Theory on beginner gains: gain muscle, lose fat?

[BBHitman]

For the longest time I've heard people say how beginners have this incredible ability to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, while an intermediate to advanced body builder is not as fortunate.

Are there actually any studies that have proved this or does this just go along the results people have claimed they've gotten?

Let me bring up a hypothetical situation to try and ask a question to portray beginner's gains:

We have a male who is 6' and about 200 lbs, somewhere in the range of 25% bf, so a little on the heavy side. On a normal day, this person eats/drink his fair share of soda, fast foods, and all that good stuff. On average, this person burns about 2500 calories/day. This person has minimal experience in the gym.

This person now completely reshapes his diet and workout habits. He does not include cardio in his workout, but he does have a very good weight lifting routine and is now on an extremely healthy diet, consuming 2500 calories per day at about a 40/40/20 p/c/f ratio. Meats are low fat high protein, carbs such as whole grains and brown rice, and healthy fats.

What is going to happen to this person? The new weightlifting routine may help him burn slightly more than the 2500, so will the person slowly lose fat but gain no muscle? What happens if he consumes 3000 calories per day? Beginner theory states that he should be able to lose some fat and gain some muscle. If he ever takes in more than the 2500 calories, how can he possibly lose fat but also gain muscle?

In theory, to me the "beginner theory" doesn't make sense. You must consume more than you burn to get bigger. You must consume less to get smaller. If you consume the same, you'll stay the same. Yet, how could a fat kid ever gain any muscle without becoming a twig first, and then wisely packing on the pounds?

Just curious if anyone could shed some light on this topic...

[Phosphate bond]

In theory, to me the "beginner theory" doesn't make sense. You must consume more than you burn to get bigger. You must consume less to get smaller. If you consume the same, you'll stay the same. Yet, how could a fat kid ever gain any muscle without becoming a twig first, and then wisely packing on the pounds?

Just curious if anyone could shed some light on this topic...

1 pound of adipose has 3500 stored calories in it.

1 pound of skeletal muscle only has 600-750 stored calories in it. (Depending on hydration)

As you can see there is quite a bit of energy that can be transferred from one compartment (adipose) to the other compartment (muscle).

[BBHitman]

So how does the transfer of energy from fat to muscle allow a newbie to lose fat and gain muscle simultaneously?

[flposjg]

i always thought it was about your body getting used to it. I never looked into it that much but what i though it was (probably wrong). You stress your body so hard with the new routine that you start losing fat fast... yet your body is under pressure because your muscles are being used constantly so it needs to build more muscle in order to keep up. I don't really think it's newbie gains i think it has something to do with your BF% cuz this worked for me for a long time until i hit a certain point of BF

[BBHitman]

i always thought it was about your body getting used to it. I never looked into it that much but what i though it was (probably wrong). You stress your body so hard with the new routine that you start losing fat fast... yet your body is under pressure because your muscles are being used constantly so it needs to build more muscle in order to keep up. I don't really think it's newbie gains i think it has something to do with your BF% cuz this worked for me for a long time until i hit a certain point of BF

I can understand why people assume it works, but the breaking weight gain/loss down to it's core, you take more in then you burn you will gain, you take less in then you burn you will lose. I don't see how being a beginner changes that.

Maybe the body doesn't truly run on "daily caloric intake" count. For instance, if you eat heavy around your workout you can use the excess calories to gain muscle, but if you eat less around cardio time you can burn fat.

I'm just looking to see if anyone understands why the whole beginner theory seems to hold true.

[rockevans]

I see that too, but from fat to fit.

[BBHitman]

Thoughts?

[BBHitman]

I'm just pulling these from a thread I just read from here:

congrats on the weight loss

generally, you can't gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. however, when you are getting your "newbie gains," the gains you see when your body first starts adapting to lifting, many people can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. so you may see it happen for you, but it's not going to happen forever.

however, a 1200 calorie deficit per day is a very large defecit. I doubt you're going to see much muscle gain at all with that kind of defecit, I'm pretty sure you're going to lose a significant amount of muscle. If your maintenece is 3200, I wouldn't go any lower than 2500-2700. Losing weight slower helps ensure that you keep as much muscle as possible.

Finally if you've only been lifting a month, give it some time, results aren't going to come over night.

good luck to you

You might get some "newbie" gains, but you CAN NOT gain muscle while in a 1,200 calorie deficit.

You need to EAT MORE calories then your body burns to gain.
You need to EAT LESS calories then your body burns to lose.

Perhaps you should take a peek at this site;
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa64.htm

Back to the "newbie" gains. How does this all work? Can you really gain muscle and lose weight at the same time? If you're super fat is it easier? What about if you're just a little chubby?

and what about this next quesiton? If you're a fatty and your body burns about 3000 calories a day, what happens if you eat a **** diet consisting of 2500 calories vs. a healthy diet with proper macro breakdowns consisting of 2500 calories? Besides overall health, how will weight loss differ?

[gixxer0.6g]

I'm not sure but I do know that when I do a slow cut and keep my protein high while in a calorie deficit, I do gain a little muscle as well. Granted the muscle growth is much faster on a bulk but there are some small gains while cutting.

[BBHitman]

I'm beginning to think there is no such thing as beginner gains. When you lose fat, the muscle you're seeing is just muscle that was there but covered by fat.

So unfortunately, if you're a fatty and want to gain muscle, you're going to have to lose the fat and be a skinny boy and then do the bulk.

For instance, many people know of johnstonefitness.com. The guy went from chubby guy to being skinny and ripped and from there has had many bulking/cutting phases to get to where he is now.

[RandallH19891]

I'm beginning to think there is no such thing as beginner gains. When you lose fat, the muscle you're seeing is just muscle that was there but covered by fat.

Same thing I am thinking. You gotta remember all people have some sort of natural muscle on them whether it's more or less than others.

[qdiddy69]

1 pound of adipose has 3500 stored calories in it.

1 pound of skeletal muscle only has 600-750 stored calories in it. (Depending on hydration)

As you can see there is quite a bit of energy that can be transferred from one compartment (adipose) to the other compartment (muscle).

wow your like the first person on this section to actually realise this point

[qdiddy69]

dude any1 can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, its just really hard for advance lifters.
Any advanced lifter that changes his routine and lifts in a different way will have better gains then if he kept his same routine, it sort of "shocks" the system. So your body adapts to this shock by growing, but the more you give your body the stimuli the less it works.IE why a program works so well for people new to it and not so well to poeple who have been doing it.

This means that a new person who is just getting into the weights can gain muscle even if hes at a calorie deficit because hes body reacts alot to the stimuli that it's not used to (newbs prolly havent got a good workout in years)

[BBHitman]

dude any1 can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, its just really hard for advance lifters.
Any advanced lifter that changes his routine and lifts in a different way will have better gains then if he kept his same routine, it sort of "shocks" the system. So your body adapts to this shock by growing, but the more you give your body the stimuli the less it works.IE why a program works so well for people new to it and not so well to poeple who have been doing it.

This means that a new person who is just getting into the weights can gain muscle even if hes at a calorie deficit because hes body reacts alot to the stimuli that it's not used to (newbs prolly havent got a good workout in years)

If this holds true, wouldn't optimal training for a newbie then be on a calorie deficit. In effect, this would allow a new weight lifter to be able to shed the excess weight and gain some muscle, probably maintaining body weight but transforming body composition.

And just for clarification, is a newbie someone who hasn't lifted in three years, or are the same benefits applied to someone who hasn't lifted in three months, just to a lesser degree?

[Phosphate bond]

and what about this next quesiton? If you're a fatty and your body burns about 3000 calories a day, what happens if you eat a **** diet consisting of 2500 calories vs. a healthy diet with proper macro breakdowns consisting of 2500 calories? Besides overall health, how will weight loss differ?

Basically this is just a simple math question and you have already concluded that diet quality doesn't matter (by stating the deficit ahead of time)

Okay, but then what about someone training and maxed out on this crap diet you are alluding to? Could improving micronutrients and/or anti-oxidants remove any "bottlenecks" so the maximum amount of sustainable daily work could be higher?

So how does the transfer of energy from fat to muscle allow a newbie to lose fat and gain muscle simultaneously?

As long as the amount of fat available from adipose is more than the muscle needs for growth and repair purposes the process can work. In fact, excess free fatty acids will be re-esterified back into TAG (for storage) if a surplus of them were released.

[BBHitman]

As long as the amount of fat available from adipose is more than the muscle needs for growth and repair purposes the process can work. In fact, excess free fatty acids will be re-esterified back into TAG (for storage) if a surplus of them were released.

I'm still not quite understanding this part right here. What process are you saying can work? The process of losing fat and gaining muscle?

So are you saying that you can lose fat and gain muscle by having your body use energy from fat in order to build up your muscle?

So wouldn't an optimal diet for a fatty be something close to 100% protein? Then the body can use the fat to give energy to the protein the person has taken in to build up the muscle.

[conwaylucas]

yes you can gain muscle and lose fat at same time on caloric deficit. I did it and now am finally to the point to where I cant anymore.

and you may ask how did you know you gained muscle? well I could see new muscles poping up like the little ball like muscle on the side of your foot... never had it before ( i know i had it but it was not noticeable ) but after awhile it got built it to where I can flex it now. My feet were never fat either so it wasn't the loss of fat that revealed that little muscle....

You all can say whatever but I did what you say is impossible.

I cannot seem to do it any longer though so I am having to educate myself on proper calories for muscle gain. Interesting enough I weighed myself this morning after my first real chest workout in years yesterday and it appears as if I had gained 1.5 pounds of weight in that one day.

Both times I weighed as soon as I got up from 8 hours of sleep. Could I be still experiencing newbie gains? Time will tell as I watch my weight and track my bf%

[Paumen]

I'm still not quite understanding this part right here. What process are you saying can work? The process of losing fat and gaining muscle?

So are you saying that you can lose fat and gain muscle by having your body use energy from fat in order to build up your muscle?

So wouldn't an optimal diet for a fatty be something close to 100% protein? Then the body can use the fat to give energy to the protein the person has taken in to build up the muscle.

The fats and carbs spare the protein so it can be used to repair muscles tissue, grow hair, grow nails etc. If you only ate protein the body would convert it to glucose and use it as fuel as well. Either way, newbie gains are just a given always because most people start off with "office arms". just my 03 centz

[Phosphate bond]

So are you saying that you can lose fat and gain muscle by having your body use energy from fat in order to build up your muscle?

So wouldn't an optimal diet for a fatty be something close to 100% protein? Then the body can use the fat to give energy to the protein the person has taken in to build up the muscle.

Alan Aragon and Layne Norton are the best guys to ask regarding combining dietary interventions and weight lifting routines. In fact, I think these studies are more interesting than the ones involving non-exercising populations.

[THE_TRUTH86]

i lost my fats and gained my muscle back.. it was hard work. What is a good method

[BBHitman]

Alan Aragon and Layne Norton are the best guys to ask regarding combining dietary interventions and weight lifting routines. In fact, I think these studies are more interesting than the ones involving non-exercising populations.

Any studies linked somewhere on these boards?

[Black_Spit]

I can understand why people assume it works, but the breaking weight gain/loss down to it's core, you take more in then you burn you will gain, you take less in then you burn you will lose. I don't see how being a beginner changes that.

Maybe the body doesn't truly run on "daily caloric intake" count. For instance, if you eat heavy around your workout you can use the excess calories to gain muscle, but if you eat less around cardio time you can burn fat.

I'm just looking to see if anyone understands why the whole beginner theory seems to hold true.

The bolded part is where you're almost getting there.

People look at things so obtusely in a 24 hour period, or a 7 day period, etc... Why not in 3 hour increments? Why not take workouts and workout nutrition into account?

I've seen too many people lose fat and build muscle to constantly discredit it like people try to do so often. And, I would agree with anyone who says that being a beginner lends itself to this happening much more effeciently.

[BBHitman]

The bolded part is where you're almost getting there.

People look at things so obtusely in a 24 hour period, or a 7 day period, etc... Why not in 3 hour increments? Why not take workouts and workout nutrition into account?

I've seen too many people lose fat and build muscle to constantly discredit it like people try to do so often. And, I would agree with anyone who says that being a beginner lends itself to this happening much more effeciently.

But one of the fundamental questions of life.....how? If everyone is so sure there are beginner gains, how do they happen? If overall you can't lose fat and add muscle, what makes a beginner able to?

[Black_Spit]

But one of the fundamental questions of life.....how? If everyone is so sure there are beginner gains, how do they happen? If overall you can't lose fat and add muscle, what makes a beginner able to?

I already said it.

You may not be able to do them at the very same time... but, you're looking at things in a very linear fashion. Like I said, look at things on a smaller scale, and it becomes easier. 23 hours our of the day, below maintenance with 1.5g protein per lb of bodyweight, but immediately post workout how many people take in more calories and carbs than they would any other meal? Why do they do that?

Or, how about the Anabolic Diet? Two distinct phases to every week.

So, the answer to why? Because our bodies don't have a stopwatch that beeps when 24 hours is up to let us know that day 1 has passed and you ate below or above maintenance that day.

I'm having a hard time explaining this the way I wanted to. It makes much better sense in my head, but, I just ate a refeed carb meal and I'm sweating balls and groggy.

[Phosphate bond]

But one of the fundamental questions of life.....how? If everyone is so sure there are beginner gains, how do they happen? If overall you can't lose fat and add muscle, what makes a beginner able to?

If the fuel from both adipose and food is sufficient (assuming training was sufficiently stimulating) the calories necessary to store energy as muscle shouldn't be a problem. (Actually really obese people already have almost double the number of fasting free fatty acids in the bloodstream so achieving necessary supply with them is the easiest)

For example, 3800 calories are expended, 3700 calories are taken in and 200 calories are released from adipose. That is a total body deficit but a 100 calorie surplus at muscle. If any of those surplus fatty acids couldn't be burned by muscle they would just end up being re-esterified back to TAG.

In the beginning adipose is plentiful and even the cAMP responsiveness (from alpha 2/beta receptor ratio) can be altered by aerobic training. Over time this becomes harder and harder to improve though. Same with muscle, it can only get so big before other factors in the body (that affect it) become rate limiting.

Probably your best bet at increasing muscle lies in diet and training (which Alan and Layne are both good at). At the moment I am not sure how far nutrition beyond macros has been investigated with respect to this?

It could be things like micronutrients and anti-oxidants may have long term effects that haven't been measured yet? (assuming equivalent fiber and caloric density) . Regardless it seems pushing a human body pretty hard with weights for a long time would be more difficult without good endogenous and exogenous anti-oxidant recycling.

The irony is that even beyond simple "wear and tear" issues anti-oxidants like Glutathione can even affect the strength of Prostanglandins released (according to some monkey studies using epinephrine.) Some other ideas even suggest that the type of Prostaglandins released by muscle contractions can affect protein synthesis.

[lawrence88]

Hmm thanks for the awesome responses been wondering this.

[reefpicker]

OP,

I think that you are asking the wrong crowd, since most of us can't really know for sure.

However, I will give you MY perspective.

First, what are newbie gains? If by gains you mean LIFT gains, then that is a different story.

If you mean muscle gain, I will ask you a tough question: has this even been shown or is this just anecdotal evidence?

Let's assume that it is true, which I suspect it may be.

The human body is not a computer system with inputs and outputs and discrete algorithms... No sir... No no... So... it is more complex than that.

You will have to consider that for a "newbie", his insulin receptors might not be at the same level as yours. That perhaps there is a non-linear relationship between the rate of synthesis of new muscle and caloric consumption, etc. Just to name a few.

Whatever high-school level answer we can conjure up here, I am sure the real-world answer is much more complex.

But here is mine... I think you "shock" the system when you start, and the body burns fat. Thats why you have higher LBM, not because the body is synthesizing protein faster, but because it is burning fat faster. Once it gets "used" to exercising regularly, it starts to preserve fat again, and you get stuck for a while...

[Gator87]

But one of the fundamental questions of life.....how? If everyone is so sure there are beginner gains, how do they happen? If overall you can't lose fat and add muscle, what makes a beginner able to?

Diminishing returns. Similar to the way it is easier for a car to accelerate from 10-20 mph vs 90-100mph.
The beginner has ALOT of room to grow and very little muscle to maintain, so his body will adapt to the workload at a faster pace than someone more experienced. Also, people who have been lifting for a while also usually know how to eat properly and have already built up their large muscle groups with squats and deadlifts which increase testosterone. They have already used up all the shortcuts. Obviously a beginner has done none of this, so he can benefit from it a lot.

[BBHitman]

If the fuel from both adipose and food is sufficient (assuming training was sufficiently stimulating) the calories necessary to store energy as muscle shouldn't be a problem. (Actually really obese people already have almost double the number of fasting free fatty acids in the bloodstream so achieving necessary supply with them is the easiest)

For example, 3800 calories are expended, 3700 calories are taken in and 200 calories are released from adipose. That is a total body deficit but a 100 calorie surplus at muscle. If any of those surplus fatty acids couldn't be burned by muscle they would just end up being re-esterified back to TAG.

In the beginning adipose is plentiful and even the cAMP responsiveness (from alpha 2/beta receptor ratio) can be altered by aerobic training. Over time this becomes harder and harder to improve though. Same with muscle, it can only get so big before other factors in the body (that affect it) become rate limiting.

Probably your best bet at increasing muscle lies in diet and training (which Alan and Layne are both good at). At the moment I am not sure how far nutrition beyond macros has been investigated with respect to this?

It could be things like micronutrients and anti-oxidants may have long term effects that haven't been measured yet? (assuming equivalent fiber and caloric density) . Regardless it seems pushing a human body pretty hard with weights for a long time would be more difficult without good endogenous and exogenous anti-oxidant recycling.

The irony is that even beyond simple "wear and tear" issues anti-oxidants like Glutathione can even affect the strength of Prostanglandins released (according to some monkey studies using epinephrine.) Some other ideas even suggest that the type of Prostaglandins released by muscle contractions can affect protein synthesis.

I guess it is a very complicated process, far beyond the basic principles that I understand about fitness and nutrition. Due to it happening over and over again, I guess at this point I'll just believe it and hopefully one day have a better understanding of why.

[bill112]

I guess it is a very complicated process, far beyond the basic principles that I understand about fitness and nutrition. Due to it happening over and over again, I guess at this point I'll just believe it and hopefully one day have a better understanding of why.

i lost fat and gain muscle too when i eat workout also