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  1. #1
    The Merciful alan aragon's Avatar
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    Unconventional Dietary Approaches

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  2. #2
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    Good thread, maybe my diet fits the description:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...1&postcount=33
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  3. #3
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  4. #4
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    My transformation log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=115239961

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  5. #5
    Registered User jvaughan08's Avatar
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    I cant approve of ketogenic diets, i mean i might be missing something, but this type of diet seems of healthy. when your body is in a state of ketosis the ph in your blood is unbalanced, your blood is literally acidic, how can that be healthy? ya you lose weight and but if your unhealthy or dead it does not matter. I know people have used it to great success, and maybe i have not properly done my research but it seems like the benefits do not outweigh the potential health concerns associated with this diet.
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  6. #6
    Registered User FAHall's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jvaughan08 View Post
    I cant approve of ketogenic diets, i mean i might be missing something, but this type of diet seems of healthy. when your body is in a state of ketosis the ph in your blood is unbalanced, your blood is literally acidic, how can that be healthy? ya you lose weight and but if your unhealthy or dead it does not matter. I know people have used it to great success, and maybe i have not properly done my research but it seems like the benefits do not outweigh the potential health concerns associated with this diet.
    You should check your facts again.

    What you're talking about is Keto Acidosis, which, as you stated, is not something we want. It is something that happens to some diabetics.

    Ketosis is NOT Keto-acidosis.


    This is a common misconception, and the reason that so many people think that ketogenic diets are dangerous. If we were all walking around in keto acidosis, yeah that would be bad... but ketosis is different.
    Alexander Hall
    Owner/Personal Trainer/Nutritional Consultant

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    www.vaultstrength.com

    Alex@vaultstrength.com
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  7. #7
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    Sweet!
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  8. #8
    Registered User NastyNateTheGr8's Avatar
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    How is this for unconventional?



    What Im basically doing - which Im not sure is going to work - is lifting 5 days (some consecutively, some not) in an 8 day cycle with 3 days of cardio interspersed. Here is the kicker: Im eating a 40/30/30 macronutrient profile on lifting days with a 200-300 calorie surplus and a 500-700 calorie deficit with no carbs on cardio days. Im basically trying to grow one day and cut the next rather than go through long bulk and cut cycles.

    What I would really like to know is if 1 day of keto (no carb) dieting & cardio between 2 days of lifting and caloric surplus @ 40/30/30 is even going to work. Is the goal of keto to hit the so-called metabolic switch and if so, will the body even switch in a single day of keto or will I just end up putting on fat on the isolated keto days by eating bacon, whole eggs, etc., even in the absence of carbs?

    Another thing Im concerned aboutis that by going into a caloric deficit a day after heavy lifting, I will be negating the repair process. My legs are typically sore for 4 or 5 days after training them. Am I doing them a disservice by cutting carbs to almost nothing (save for 12-16 oz green vegetables daily), cutting calories (-500 from maintainence) and protein (from 1.5g per lb of bw to 1g per lb of bw) on the no carb, keto-diet days? I did some reading on keto diets and am under the impression that protein demands aren't as high during such phases and that catabolization isn't as much of a concern either, since or especially if you're not doing anaerobic activity. However, there is the 'overlap', for lack of a better word.. the overlap from days of intense anaerobic activity from the days of 40/30/30 caloric surplus.

    Below is the program. I started the Monday before last and am not sure if I appear any softer yet. I'll take ab pics sometime soon to gauge my progress. I'm about the same weight (as anticipated) when I started but I suspect my body might be trading fat for muscle. I do appear a bit softer or at least not as pumped. Perhaps my muscles just aren't overly saturated with water and other (macro?)nutrients they would be otherwise. I feel compelled to stick with it for another couple weeks until I know for sure my body composition is taking a turn for the worst.

    Here is the program as follows. I'd like to know what people think. Is it an approach that is not in keeping with documented nutritional research?

    Monday:
    Lift weights (chest), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile.

    Tuesday:
    Lift weights (shoulders, tris), caloric surplus of 200 @roughly 40/30/30 mac profile.

    Wednesday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, 1 g protein per lb of bw)

    Thursday:
    Lift (Legs), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Friday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, 1 g of protein per lb of bw

    Saturday:
    Lift (Back), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Sunday:
    Lift (Biceps, Calves), caloric surplus of 200 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Monday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, l g of protein per lb of bw

    Tuesday:
    Restart Cycle

    Add up the surplus total and deficit total and its damn close to a wash, since I am trying to stay in the 180-190 range from now on (I just want to get progressively leaner). The goal is to be anabolic for a day or two, then ketogenic for a day or 2. Does it make any sense? Does anybody have any projections about what is going to happen if I stay on this program for the next 10 weeks or so? Thanks in advance.
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  9. #9
    Registered User gse123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NastyNateTheGr8 View Post
    How is this for unconventional?



    What Im basically doing - which Im not sure is going to work - is lifting 5 days (some consecutively, some not) in an 8 day cycle with 3 days of cardio interspersed. Here is the kicker: Im eating a 40/30/30 macronutrient profile on lifting days with a 200-300 calorie surplus and a 500-700 calorie deficit with no carbs on cardio days. Im basically trying to grow one day and cut the next rather than go through long bulk and cut cycles.

    What I would really like to know is if 1 day of keto (no carb) dieting & cardio between 2 days of lifting and caloric surplus @ 40/30/30 is even going to work. Is the goal of keto to hit the so-called metabolic switch and if so, will the body even switch in a single day of keto or will I just end up putting on fat on the isolated keto days by eating bacon, whole eggs, etc., even in the absence of carbs?

    Another thing Im concerned aboutis that by going into a caloric deficit a day after heavy lifting, I will be negating the repair process. My legs are typically sore for 4 or 5 days after training them. Am I doing them a disservice by cutting carbs to almost nothing (save for 12-16 oz green vegetables daily), cutting calories (-500 from maintainence) and protein (from 1.5g per lb of bw to 1g per lb of bw) on the no carb, keto-diet days? I did some reading on keto diets and am under the impression that protein demands aren't as high during such phases and that catabolization isn't as much of a concern either, since or especially if you're not doing anaerobic activity. However, there is the 'overlap', for lack of a better word.. the overlap from days of intense anaerobic activity from the days of 40/30/30 caloric surplus.

    Below is the program. I started the Monday before last and am not sure if I appear any softer yet. I'll take ab pics sometime soon to gauge my progress. I'm about the same weight (as anticipated) when I started but I suspect my body might be trading fat for muscle. I do appear a bit softer or at least not as pumped. Perhaps my muscles just aren't overly saturated with water and other (macro?)nutrients they would be otherwise. I feel compelled to stick with it for another couple weeks until I know for sure my body composition is taking a turn for the worst.

    Here is the program as follows. I'd like to know what people think. Is it an approach that is not in keeping with documented nutritional research?

    Monday:
    Lift weights (chest), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile.

    Tuesday:
    Lift weights (shoulders, tris), caloric surplus of 200 @roughly 40/30/30 mac profile.

    Wednesday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, 1 g protein per lb of bw)

    Thursday:
    Lift (Legs), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Friday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, 1 g of protein per lb of bw

    Saturday:
    Lift (Back), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Sunday:
    Lift (Biceps, Calves), caloric surplus of 200 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Monday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, l g of protein per lb of bw

    Tuesday:
    Restart Cycle

    Add up the surplus total and deficit total and its damn close to a wash, since I am trying to stay in the 180-190 range from now on (I just want to get progressively leaner). The goal is to be anabolic for a day or two, then ketogenic for a day or 2. Does it make any sense? Does anybody have any projections about what is going to happen if I stay on this program for the next 10 weeks or so? Thanks in advance.
    I'm just starting a similar method, of surplus cals on training days, and low carb, defecit on non training days. In theory, you will re-comp but proress will be very slow compared to cutting then bulking, but I personally am in no rush now and am very interested to see if it works.
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  10. #10
    Registered User murphtom's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NastyNateTheGr8 View Post
    How is this for unconventional?



    What Im basically doing - which Im not sure is going to work - is lifting 5 days (some consecutively, some not) in an 8 day cycle with 3 days of cardio interspersed. Here is the kicker: Im eating a 40/30/30 macronutrient profile on lifting days with a 200-300 calorie surplus and a 500-700 calorie deficit with no carbs on cardio days. Im basically trying to grow one day and cut the next rather than go through long bulk and cut cycles.

    What I would really like to know is if 1 day of keto (no carb) dieting & cardio between 2 days of lifting and caloric surplus @ 40/30/30 is even going to work. Is the goal of keto to hit the so-called metabolic switch and if so, will the body even switch in a single day of keto or will I just end up putting on fat on the isolated keto days by eating bacon, whole eggs, etc., even in the absence of carbs?

    Another thing Im concerned aboutis that by going into a caloric deficit a day after heavy lifting, I will be negating the repair process. My legs are typically sore for 4 or 5 days after training them. Am I doing them a disservice by cutting carbs to almost nothing (save for 12-16 oz green vegetables daily), cutting calories (-500 from maintainence) and protein (from 1.5g per lb of bw to 1g per lb of bw) on the no carb, keto-diet days? I did some reading on keto diets and am under the impression that protein demands aren't as high during such phases and that catabolization isn't as much of a concern either, since or especially if you're not doing anaerobic activity. However, there is the 'overlap', for lack of a better word.. the overlap from days of intense anaerobic activity from the days of 40/30/30 caloric surplus.

    Below is the program. I started the Monday before last and am not sure if I appear any softer yet. I'll take ab pics sometime soon to gauge my progress. I'm about the same weight (as anticipated) when I started but I suspect my body might be trading fat for muscle. I do appear a bit softer or at least not as pumped. Perhaps my muscles just aren't overly saturated with water and other (macro?)nutrients they would be otherwise. I feel compelled to stick with it for another couple weeks until I know for sure my body composition is taking a turn for the worst.

    Here is the program as follows. I'd like to know what people think. Is it an approach that is not in keeping with documented nutritional research?

    Monday:
    Lift weights (chest), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile.

    Tuesday:
    Lift weights (shoulders, tris), caloric surplus of 200 @roughly 40/30/30 mac profile.

    Wednesday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, 1 g protein per lb of bw)

    Thursday:
    Lift (Legs), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Friday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, 1 g of protein per lb of bw

    Saturday:
    Lift (Back), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Sunday:
    Lift (Biceps, Calves), caloric surplus of 200 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Monday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, l g of protein per lb of bw

    Tuesday:
    Restart Cycle

    Add up the surplus total and deficit total and its damn close to a wash, since I am trying to stay in the 180-190 range from now on (I just want to get progressively leaner). The goal is to be anabolic for a day or two, then ketogenic for a day or 2. Does it make any sense? Does anybody have any projections about what is going to happen if I stay on this program for the next 10 weeks or so? Thanks in advance.

    I'm actually trialling something very similar, but also only having carbs pre/post weights. Plus i do full body 3 times per week (weights evening, small ss cardio morning fasted except double protein scoop), 4 days dedicated HIIT cardio. I have had great success with carb cycling, now doing calorie cycling as well but as i say keeping carbs around weights only. Also overeating in 6 hour period post weights.
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  11. #11
    Registered User murthy360's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FAHall View Post
    You should check your facts again.

    What you're talking about is Keto Acidosis, which, as you stated, is not something we want. It is something that happens to some diabetics.

    Ketosis is NOT Keto-acidosis.


    This is a common misconception, and the reason that so many people think that ketogenic diets are dangerous. If we were all walking around in keto acidosis, yeah that would be bad... but ketosis is different.
    thnkas man...........
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  12. #12
    Registered User TDE's Avatar
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    good thread...
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  13. #13
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    great thread!
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  14. #14
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    Originally Posted by Louie55 View Post
    oh and i forgot to mention. Eat 6 meals a day and eat atleast 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight per day. This will have maintain a healthy nitrogen balance in your body.
    Another bro-sific fact from another bro-scientist! [facepalm]
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  15. #15
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    yea you're right

    Originally Posted by roshant View Post
    indeed
    hahahaha good one!
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  16. #16
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    Great thread!

    Just when I think I know it all I find out I'm wrong J/K

    No seriously it's amazing that no matter how far I am in my weight training and nutrition there is always more to learn, it's a journey that will never end. Thank You!!!!
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  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by NastyNateTheGr8 View Post
    How is this for unconventional?



    What Im basically doing - which Im not sure is going to work - is lifting 5 days (some consecutively, some not) in an 8 day cycle with 3 days of cardio interspersed. Here is the kicker: Im eating a 40/30/30 macronutrient profile on lifting days with a 200-300 calorie surplus and a 500-700 calorie deficit with no carbs on cardio days. Im basically trying to grow one day and cut the next rather than go through long bulk and cut cycles.

    What I would really like to know is if 1 day of keto (no carb) dieting & cardio between 2 days of lifting and caloric surplus @ 40/30/30 is even going to work. Is the goal of keto to hit the so-called metabolic switch and if so, will the body even switch in a single day of keto or will I just end up putting on fat on the isolated keto days by eating bacon, whole eggs, etc., even in the absence of carbs?

    Another thing Im concerned aboutis that by going into a caloric deficit a day after heavy lifting, I will be negating the repair process. My legs are typically sore for 4 or 5 days after training them. Am I doing them a disservice by cutting carbs to almost nothing (save for 12-16 oz green vegetables daily), cutting calories (-500 from maintainence) and protein (from 1.5g per lb of bw to 1g per lb of bw) on the no carb, keto-diet days? I did some reading on keto diets and am under the impression that protein demands aren't as high during such phases and that catabolization isn't as much of a concern either, since or especially if you're not doing anaerobic activity. However, there is the 'overlap', for lack of a better word.. the overlap from days of intense anaerobic activity from the days of 40/30/30 caloric surplus.

    Below is the program. I started the Monday before last and am not sure if I appear any softer yet. I'll take ab pics sometime soon to gauge my progress. I'm about the same weight (as anticipated) when I started but I suspect my body might be trading fat for muscle. I do appear a bit softer or at least not as pumped. Perhaps my muscles just aren't overly saturated with water and other (macro?)nutrients they would be otherwise. I feel compelled to stick with it for another couple weeks until I know for sure my body composition is taking a turn for the worst.

    Here is the program as follows. I'd like to know what people think. Is it an approach that is not in keeping with documented nutritional research?

    Monday:
    Lift weights (chest), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile.

    Tuesday:
    Lift weights (shoulders, tris), caloric surplus of 200 @roughly 40/30/30 mac profile.

    Wednesday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, 1 g protein per lb of bw)

    Thursday:
    Lift (Legs), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Friday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, 1 g of protein per lb of bw

    Saturday:
    Lift (Back), caloric surplus of 300 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Sunday:
    Lift (Biceps, Calves), caloric surplus of 200 @ roughly 40/30/30 mac profile

    Monday:
    Cardio, caloric deficit of 500 with oft suggested keto profile of -60g carbs, l g of protein per lb of bw

    Tuesday:
    Restart Cycle

    Add up the surplus total and deficit total and its damn close to a wash, since I am trying to stay in the 180-190 range from now on (I just want to get progressively leaner). The goal is to be anabolic for a day or two, then ketogenic for a day or 2. Does it make any sense? Does anybody have any projections about what is going to happen if I stay on this program for the next 10 weeks or so? Thanks in advance.
    I'd like to get opinions on this from more knowledgeable people. It seems interesting and would definitely like it to work but something tells me it doesn't and slows down the progress...
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    Originally Posted by ristouuk View Post
    I'd like to get opinions on this from more knowledgeable people. It seems interesting and would definitely like it to work but something tells me it doesn't and slows down the progress...
    I'm not 100% sure and I think someone with a lot more knowledge will correct me if I am wrong. But you cannot cut and bulk at the same time. To me it sounds like an oxymoron! I was taught you can do a bulking cycle first, which can last anywhere from 3 months to a year, and then you can do a cutting cycle. Also working out 7 days a week is not a good idea. You need rest so your body can heal itself and grow.
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    Originally Posted by fitmom43 View Post
    I'm not 100% sure and I think someone with a lot more knowledge will correct me if I am wrong. But you cannot cut and bulk at the same time. To me it sounds like an oxymoron! I was taught you can do a bulking cycle first, which can last anywhere from 3 months to a year, and then you can do a cutting cycle. Also working out 7 days a week is not a good idea. You need rest so your body can heal itself and grow.
    You can under certain conditions. It's hard but not impossible. Basically beginning lifters and people who are just getting back into the gym after a long break. Their body can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. But for advanced lifters, it's extremely impractical.
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    Unconventional to the extreme

    Originally Posted by fitmom43 View Post
    I'm not 100% sure and I think someone with a lot more knowledge will correct me if I am wrong. But you cannot cut and bulk at the same time. To me it sounds like an oxymoron! I was taught you can do a bulking cycle first, which can last anywhere from 3 months to a year, and then you can do a cutting cycle. Also working out 7 days a week is not a good idea. You need rest so your body can heal itself and grow.
    It's actually possible. I've done it before, working out every day from may until august with only three days off cause I had a tournament those days so it really wasn't even a break. My diet consisted of only grapefruits, bananas, almonds, vegetables, chicken, salmon, and rarely pork and brown rice. Also protein shakes and m5 by cellucor. I didn't have many carbs and ended up losing 26.4 lbs of fat and gaining 12.7 lbs of muscle while doubling my strength in every lift. I'd workout upperbody one day and lower body the next 7 days a week. I'd also do HIIT cardio atleast 4 times a week and weight train 2 to 4 times a day. I had about 4g of protein/lb of bw. I guess the extra protein and fruit took the place of the breads and other carbs in my diet. Fruit does have carbs in it though so that could have helped too. I also only ate natural foods that were organic and only free range, wild caught and grass fed meat/poultry/fish. My diet and workout plan went 100% against traditional knowledge but somehow I got incredible results. I'm not sure how but it worked. And days I would workout 4 times that would be atleast an hour each and days I would only workout twice it would be for atleast two hours each. All this being said I had to also cut weight for fights thhree times during those months which also should have taken a toll on my muscles and recovery. No fat burners, and no steroids were involved. Just organic produce, protein, hard work, more protein, more protein, and a lot more hard work. That being said I'm also 16 so puberty, gh, and testosterone most likely played a huge role in all that.
    Last edited by bstoehrball7; 02-28-2011 at 08:25 PM. Reason: Wasn't done yet and accidentally posted
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    Originally Posted by ristouuk View Post
    I'd like to get opinions on this from more knowledgeable people. It seems interesting and would definitely like it to work but something tells me it doesn't and slows down the progress...
    It sounds like carb cycling, something similar to what I am doing now.
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    Originally Posted by wowbob396 View Post
    It sounds like carb cycling, something similar to what I am doing now.
    Dude.. your 15.. I really respect that you have an interest in this stuff, but your way too young to be incorporating techniques like carb-cycling. Go eat a balanced, nutritional diet without worrying about all the technicalities.. you'll thank me for it when you're older.

    That aside, my personal opinion, is that I don't go for the whole 'bulk' and 'cut' approach. I don't see the need to put on 20kg of muscle + fat to then cut 10-15kg of fat. As long as you're getting your Protein, your body is still going to repair your muscle fibers even if you're in a calorie deficit. I've been under calories for over a year (granted with a controlled re-feed once a week ands this is usually only at maintenance or say 100-200 calories over) training 6-7 times a week. and have seen great results. Strength has greatly increased and bf% has gone down a lot. The mist interesting thing is actual body weight went down a lot to start then stabilised, and oscilates now within a 2-3kg interval, but within a continual downwardn trend. However, my main aim is to get my bf% lower, so to this end, it has been effective, if you're already at your bf goal then I wouldn't reccomend this approach.
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    good about health you can find also here
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    no grains & no sugar
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