Creatine Hydrochloride - Need pro advice, cannot find other posts

[warrior504th]

I have searched google, and the two supplement boards here for something on Creatine Hydrochloride. I really hate asking questions as you pro's have covered almost everything conceivable already here... but here goes, as I cannot find it!

Creatine Hydrochloride: In the form of GNC's Amped 189 (pill) I heard that there are digestion issues with some people... I dont seem to be having this issue, so other than that, is there something that makes it ACTUALLY more/less effective than straight mono? I would prefer not to be bloated, but I want end-results and would take the bloating of monohydrate if hydrochloride is a big waste.

I have already opened and begun taking the hydrochloride. I am 'loading' at only 12.5g by the recommendations on the label stating that it absorbs twice as effectively; you cant believe labels these days, so I figured I'd ask the pros on that as well.

More or less: is Hydrochloride less effective? is there anything I should watch out for other than digestive issues? Is there something special I must avoid lest it destroy the effect of hydrochloride?

[warrior504th]

bump.

anyone know anything about hydrochloride? I'm dyin' for some solid info here.

[warrior504th]

I found one link where they say the acid in creatine hydrochloride destroys the creatine and makes it a waste. someone way later in it said something about chloride leading to impotence.... doubt this is true though.

Anyone, anything??

[lastlieutenant]

Just wanted to say that I've purchased it myself. I'm guessing that your taking the GNC Amplified Creatine 189? I think it might be the only product on the market right now with Creatine HCL.

From what I've read, the reviews are great, and I'm in my second week of using it.

My first cycle of creatine I used CellTech Hardcore and put on about 8-10 pounds in a month and a half. Solid lean muscle. No increase in body fat.

The second cycle of creatine I'm doing started last Saturday, so I'm on day 10 of this GNC Amplified Creatine 189. I've noticed a 5 pound increase in 10 days, and more stamina in my workouts. I'm guessing I can put on more weight and strength though, because I wasn't using a protein supplement for those 10 days, and I was not getting the amount of water required. Not even close.

I'm gonna write a body blog entry about my experience with GNC Amplified Creatine 189 when I get through the bottle, which should be in about a month.

If your already taking it, I read that breaking the pills in half helps absorption, and that you should be drinking about 1.5-2 gallons of water per day. 1 gallon just because your lifting pretty heavy, and another gallon b/c of the creatine your taking.

Just my 2 cents.

[krager54]

Yeah I had great results with 189. I didn't have problems digesting it either, but I chewed them up just to be safe. Within a week of my first cycle, I saw noticeable gains in strength, stamina, and energy. My max rep bench of 205lbs went from 6 to 10 after about a week and a half. I'm actually thinking about stacking it with Kre-Alkalyn EFX that I just bought.

The only info I've gotten on it is what's on the package. You know, like 400% more efficient and all that...

[warrior504th]

Isn't Creatine Hydrochloride ACTUALLY Creatine Ethyl Ester Hydrochloride?

Creatine, with an ester attached, held together by hydrochloric acid and thus in a salt-like form...?

If not, it sounds like creatine bound to hydrochloric acid, and if I recall what I recently have read, hydrochloric acid is used to keep pills solid and is not absorbed... if your creatine is bound to it, wouldn't that defeat the purpose?

[theone787]

Just wanted to say that I've purchased it myself. I'm guessing that your taking the GNC Amplified Creatine 189? I think it might be the only product on the market right now with Creatine HCL.

From what I've read, the reviews are great, and I'm in my second week of using it.

My first cycle of creatine I used CellTech Hardcore and put on about 8-10 pounds in a month and a half. Solid lean muscle. No increase in body fat.

The second cycle of creatine I'm doing started last Saturday, so I'm on day 10 of this GNC Amplified Creatine 189. I've noticed a 5 pound increase in 10 days, and more stamina in my workouts. I'm guessing I can put on more weight and strength though, because I wasn't using a protein supplement for those 10 days, and I was not getting the amount of water required. Not even close.

I'm gonna write a body blog entry about my experience with GNC Amplified Creatine 189 when I get through the bottle, which should be in about a month.

If your already taking it, I read that breaking the pills in half helps absorption, and that you should be drinking about 1.5-2 gallons of water per day. 1 gallon just because your lifting pretty heavy, and another gallon b/c of the creatine your taking.

Just my 2 cents.

i'm can assure you that your 8-10lb gain did not come solely from celltech hardcore

[warrior504th]

Yeah I had great results with 189. I didn't have problems digesting it either, but I chewed them up just to be safe. Within a week of my first cycle, I saw noticeable gains in strength, stamina, and energy. My max rep bench of 205lbs went from 6 to 10 after about a week and a half. I'm actually thinking about stacking it with Kre-Alkalyn EFX that I just bought.

The only info I've gotten on it is what's on the package. You know, like 400% more efficient and all that...

I'm almost positive Creatine Hydrochloride is Creatine Ethyl Ester Hydrochloride. If it is, I highly recommend you do not chew it... I wouldn't chew any hydrochloride product to begin with, but especially not that.

EDIT: May also be worth noting that a creatine lode of 20g is great, but only proven effective for the first 3-4 days. Also, it only brings about the effect sooner (1-2 weeks sooner) and not ever BETTER results.

[chasinSKURT]

Creatine HCl in no way implies an ethyl ester...

This is probably the worst creatine idea I've ever seen. Creatine HCl? HCl is an acid (when mixed in solution), so technically all it would do is lower your stomach pH, and help to convert creatine to creatinine.

Horrible idea.

Also, you'd be able to tell if it were CEE by the smell... the stuff reeks.

[warrior504th]

Creatine HCl in no way implies an ethyl ester...

This is probably the worst creatine idea I've ever seen. Creatine HCl? HCl is an acid (when mixed in solution), so technically all it would do is lower your stomach pH, and help to convert creatine to creatinine.

Horrible idea.

I rofled Thank you for the correction.

Now, we await the "But GNC says its 189% better lulz!"

[warrior504th]

Hydrochloric Acid lulz @ 2:25

dont eat aluminum foil afterwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqs4o1ePbhc

[SharpieGoal]

I didn't have a great experience with the Amp189...No digestion issues are anything like that, but nowhere near as affective as mono powder (for me that is).

I had to dump half the bottle off on a buddy of mine, it just wasn't doing it for me.

[chasinSKURT]

Hydrochloric Acid lulz @ 2:25

dont eat aluminum foil afterwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqs4o1ePbhc

Ha, nice.

I've never tried that in school or heard of anyone doing that, but I imagine the HCl reacts with Al and yields aluminum chloride, and gaseous hydrogen.

HCl + Al ---> AlCl (aqueous) + H (gas)

[warrior504th]

Ha, nice.

I've never tried that in school or heard of anyone doing that, but I imagine the HCl reacts with Al and yields aluminum chloride, and gaseous hydrogen.

HCl + Al ---> AlCl (aqueous) + H (gas)

AH! Now I understand why they want to bind it to creatine for ingestion!


















not.

[Cobraboy]

bumpity bump...



I just bought some of this today. Does anybody else have some info on it? If this stuff is crap I'm just gonna take it back.


Keeping receipts ftw

[TMac26]

I'm curious also...as the new C-Bol has creatine HCL in it..and people are raving about it...

[mr.giggles]

MRI CE2 has the same creatine in it as well...been around for a awhile...

[TMac26]

MRI CE2 has the same creatine in it as well...been around for a awhile...

That IS Creatine Ethyl Ester Hydrocloride.....Creatine HCL is Creatine Hydrocloride

[Cobraboy]

What is the difference between the ethyl ester and the reg creatine hydrochloride then? Should I take this stuff like I normally would any other creatine powder?

I have been using creatine for years and have always liked the results. I guess the Hydrochloride creatine doesn't cause bloating? How is that possible when creatine causes water retention? Isn't that how it works?

Somebody with a little more scientific savy please clarify... lol. All I need to know is what is so different about it and does it work any better.

400% better ajfa;lkjdfakja;d... lmfao... no but seriously.

[TMac26]

What is the difference between the ethyl ester and the reg creatine hydrochloride then? Should I take this stuff like I normally would any other creatine powder?

I have been using creatine for years and have always liked the results. I guess the Hydrochloride creatine doesn't cause bloating? How is that possible when creatine causes water retention? Isn't that how it works?

Somebody with a little more scientific savy please clarify... lol. All I need to know is what is so different about it and does it work any better.

400% better ajfa;lkjdfakja;d... lmfao... no but seriously.

IMO...Creatine Ethyl Ester is junk studies have proven it to be junk.....Creatine HCL works pretty well...used that "189" but i crushed up the pills into powder (i hate horsepills)

[Cobraboy]

yeah from what I read about it the hydrochoride seems good. The pills are freakin' monstrous lol.. I already broke them in half earlier when I opened the bottle.

I'm excited to hit the gym tomorrow... I also picked up that Wheyabolic extreme 60 powder. Stuff seems legit. So I'm using pretty much all GNC brands at the moment. I also have the AMP Mass XXX.

By the way...... cookies and cream.......... o?0... wowsa

[TMac26]

yeah from what I read about it the hydrochoride seems good. The pills are freakin' monstrous lol.. I already broke them in half earlier when I opened the bottle.

I'm excited to hit the gym tomorrow... I also picked up that Wheyabolic extreme 60 powder. Stuff seems legit. So I'm using pretty much all GNC brands at the moment. I also have the AMP Mass XXX.

By the way...... cookies and cream.......... o?0... wowsa

Wheybolic is good but god its expensive...i only use it post workout and 2 scoops only at that

[Cobraboy]

yeah it is very very expensive... but I don't mind payin' for quality I guess. And I agree, 60g in one shot is too much for me... I usually do like a 30-40g shake (milk included) after a workout then a little bit of a smaller one right before bed.. like 20 or so

[in10city]

What is the difference between the ethyl ester and the reg creatine hydrochloride then? Should I take this stuff like I normally would any other creatine powder?

I have been using creatine for years and have always liked the results. I guess the Hydrochloride creatine doesn't cause bloating? How is that possible when creatine causes water retention? Isn't that how it works?

Somebody with a little more scientific savy please clarify... lol. All I need to know is what is so different about it and does it work any better.

400% better ajfa;lkjdfakja;d... lmfao... no but seriously.

CEE underperforms when compared to CrM on a number of measurable variables [creatine elevation rate, creatinine level, extracellular water].

CrHCl and enteric coated PEG/CrHcl [Amp 189] are not exactly the same and have different pharmacokinetics.

Here's some PEG/CrHCl info: http://recomp.com/wiki/index.php5?ti...lated_Creatine

And some CrHCl info: http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.or...906_Miller.pdf

The CrHCl has better solubility and produces a larger AUC compared to an equivalent amount of CrM. Less GI distress would likely be experienced and probably a bit less can be used to acheive the same AUC.

[MarkFaulkner]

Okay, for starters, let me engage in full disclosure.......My name is Mark Faulkner and I am one of the inventors of Creatine Hydrochloride (CH) and am one of the patent holders for CH.

This forum is new to me and I am guessing with my schedule I won't be able to come read it too often but will do so as often as possible in case anyone has questions OR, if desired, I can give my email address and when people email with questions, they can post my replies in here as they wish.

Anyway, I will try to respond to the various comments and questions I see in here...

First to answer Mr. Warrior on a few things, CH is not a waste compared to creatine monohydrate (CM). The performance of CH is in all relevant categories (strength building, recovery after workout and between sets, endurance during strenuous exertion, and side effects) is far superior to CM. We have studied this molecule at length since synthesizing it back in early 2003 (it was actually made by mistake when we were synthesizing creatine ethyl ester hydrochloride for MRI's CE2...we erred on a batch and CH is what we ended up with). In the categories of molecular stability, solubility, and plasma uptake into the bloodstream, CH far exceeds CM in desired properties.

And Mr. Warrior, you don't need to load CH. And no cycling on and off is required or suggested. And no certain things to be concerned about with CH in terms of "destroying" it's effects because it is remarkably stable. The only thing I would observe since you say you are taking GNC's Amp 189 is the oddity that with GNC's formulation of our molecule, they are using what they describe as a patent-pending PEG (polyethylene glycol) additive/coating/conjugation with the CH and our studies indicate that this PEG product structure inhibits full uptake of our CH molecule. I wouldn't have formulated it in that manner.

Further Mr. Warrior, not sure where you read about the acid of CH destroying the creatine, but that is not accurate. The creatine is very stable with this conjugation throughout the ingestion and bio-uptake process. We presented studies at the International Society of Sports Nutrition that confirmed this fact. (good of you to be digging into all the info you can find, though!). As for chloride leading to impotence...(quite funny)...since your stomach is full of hydrochloric acid, it should be pretty apparent that such a concern is not well-founded.

To Mr. LastLieutinant's comment about 189 being the only CH product on the market...actually the first product on the market with CH is Con-Cret (see con-cret dotcom) and Amp 189 is somewhat of a GNC knock-off of Con-Cret (CC), although CC doesn't have the PEG formulation, it's just pure CH. And also, normal hydration is all that's required of someone taking CH...whatever is recommended for an active person. It's always important to stay properly hydrated when doing any exercise, with or without supplementation.

For Mr. Krager...Kre-Alkalyn is just CM powder that has been blended with a buffering powder. But once in the gut where the stomach acid neutralizes any buffer, all you are left with is CM with it's traditional properties. If you are taking an effective creatine, you don't need to add another creatine.

Back to Mr. Warrior (I'm reading these posts in sequence!)...no, CH is not CEE...they are quite different molecules with very different properties and appearance. As a summary here is an edited version of something I wrote for another inquiry on the differences:
Creatine ethly ester hydrochloride (CEE) is a compound that typically is
synthesized by reacting creatine monohydrate (CM), in a solution / slurry
with ethanol, in the presence of an acid catalyst. This process removes hydrate from the creatine molecule and conjugates the creatine molecule with an ethyl ester molecule derived from the alcohol medium. This change in molecular structure aids in
bioavailibility and solubility (thereby, potency) in a range of 11x vs CM. CEE is a fine talc-like powder with low particle density and a very bitter taste. ON THE OTHER HAND, creatine hydrochloride (CH) has no ethyl ester conjugation and therefore retains a creatine salt characteristic, albeit profoundly more bioavailable and soluble (thereby,
greater potency). Unlike CEE or CM, pure CH has a crystal-salt-like appearance with high particle density and a very tart taste. It's different molecular structure results in a 59x improvement in solubility (potential for uptake into the blood). It's structure and solubility makes CH exceptionally symbiotic with the G.I. tract and the body's affinity for absorbing aqueous-soluble nutrients (i.e. if things aren't in solution, they won't get into your bloodstream).

As for Mr. ChasinSKURT, I smile as I completely disagree with your assessment of CH being the worst creatine idea. First, it wasn't an idea, it was a discovery and we were surprised at the molecule's properties but as we studied it over a number of years, it made sense why it performed so well. And to correct you, it would be difficult for anything ingestible to lower to the pH of the gut...it is very acidic on it's own and we can't orally consume things strong enough to effect it's pH...such things would eat our mouth and esophagus. And as for a low pH causing creatine to convert to creatinine, that is simply not accurate -- creatine, even fragile ones like CEE, are VERY stable in low pH. It's when pH's are closer to neutral that some, like CM and CEE, convert to creatinine. Pure CH though, is very stable at low or neutral or high pH and has virtually no conversion to creatinine.

For Mr. TMac26...I am unfamiliar with C-Bol but will try to find something on it when I have a chance.

For Mr.Giggles...MRI's CE2 is CEE and is not the same compound as CH in Con-Cret or Amp189 (I know this well because as referenced above, I was the source for CEE for MRI's CE2 product...I developed commercial production methods for the reseachers at Nebraska who were synthesizing the CEE molecule). (So Mr. TMac26's comment on the difference is correct!).

For Mr. CobraBoy, creatine doesn't cause water retention, CM causes water retention...and really water/fluid "re-distribution" and the body struggles to deal with and excrete the overload amounts of CM and other poorly soluble creatines that are necessary to get "some" of the compound into the bloodstream.

Back to Mr. TMac26, CEE isn't junk...it actually has excellent science behind it and it is more soluble than CM or others, just not as soluble and bio-available as CH.

Mr. In10City is correct in his 8/25/09 comments.

Anyway, sorry I wasn't around earlier to respond to these but I hope this helps...

Mark Faulkner
markf at vireosystems dotcom

[jharri21]

In regards to GNC's CH supplement "Amplified 189" because of the coating it inhibits the CH . Would chewing the pill up when taken improve overall absorption? I have just started taking this supplement and hope to retreive good results does anyone have any advice? Thanks

[chasinSKURT]

CEE underperforms when compared to CrM on a number of measurable variables [creatine elevation rate, creatinine level, extracellular water].

CrHCl and enteric coated PEG/CrHcl [Amp 189] are not exactly the same and have different pharmacokinetics.

Here's some PEG/CrHCl info: http://recomp.com/wiki/index.php5?ti...lated_Creatine

And some CrHCl info: http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.or...906_Miller.pdf

The CrHCl has better solubility and produces a larger AUC compared to an equivalent amount of CrM. Less GI distress would likely be experienced and probably a bit less can be used to acheive the same AUC.

I'm still sticking with CrM, as its ability to cause stomach distress seems blown out of proportion, and I'd much rather have H2O as an immediate metabolite versus H+ ions from using an ergogenic.

Just my $.02

[will335]

I stopped taking this 2 weeks ago after about 9 months on and with 3x per week workouts have noticed no difference in strength or bodyweight or energy.

I was also taking GNC's beta-alanine and stopped that too, with no loss in any of the above categories.

Thermoburst is also out in favor of caffeine powder, for about 1/10th of the price.

[Joeker31]

To Mark, Since you created both the creatine for GNC's Amplified 189 and also the Creatine for MRI's CEE what would you say is a better form of creatine to use? Ive always been a big fan of cell tech hardcore by muscletech and if Creatine HCL is as good as you say it is im surprised MT hasnt jumped on the bandwagon yet....appreciate the feedback , thanks.

Okay, for starters, let me engage in full disclosure.......My name is Mark Faulkner and I am one of the inventors of Creatine Hydrochloride (CH) and am one of the patent holders for CH.

This forum is new to me and I am guessing with my schedule I won't be able to come read it too often but will do so as often as possible in case anyone has questions OR, if desired, I can give my email address and when people email with questions, they can post my replies in here as they wish.

Anyway, I will try to respond to the various comments and questions I see in here...

First to answer Mr. Warrior on a few things, CH is not a waste compared to creatine monohydrate (CM). The performance of CH is in all relevant categories (strength building, recovery after workout and between sets, endurance during strenuous exertion, and side effects) is far superior to CM. We have studied this molecule at length since synthesizing it back in early 2003 (it was actually made by mistake when we were synthesizing creatine ethyl ester hydrochloride for MRI's CE2...we erred on a batch and CH is what we ended up with). In the categories of molecular stability, solubility, and plasma uptake into the bloodstream, CH far exceeds CM in desired properties.

And Mr. Warrior, you don't need to load CH. And no cycling on and off is required or suggested. And no certain things to be concerned about with CH in terms of "destroying" it's effects because it is remarkably stable. The only thing I would observe since you say you are taking GNC's Amp 189 is the oddity that with GNC's formulation of our molecule, they are using what they describe as a patent-pending PEG (polyethylene glycol) additive/coating/conjugation with the CH and our studies indicate that this PEG product structure inhibits full uptake of our CH molecule. I wouldn't have formulated it in that manner.

Further Mr. Warrior, not sure where you read about the acid of CH destroying the creatine, but that is not accurate. The creatine is very stable with this conjugation throughout the ingestion and bio-uptake process. We presented studies at the International Society of Sports Nutrition that confirmed this fact. (good of you to be digging into all the info you can find, though!). As for chloride leading to impotence...(quite funny)...since your stomach is full of hydrochloric acid, it should be pretty apparent that such a concern is not well-founded.

To Mr. LastLieutinant's comment about 189 being the only CH product on the market...actually the first product on the market with CH is Con-Cret (see con-cret dotcom) and Amp 189 is somewhat of a GNC knock-off of Con-Cret (CC), although CC doesn't have the PEG formulation, it's just pure CH. And also, normal hydration is all that's required of someone taking CH...whatever is recommended for an active person. It's always important to stay properly hydrated when doing any exercise, with or without supplementation.

For Mr. Krager...Kre-Alkalyn is just CM powder that has been blended with a buffering powder. But once in the gut where the stomach acid neutralizes any buffer, all you are left with is CM with it's traditional properties. If you are taking an effective creatine, you don't need to add another creatine.

Back to Mr. Warrior (I'm reading these posts in sequence!)...no, CH is not CEE...they are quite different molecules with very different properties and appearance. As a summary here is an edited version of something I wrote for another inquiry on the differences:
Creatine ethly ester hydrochloride (CEE) is a compound that typically is
synthesized by reacting creatine monohydrate (CM), in a solution / slurry
with ethanol, in the presence of an acid catalyst. This process removes hydrate from the creatine molecule and conjugates the creatine molecule with an ethyl ester molecule derived from the alcohol medium. This change in molecular structure aids in
bioavailibility and solubility (thereby, potency) in a range of 11x vs CM. CEE is a fine talc-like powder with low particle density and a very bitter taste. ON THE OTHER HAND, creatine hydrochloride (CH) has no ethyl ester conjugation and therefore retains a creatine salt characteristic, albeit profoundly more bioavailable and soluble (thereby,
greater potency). Unlike CEE or CM, pure CH has a crystal-salt-like appearance with high particle density and a very tart taste. It's different molecular structure results in a 59x improvement in solubility (potential for uptake into the blood). It's structure and solubility makes CH exceptionally symbiotic with the G.I. tract and the body's affinity for absorbing aqueous-soluble nutrients (i.e. if things aren't in solution, they won't get into your bloodstream).

As for Mr. ChasinSKURT, I smile as I completely disagree with your assessment of CH being the worst creatine idea. First, it wasn't an idea, it was a discovery and we were surprised at the molecule's properties but as we studied it over a number of years, it made sense why it performed so well. And to correct you, it would be difficult for anything ingestible to lower to the pH of the gut...it is very acidic on it's own and we can't orally consume things strong enough to effect it's pH...such things would eat our mouth and esophagus. And as for a low pH causing creatine to convert to creatinine, that is simply not accurate -- creatine, even fragile ones like CEE, are VERY stable in low pH. It's when pH's are closer to neutral that some, like CM and CEE, convert to creatinine. Pure CH though, is very stable at low or neutral or high pH and has virtually no conversion to creatinine.

For Mr. TMac26...I am unfamiliar with C-Bol but will try to find something on it when I have a chance.

For Mr.Giggles...MRI's CE2 is CEE and is not the same compound as CH in Con-Cret or Amp189 (I know this well because as referenced above, I was the source for CEE for MRI's CE2 product...I developed commercial production methods for the reseachers at Nebraska who were synthesizing the CEE molecule). (So Mr. TMac26's comment on the difference is correct!).

For Mr. CobraBoy, creatine doesn't cause water retention, CM causes water retention...and really water/fluid "re-distribution" and the body struggles to deal with and excrete the overload amounts of CM and other poorly soluble creatines that are necessary to get "some" of the compound into the bloodstream.

Back to Mr. TMac26, CEE isn't junk...it actually has excellent science behind it and it is more soluble than CM or others, just not as soluble and bio-available as CH.

Mr. In10City is correct in his 8/25/09 comments.

Anyway, sorry I wasn't around earlier to respond to these but I hope this helps...

Mark Faulkner
markf at vireosystems dotcom

[MarkFaulkner]

To Mark, Since you created both the creatine for GNC's Amplified 189 and also the Creatine for MRI's CEE what would you say is a better form of creatine to use? Ive always been a big fan of cell tech hardcore by muscletech and if Creatine HCL is as good as you say it is im surprised MT hasnt jumped on the bandwagon yet....appreciate the feedback , thanks.

Dear Joeker31,

So sorry to be delayed in responding. I'm not on these forums very often and it's been a VERY busy summer. And just to be specific, while we created Creatine Hydrochloride (C-HCl) and hold a patent on it with other patents pending, it was scientists at the University of Nebraska that invented the CEE that MRI commercialized -- we just helped Nebraska figure out how to manufacture CEE at commercial scale and work with it (both turned out to be very tricky things to do) and we are now the sole licensed producer of CEE.

As for which is better...it depends on what you are trying to achieve. But for most people in this forum, I am thinking the goal is increased strength, muscular development and refinement (getting lean and cut), and recovery from hard work-outs. And if that is the case, then C-HCl is the preferred creatine form.

As for MuscleTech's, I don't know what their perspective of C-HCl is, but I know that at least one other company has swapped their other forms of creatine and started buying CON-CRET from us to put in as an ingredient instead.

Thanks for the question and good luck (and again, sorry for the delay...if I ever am too slow to respond because I don't see these, someone can email me to tell me I have a question waiting! I'm at mfaulkner at promerahealth dot com...I'l get online and post ASAP)

Best,

Mark Faulkner