bodywieght to amount you can lift ratio

[swolegantor]

I didnt say height is completely random. I am saying that being 7'+ doesent mean your going to be 7'+ and your chances are just shy of Not happening.

I said most of the kids are going to be just over above average height. Most likely. And thats all. This has absolutely no relevance to the point I am trying to make however. As im simply trying to state that weak people are the only ones who ever seem to go on and on about genetics.

[swolegantor]

These are a bunch of ELITE powerlifters on genetics.


Who the **** are you two again?

[toad1]

I don't see the comparison between your statement and mine.

A 7' father and 6'2" mother are not going to have a bunch of 5'10" sons and 5'6" daughters. Are you kidding me? I don't know any guy who is over 6'4" who doesn't have a dad that's 6'2"+ or a mother who is 5'9"+(both well above average height), just like I don't know any guy under 5'4" who doesn't have a short mother or short father.

You are backing the idea that height is completely random... which is just stupid.

^^x2 height is genetics its a fact, a man should allways be taller than his mother and if his mum's tall his dad usually will be tall aswell, as tall people tend to go out with tall people but thats just a generalisation. if you have a 6'foot mum then the smallest you should be unless you have a growth disorder(sp) is 6'foot and the same if your mum is 5'4' the smallest you can be is 5'4 thats a fact.



anyway when i started this post i didn't want it to go into gentics as thats not what i'm bothered about i just wanted to know if there are limits to what the human bodies of idvidiuals can lift and i think i have my answer.



i would say genetics do play apart in plifting and any sport esp when it comes to the elite level, what about sprinting and longdistance running, i'm pretty sure that 'black' ppl have more fast twitch fibres in there bodies than white pll so they tend to be faster and why is it that alot of long distance runners come from places like kenya etc thats all genetics.(don't post one off or a few examples of oposites its a general genetic fact)

[Kiknskreem]

I have trained with someone who has benched 800 and weighs over 300 lbs. He is 5'8". 10 years ago, he was 198 lbs and benched in the 300s. Tell me genetics played a part in his success.

Of course it did. Your genetics affect every single physical process in your body.

I don't understand why anytime there is any mention of genetics people make the assumption that its in the context of someone scapegoating their poor results. While there are plenty of people that do that, that doesn't mean every mention of genetics is a scapegoat. Fact is, genetics exert a GINORMOUS influence on all of our physical capabilities and each individuals tendency to excel at a given sport.

Take Hossein Razazzadeh... no matter how much hard work he put into winning the Boston Marathon, its just not going to happen. He does not have a suitable genotype to succeed. The same could be said of the winner of the Boston Marathon if he tried his hand at powerlifting/weightlifting.


Here's how significant of a difference genetics make.... how much do men lift? How much do women lift?

The difference is genetics. Not training, not hard work.... its DNA.

[zogorion]

If you haven't checked out the "Why you suck" article on T-nation's Atomic Dog column, you really should. Why you suck

Not trying for a shameless plug here. But I thought it was worth mentioning that the article cite's some interesting studies from the 80's and 90's that draw convincing parallels between your success in a given (team) sport and your birth month. And another study which correlated, amazingly enough, your success level at music instrument performance with how much time you spent practicing. The psychologist who performed the study couldn't find an example of the hard worker who had spent as much time practicing as the elites, who just wasn't able to play well because of genetics or whatever other excuse. He also could not find an example of a REALLY gifted musician who didn't need to practice as much as the elites to play as well. The only example of this named in the study was Bobby Fisher who reached chess master level in 9 years practice, which was crazy in terms of chess playing, not that i know anything about chess. You should check out the article though.

[Drew23]

Take Hossein Razazzadeh... no matter how much hard work he put into winning the Boston Marathon, its just not going to happen. He does not have a suitable genotype to succeed. The same could be said of the winner of the Boston Marathon if he tried his hand at powerlifting/weightlifting.

I don't buy that.

[Kiknskreem]

I don't buy that.

That's just silly.

Haven't you ever noticed that at the top levels of sport, people who play the same position also have similar builds? Certain features lend themselves to the playing of each sport.

Once cannot have maximum fast twitch, anaerobic capability (razzazadeh) and also be capable of having maximum proficiency at aerobic events. Rezazzadeh has a big skeleton ad dense bones and joints... good marathoners need the opposite. These capacities are in large part genetically determined.

Here's a good snippet.....

Mark Rippetoe... Practical Programming, p 104-105

Genetic Potential

"Genetics" is a term bandied about fairly loosely in sports. A good definition of genetic potential is whether the athlete posseses the active genotype necessary to excel in sport. In simpler terms, does the athlete have a suitable set of genes, and enough of them turned on, to be good in the sport of choice?

There are at least 73 genes associated with fitness and performance. While humans all swim in the same genetic pool, there is a huge amount of variation in both the genes posessed and the genes actively expressed. These variations lead to differences in performance potential. And so, like it or not, here is the rule: DNA makes RNA makes protein makes function. The reality is that genetic potential ultimately affects the performance of every individual.

As an example of how a specific gene may effect performance, consider the actn3 gene, a little segment of DNA that ultimately codes for the production of alpha-actinin, a structural protein in the z-line of sarcomere. Studies have shown that posession of specific variants of this gene was strongly associated with elite sprint perofrmance. Three variants of this gene have been identified, RR, RX, and XX. Posession of a specific actn3 profile is strongly associate with either an elite power or endurance performance. In elite sprinters (up to the olympic level) 50% of all the actn3 variants expresse were RR, 45% were RX, and 5% were XX. In light of this data, the RR variant was termed the "sprint" variant and the XX was the "endurance" variant. It seems clear that the posession of the two different variants in significantly different ratios is associated with different performance capacities. A vast number of genes code for functinoal or metabolic proteins that can exert the same type of effect.

Factors of Growth Potential

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a repost of something buried deep in the site--lol, with a few additions.


Factors of Growth Potential

I see posts very frequently by guys that are just completely CLUELESS about the role genetics play in how one responds to training. These posts USUALLY come from one of two types of people. Guys with great genetics that have never had training partners that didn?t, or have never worked with a group of lifters over the long-term, and young guys that REALLY, REALLY want to believe that they can be the next Arnold, Yates, or Coleman.

Here are just SOME of the factors that ultimately determine how big and strong you get, and what paths are appropriate to get you there:

Cortisol output
Adrenaline output
Insulin output
insulin sensitivity
Thyroid output
Thyroid sensitivity
Testosterone production
Testosterone/hormone sensitivity
Testosterone to estrogen conversion
SHGB sensitivity
Testosterone to DHT conversion
Estrogen sensitivity
Growth Hormone output
Growth Hormone sensitivity
IGF output
IGF sensitivity
Digestive capability
Basic protein synthesis ability
Muscle fiber composition
Muscle fiber content
Motor unit recruitment/motor unit density
CNS output/CNS recovery
Hard wired stress response
Emotional states


ALL THESE FACTORS ARE ALL DETERMINED BY AN INDIVIUALS GENETICS. AND THEY DON?T VARY A LITTLE, THEY VARY A LOT. AND THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE!

Take a guy that has very little fast twitch fibers, or just very little muscle fibers compared to the average person, or well above average person and this person is NEVER, NEVER going to have anywhere NEAR the growth potential of someone that has more fiber to begin with no matter HOW BIG they hypertrophy them.

Oh, just add steroids and the below average guy is even. WRONG again. In the Soviet Union where the state spent much time researching these issues, they determined that hormone (steroid) sensitivity varied as much as 2 to 4 times. Which means the response and thus results one guy might get from a gram of gear would take 4 grams for another person to achieve. And these were highly technical studies carried out with good controls. Not what a bunch of gym meatheads observed. YES, THAT IS genetics in action.

To say genetics only accounts for a small degree of the achieved results is just PLAIN FLAT OUT WRONG AND ANY GOOD STRENGTH COACH OR SPORTS PHYSIOLIGIST WILL TELL YOU THAT.

17 out of 22 IFFB pro?s had a genetic growth factor that is not found to any degree of the population.

This does NOT mean you cannot make great progress or build a great body, but it does mean that most just simply don?t have the potential to be top bodybuilders. And EVERYONE responds differently. I am not trying to rain on anyone?s parade, and potential can only be known in retrospect AFTER you have tried. But all these posts by guys saying genetics are not important and guys just use them as an excuse is pure BS

Iron Addict

[Drew23]

That's just silly.

Haven't you ever noticed that at the top levels of sport, people who play the same position also have similar builds? Certain features lend themselves to the playing of each sport.

Once cannot have maximum fast twitch, anaerobic capability (razzazadeh) and also be capable of having maximum proficiency at aerobic events. Rezazzadeh has a big skeleton ad dense bones and joints... good marathoners need the opposite. These capacities are in large part genetically determined.

Here's a good snippet.....

The discussion is about lifting potential, not about genetic predisposition to certain sports. Of course certain people are going to have an easier time at certain sports based on their body types. But as far as lifting is concerned, you figure out how to lift the most weight given your body type. Genetics is not a good enough reason for strength.

If an elite powerlifter wanted to win a marathon, and he put in the years of work that it takes to get to that level, he would do it, or come pretty close.

Similarly, if a marathon runner wanted to be an elite powerlifter, and put in the years of work, then he would be an elite powerlifter.

[Kiknskreem]

The discussion is about lifting potential, not about genetic predisposition to certain sports.

One's genetic predisposition to powerlifting is the same thing as lifting potential...

Of course certain people are going to have an easier time at certain sports based on their body types. But as far as lifting is concerned, you figure out how to lift the most weight given your body type. Genetics is not a good enough reason for strength.

The effect of genetics goes far beyond just body-type. Many of the non-anthropometric factors are listed right in that post above. Those will all have a strong effect on strength.

If an elite powerlifter wanted to win a marathon, and he put in the years of work that it takes to get to that level, he would do it, or come pretty close.

Similarly, if a marathon runner wanted to be an elite powerlifter, and put in the years of work, then he would be an elite powerlifter.

Sure, hard work can take people far, but you seem to be massively discounting the influence of genetic factors. I find it almost baffling... this is hard science. The physical requirements to excell in each of those sports are in many ways totally opposed and those capacities are highly influenced by genetics.

If genetics weren't a valid reason to account for strength differences among athletes... why are there male/female divisions?

Those differences are the result of genetics....

[isaku900]

i think y'all are arguing in circles.

fwiw; here's my take.

your genetic predisposition towards a sport matters, your genetic potential in that sport matters.

but how many people actually utilize their full genetic potential?

very few, so the attitude should be that genetics don't matter and that hard work will overcome all.

people asking about genetics just tends to smack of an excuse because they're nowhere near their potential and it appears that they're looking for a reason to avoid the hard work that lets you know whether you have a shot at approaching an ideal genetic potential for the sport or not.

[tinyman5000]

why are people so focused on bodyweight/strength? i think people need to focus on their own goals

[Kiknskreem]

the attitude should be that genetics don't matter and that hard work will overcome all.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having that as an attitude towards training, but the fact of the matter is that genetics actually do matter, which is what it seems Drew disagrees with.

[dirtpool]

If you haven't checked out the "Why you suck" article on T-nation's Atomic Dog column, you really should. Why you suck

Not trying for a shameless plug here. But I thought it was worth mentioning that the article cite's some interesting studies from the 80's and 90's that draw convincing parallels between your success in a given (team) sport and your birth month. And another study which correlated, amazingly enough, your success level at music instrument performance with how much time you spent practicing. The psychologist who performed the study couldn't find an example of the hard worker who had spent as much time practicing as the elites, who just wasn't able to play well because of genetics or whatever other excuse. He also could not find an example of a REALLY gifted musician who didn't need to practice as much as the elites to play as well. The only example of this named in the study was Bobby Fisher who reached chess master level in 9 years practice, which was crazy in terms of chess playing, not that i know anything about chess. You should check out the article though.

I used to be a tournament chess player from about 15-18, from what I've read Bobby Fischer was absolutely obsessed with chess and had an around the clock work ethic that was pretty much unparalled..

I think if someone has a genetic predisposition to something they're also more likely to continue pursuing whatever they're doing and continue practicing. Like the music example, some people just have a really low aptitude for playing instruments and they'll become discouraged and make little progress.

[isaku900]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having that as an attitude towards training, but the fact of the matter is that genetics actually do matter, which is what it seems Drew disagrees with.

agreed.


i'm not sure you and drew are speaking towards the exact same thing.

[JHogg11]

Here's how significant of a difference genetics make.... how much do men lift? How much do women lift?

The difference is genetics. Not training, not hard work.... its DNA.

This is as simple as this needs to be. While the differences between a man and woman are obvious, the differences between two men that determine their abilities to lift are more subtle but they are still there.

I used to be a tournament chess player from about 15-18, from what I've read Bobby Fischer was absolutely obsessed with chess and had an around the clock work ethic that was pretty much unparalled..

I think if someone has a genetic predisposition to something they're also more likely to continue pursuing whatever they're doing and continue practicing. Like the music example, some people just have a really low aptitude for playing instruments and they'll become discouraged and make little progress.

And Bobby Fischer is well known for having a high IQ (might be what you're getting at with the second part). The average idiot could play all his life and not beat a ten year old Bobby Fischer.

[fatandrew09]

its funny, my genetics get better and better the longer and harder I train and the more weight I gain and the better my technique gets.

I bet if I waddled onto these boards a few years ago at 220lbs benching 105lbs with NEGATIVE biceps (when your so fat that you not only dont have a bump for a bicep but the fat hangs down so you have reverse flab biceps) that no one would think my genetics were special at all, and if I claimed I had good genetics that I would get laughed off the boards as a troll.


But over the years the kid with a 80" reach and legs that couldnt squat 225 off a high box in the smith machine slowly became stronger, read more, learned how to train, trained harder, gained a ton of weight, etc. And all of a sudden I have awesome genetics. Who knew?

How do people know my genetics are awesome? Because I lift more than them, duh. And the only reason I lift more is because of genetics, not because I bulked 135lbs when they bulked 20, or because I trained hard as **** and perfected the hell out of my form, and did enough research about training that I learned exactly what works for me when training. Its because of genetics.

People say that genetics dont so much have to do with where you start, but with how far you can go, but they them selves will never train as hard or bulk far enough or read enough to learn how to take their bodys as far as they can go. So they simply sit back and accept having "bad" genetics and talk about how great everyone elses genetics are.

No one has ever reached their genetic limit in strength, they especially havent reached their genetic strength limit while they weighed 180 or 200 or even 220lbs. So to the people who think they have bad genetics, how do you know?Ar you 300-400lbs? I mean you did bulk that far before you decided your genetics suck right? You didnt sit at 180lbs and assume your just weak because of genetics?

If you bulk and done get stronger, you need to change your training, not pretend its genetics.


EDIT: im babyslayer on my brothers account

[swolegantor]

I really dont think people "get" it. This really runs along the same vein as the dudes who can spout out three thousand seperate studies about why I only need .76313 per pound of bodyweight. Or the dude who can show you 305 charts proving that his take on your deadlift form is correct and that you should probably foam roll and eat 3.5 grams of fishoil per kilojoule of energy you expend pissing. Its the same as the dudes who cry rivers about genetics.

What do all these people have in common.

They are usually weak as piss and total ****ing pussies.


I dont give a **** what the ****ing medical doctor phd kinesicirclejerkists of sports medicine say. Or ****ing what mark ripptoe thinks. Or what the latest study by t-nation (BIOTESZXT!) says or any of that ****. Unlike alot of people, if someone is serious about something im not here to tell them why its impossible to do it. I just tell them the best way to it. And **** it if it doesent work, atleast they dont sit around the campfire with a bunch of Crossfitting ***gots and circle jerk about why the ****ing suck

[zogorion]

This is really a tough question. I have made a couple observations, feel free to disagree as i could be talking out of my arse. Smaller, lighter lifters have the ability to lift much greater relative weights(BWxMultiples) while larger lifters have the ability to lift much greater absolute weights, which is pretty much common knowledge. Some people value relative strength, others value absolute strength, not trying to turn this into that kind of thread. I've also read that Sumo wrestlers have more muscle mass than any other athletes...I know, hard to believe when looking at guys like Phil Pfister and TravOrt, but that's what I've read. So, this had me questioning just what the phrase "superior genetics" means in terms of both relative and absolute strength.
Are there undiscovered elite level powerlifters out there hiding inside the bodies of so many overweight american couch potatos who curse their "bad genetics" (or thyroid condition) for the ease at which they gain weight?

[Mr Beer]

Anyone who thinks that genetics doesn't make a big difference in powerlifting is discounting basic well known scientific facts. Of course it's annoying to have your years of hard work belittled by some lazy gym punk who claims you just got lucky in the genetic lottery, but that doesn't alter the fact that genetics are a big factor in any sport.

[GoJu]

some of these posts make me want to kill myself.

look; swolgenator, babyslayer, drew and anybody else in the screw genetics crowd can say what they want but genetics definetly has a bearing on your ultimate potential.

I do agree with isaku that most people will never reach that potential, but certain people's ceilings are still higher than others but I do agree that wherever you are in the genetic pool you will have to work hard to maximize what you've been given.

you can definetly work and hard and go places in lifting IMO (its what keeps me lifting, I never had any 'newb gains' or any of that garbage that I keep hearing around PL boards and I know I don't have any natural ability for this **** but I think I can still become strong if I just keep going)

will I get to the olympics? am I gonna clean&jerk the 210+kg that I need to be internationally competitive at my weight class? probably not, defeatist, a bit but you have to be realistic about this; doesn't mean I'm not gonna try my damndest to get there though.

[fatandrew09]

some of these posts make me want to kill myself.

look; swolgenator, babyslayer, drew and anybody else in the screw genetics crowd can say what they want but genetics definetly has a bearing on your ultimate potential.

I do agree with isaku that most people will never reach that potential, but certain people's ceilings are still higher than others but I do agree that wherever you are in the genetic pool you will have to work hard to maximize what you've been given.

you can definetly work and hard and go places in lifting IMO (its what keeps me lifting, I never had any 'newb gains' or any of that garbage that I keep hearing around PL boards and I know I don't have any natural ability for this **** but I think I can still become strong if I just keep going)

will I get to the olympics? am I gonna clean&jerk the 210+kg that I need to be internationally competitive at my weight class? probably not, defeatist, a bit but you have to be realistic about this; doesn't mean I'm not gonna try my damndest to get there though.

Being 5"10 180 is going to greatly inhibit your ability to be competitive in your weight class as a olympic lifter. The fact that your natural if going to greatly inhibit your ability to be competitive in your weight class as a olympic lifter. The fact that you arent trained by a world class coach and no longer need to work because your country pays for your food and housing etc is also going to greatly inhibit your ability to be competitive in your weight class as a olympic lifter.

steroids, proper diet, proper training, and proper coaching will always beat the big dumbass with awesome genetics who trains like a bitch and eats like **** and doesnt sleep enough/rest enough etc.


If two people ate with the exact same diet, trained the exact same way, slept the exact same ammount, took the exact same ammount of drugs etc, the guy with the better genetics would do better. But if the guy with the worse genetics had a better diet, a better training program, more sleep, more rest, better drugs and better coaching, he would lift more than the guy with good genetics.

The only problem with that is, the majority of people would probably assume that the guy with lesser genetics has better genetics than the guy who actually has the better genetics. No one really knows about whos genetics are better, its all speculation. I might box squat 800+ but I may only have the potential for 1100lbs while you might have the potential for 1300lbs you just arent giving your body what it needs to get there.

I think the average hard gainer weakling through enough effort can become bigger and stronger than 99.999% ofthe gym population, but Im sure many of you would disagree.


Its true, there are some people with flat out bad genetics, but how does anyone know if their genetics are good or not? You dont gain strength fast? You dont know how to train to produce the best gains for your self then. You dont gain weight fast? You dont eat enough. You dont gain muscle fast? Train harder, more volume, heavier, more often, and eat more.

I know kids who have better genetics than me, I know kids that could squat 900lbs raw in a few years of training if they gave a **** enough to try hard enough. I know kids who benched 335 when I did 225, and I passed them all because I wanted it more and was smarter and more consistent with my training.

If you look hard enough you will usually find theres a reason people are stronger than you, perhaps they weigh more, lifted for longer, have better form, were built for the lift, took drugs, train smarter etc. There are many ways that you can get the edge on your competition, be it diet, training, rest, form etc. If you try hard enough, and your consistent enough, you can usually get the edge in most of those things, and over time you will almost ALWAYS pass those people who lift more than you.

[GoJu]

good post

[mesayseo]

my belief is that genetics are the floor of where you can be in certain things.

but there are things that genetics are going to limit and define. height, bone structure, how your body naturally wants to distribute weight (muscle and fat) are some things genetics are the be all to end all factor.

now things like strength, speed, and intelligence are affected by many other factors that weigh in more so then genetics. now then also i have to say there is a genetic limit (and yes this card is played to often) but it takes a hell of alot of hardwork and dedication to reach that limit. the bar is set a lot higher then people are willing to push to.

the human body is by far the most fascinating organism that adapts in the short term and over the long term on an individual level and as a species.

[Demon-seven]

Should be atleast x6-8 bodyweight before bone break

[injured44]

So if we are only genetically different from chimps by 1-3%, then why is it so hard to accept that genetics play a minor role in success as a lifter?

thats terrible logic

congrats on being really strong but your arguments are pretty crappy

[Drew23]

thats terrible logic

congrats on being really strong but your arguments are pretty crappy

How is it terrible logic?

Chimp and human are 99% similar (I didn't say that, someone else did).
Average human and genetically superior human are 99% similar.

That doesn't make logical sense?