlying metabolic problem and this only foreshadows more serious issues down the road.

    Better take care of them now that you are healthy and can deal with them.

    Just my thoughts...
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  25. #25
    Registered User Sim882's Avatar
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    My creatine was unbranded but was from myopure

    The thing is I have lots of health issues. I have new daily persistent headache (a form of chronic daily headache, which leaves me constantly fatigued, dizzy, and of course in pain). I started getting issues when I started taking leucine last year, but they didn't go when I ditched the leucine. The leucine was from bulk nutrients. I have several kilos of it left, but won't allow anyone to touch it lol because I do wonder whether it was contaminated.

    But the pins and needles only went when I ditched the creatine and no-explode.



    Originally Posted by reefpicker View Post
    I agree with E-L... I find this hard to be attributable to creatine.

    What type of creatine formulation where you taking? (exactly which brand)

    How where you taking it? how much?

    I think that instead of being "grateful", you should be aware (not fearful either, just with eyes open). Because this is not a normal reaction, you should find out what caused it and why. It could be you have some rare allergy to something or that you have some other underlying metabolic problem and this only foreshadows more serious issues down the road.

    Better take care of them now that you are healthy and can deal with them.

    Just my thoughts...
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    Of course this is all different from person to person, but I wouldn't call it THAT rare, three people on this thread experienced it, solely from creatine and NO, i was taking solely NO shotgun and NO synthesize, had the same problem, with very severe liver damage, not just a slight rise in numbers, but WAY above normal the doc stated in a letter to my house "if you were to continue at this rate with these numbers it would result in early death" So as stated earlier, discontinued use and numbers went way back down, no prior health problems or mega dosing of vitamins, just don't see what else it could be, it HAS to be the creatine and NO, never took excess amounts, always took the recommended dosage, i like the post earlier about being "aware" but I was "aware" and now must stop the use of any creatine or NO products, forever, which is no big deal, saves me %, did enjoy the pumps but proper nutrition is the most important obviously, everyone else who reads this should make sure they are "aware" as well, get checked it can't hurt, only help.
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    Well Im another that experienced this problem.

    Creatine and a Preworkout supplemnet raise 2 of my kidney levels and 3 liver values. Went off and they came back down. Tried them again to rule out the supplements or not and sure enough, they came back up again.

    So no more creatine for me. Sucks!
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    This makes me think, it could also be interference with the test.

    I will have to look up the info, but it is a possibility.

    Or it could be a transient effect that is harmless.....

    With one exception, it seems most people where symptompless?
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  29. #29
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    My understanding is over 100 for the liver tests is not indicative of a problem. I have seen a few posts of folks having seen over 100 (most likely due to a recent heavy workout).

    My understanding is ranges well, well above 100 are an issue (as I recall the test ranges atleast to one thousand). I would assume your doctor may want to retest you in a few months to see if it has gone up (if at all).

    Why was the liver test ordered in the first place?
    Perchance are you taking statins (or other drug(s) that effect the liver), creatine (or another supplement) or worked out hard within 3days before the liver test? Those would be my first guesses.

    And perchance are you bulking and eating a good deal of calories.
    Last edited by eddiebo; 03-24-2009 at 05:23 PM.
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    Originally Posted by determined4000 View Post
    Over 100 is really high though
    And as I said it has been high every time and gradually getting worse.
    Thanks for the input thouth
    Lulz.

    I've had mine above 3,000 before. It's 100 on a good day now. (not really funny but whatever)

    I'll read the rest of the thread before making suggestions......
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