Minimum Nutritional Requirements

[wave_length]

What I would like to see is a thread of minimum nutritional requirements for the purpose of bodybuilding. In the regular nutrition section, it looks like people are overthinking their diets to a large degree. Here are my suggestion:

- 1 g of protein / lb of lean body mass,
- some fruits and veggies for micros and fiber,
- some essential fats (e.g. from flax oil, etc.).

IMO, for the rest of the calories, a wide variety of food is the best way to go (to get rest of the micros). I see no need to exclude anything from the diet.

Obviously this is not exactly a very scientific way of putting it, but I wanted to start out with something very simple. I would be interested to see the recommendations of others and the science behind it regarding the purpose of bodybuilding (= change of body composition).

[Gr3g_Lycan]

The absolute MINIMUMs are

- protein - 50g/day
- fat - 10g/day
- Vitamins (A,B group,C,D,E,K)
- minerals - Mg, Ca
- electrolytes (Na, K, Cl)

with appropriate food to give your daily calorie requirements.

(Try telling that to the guy on this site doing the starvation diet).

[wave_length]

Originally Posted by GregT

The absolute MINIMUMs are

- protein - 50g/day
- fat - 10g/day
- Vitamins (A,B group,C,D,E,K)
- minerals - Mg, Ca
- electrolytes (Na, K, Cl)

with appropriate food to give your daily calorie requirements.

(Try telling that to the guy on this site doing the starvation diet).

Is this for the purpose of bodybuilding in your opinion? What I meant is the minimums for optimal change of body composition. I don't think an absolute minimum for protein makes sense for that purpose. In my experience, 50g would be too low for that.

[Gr3g_Lycan]

Originally Posted by wave_length

Is this for the purpose of bodybuilding in your opinion? What I meant is the minimums for optimal change of body composition. I don't think an absolute minimum for protein makes sense for that purpose.

For bodybuilding 2g complete protein/kg body mass is OK.
Fish or flax seed oil, say 2g a day is good too.

[wave_length]

Originally Posted by GregT

For bodybuilding 2g complete protein/kg body mass is OK.
Fish or flax seed oil, say 2g a day is good too.

Perfect, that's pretty much what I wrote. I just advise people to take one gulp of healthy oil. Not really necessary if your diet provides the fats but just to be sure.

[Holyspokes]

I agree with the OP, It's what I do and then just fill in the rest of the calories with whatever else I want. If I do some intense cardio or long periods of exercise, I'll try to eat some extra carbs.

I'd say:

~1g/lb bw protein
~30g fiber

I'm not really sure on fiber, but I don't see why anyone would go below ~60g fat /day.

[AllGenetix]

you NEED sufficient fat for fat solube vitamins, hormone production, and other bodily functions. EFA's are also important, but not necessarily NEEDED. i would say minimum of .25-.5g/lb BW fat.

[wave_length]

Originally Posted by AllGenetix

EFA's are also important, but not necessarily NEEDED.

That one is kind of confusing, since the "E" in "EFA" means essential.

[Wfly]

need those healthy fats for energy too...

[MarkVI]

What the premise of this topic is missing are clearly defined goals "bodybuilding purposes" is too vague IMO. Wave length -- what were you thinking more specifically....what rate of LBM addition? How much fat % or LB'age would be acceptable are you thinking? I also think cutting is different as well since we have less opportunity to get in healthy micro/phyto nutrients etc....

[Emma-Leigh]

Originally Posted by wave_length

That one is kind of confusing, since the "E" in "EFA" means essential.

Without going into the details of the thread topic - in regards to EFA's specifically.... This is where many are confused by the term and have been lead to believe something different to what is true.

EFA = essential fatty acids. And they ARE essential... BUT --> A lot of people don't actually KNOW which fats are counted as essential fatty acids (and there is still a lot of debate in the nutritional community too), and what level of intake is actually 'essential'.

If people want to read about it I linked a few good articles here:

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

psssttt - total dietary fat requirements =/= EFA requirements.
Diet fats = total fat consumed.
EFA = essential fatty acids (those fatty acids that your body can not make but require for normal health/ functioning).

And the answer is 'it is complex' - and debate is still happening regarding which actual fatty acids ARE considered 'essential'....

But suffice to say, although those are good 'base' figures for total dietary fat - you don't need anywhere near that amount of the 'essential fatty acids'.

Few things to read:
READ ME
AND ME
ANOTHER HERE
AND HERE

[wave_length]

Originally Posted by MarkVI

What the premise of this topic is missing are clearly defined goals "bodybuilding purposes" is too vague IMO. Wave length -- what were you thinking more specifically....what rate of LBM addition? How much fat % or LB'age would be acceptable are you thinking? I also think cutting is different as well since we have less opportunity to get in healthy micro/phyto nutrients etc....

What I mean by that is changing body composition towards more muscle and less fat. The minimums specified should be what one must take to get optimal results either on a cut or a bulk regarding body composition. Intake above those minimums should not make a significant difference. If you think it's different for bulk or cut, just specify two sets of minimums.

[wave_length]

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

Without going into the details of the thread topic - in regards to EFA's specifically.... This is where many are confused by the term and have been lead to believe something different to what is true.

EFA = essential fatty acids. And they ARE essential... BUT --> A lot of people don't actually KNOW which fats are counted as essential fatty acids (and there is still a lot of debate in the nutritional community too), and what level of intake is actually 'essential'.

If people want to read about it I linked a few good articles here:

Thanks Emma-Leigh, I have also noticed that there have been quite some discussions on the topic lately. What would you suggest as minimal intake and in what form (if it's not covered by normal nutrition)?

[RandallH19891]

I don't get it. Aren't some of the people saying you need X grams of protein per day saying all that matters is the # of calories?

[MarkVI]

Originally Posted by wave_length

What I mean by that is changing body composition towards more muscle and less fat. The minimums specified should be what one must take to get optimal results either on a cut or a bulk regarding body composition. Intake above those minimums should not make a significant difference. If you think it's different for bulk or cut, just specify two sets of minimums.

That makes sense - thanks for clarifying.

Originally Posted by RandallH19891

I don't get it. Aren't some of the people saying you need X grams of protein per day saying all that matters is the # of calories?

No, there is still a minimum amount protein/fat/micronutrient/vitamin/mineral etc...that you need to maintain health. After that, we say it comes down to energy balance regardless of macronutrient ratio to determine rate of progression towards whatever goal you may have.

[Emma-Leigh]

Originally Posted by wave_length

Thanks Emma-Leigh, I have also noticed that there have been quite some discussions on the topic lately. What would you suggest as minimal intake and in what form (if it's not covered by normal nutrition)?

This is very hard to say - it depends on many things such as a persons age, or stage in growth and development (or if they are pregnant/ breastfeeding in the case of a female), their training status, and if they have any underlying health concerns or goals.

Omega-6 fats (Of which I would consider LA 'essential') are usually found at sufficient levels in most peoples diets, but something around 10-20g a day (being slightly less in females/ more in males) is 'an adequate minimum' for most people (male and female) between 18 and 45 to 50 years. In terms of % of diet - most suggest about 4-6% coming from omega-6 fats.

Omega-3 fats (of which I would consider ALA, EPA and DHA all 'essential' due to the poor conversion rates) needs to be, at a minimum, a combined total about 6-7g (once again - range of between 5 and 10g). So that is about 2-4g of ALA, and a combined total of 2-3g of EPA and DHA (eg: 6 to 10g fish oil caps a day).

To combine them - it would be a 'minimum healthy % PUFA fat' of about 8-10%

But, once again - I restate that these are MINIMUMS for 'health'. They are not what is 'optimal' nor 'best', especially for those who are in heavy training or have other issues to consider.

[martina92685]

OP I agree with your original post, but you need to add GREEN LEAFY veggies. I personally think they are the most important vegetables.

Also, just as an added note to try to "eat the rainbow." Everyone (bb or not) should try to eat different colored fruits and vegetable at least a few times a week. People who only eat bananas for fruit are realy cheating themselves!

And iceberg lettuce should be banned from anyone's diet. It's not a veggie, it's air and water.


edit - I think I am going to love this new subforum.

[Emma-Leigh]

Originally Posted by martina92685

OP I agree with your original post, but you need to add GREEN LEAFY veggies. I personally think they are the most important vegetables.

Also, just as an added note to try to "eat the rainbow." Everyone (bb or not) should try to eat different colored fruits and vegetable at least a few times a week. People who only eat bananas for fruit are realy cheating themselves!

And iceberg lettuce should be banned from anyone's diet. It's not a veggie, it's air and water.


edit - I think I am going to love this new subforum.

^^^ Yes a variety of vegetables are 'good' and yes they are 'healthy'.... But are they 'essential'??

And there is a difference...

Healthy = better for your overall health.
Essential = absence/ deficiency in these results in death.

So IMO something like what GregT posted earlier would be the 'essentials' (adequate calories/ adequate protein/ adequate vitamins and minerals).... Things like 'eating a variety of fruit and vegetables' would be 'healthier' but not 'necessary'.

[MrLovrLovr]

fruit is garbage martina unless you have your own growing then might be some use to it .

veggies ? besides fiber what do green veggies provide really ?

[Elfie.]

Originally Posted by MrLovrLovr

fruit is garbage martina unless you have your own growing then might be some use to it .

veggies ? besides fiber what do green veggies provide really ?

You're joking right? Please tell me you're joking.

This is what green leafy vegetables provide:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=38

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=16

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=43

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...spice&dbid=138

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=93

[Opies]

Minimum:
1g/lb protein
A variety of fats
Enough calories to meet your needs.

and that's it.

[martina92685]

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

^^^ Yes a variety of vegetables are 'good' and yes they are 'healthy'.... But are they 'essential'??

And there is a difference...

Healthy = better for your overall health.
Essential = absence/ deficiency in these results in death.

So IMO something like what GregT posted earlier would be the 'essentials' (adequate calories/ adequate protein/ adequate vitamins and minerals).... Things like 'eating a variety of fruit and vegetables' would be 'healthier' but not 'necessary'.

Well then FINE Emma-Leigh!!

GregT posted minimums but not where to get the micros from. I posted where to get them from. If you eat a variety of fruits and veggies you're likely to get your micros (except for that devil B-12).

Originally Posted by MrLovrLovr

fruit is garbage martina unless you have your own growing then might be some use to it .

veggies ? besides fiber what do green veggies provide really ?

I don't have to respond because - Insert Elfie:

Originally Posted by Elfie.

You're joking right? Please tell me you're joking.

This is what green leafy vegetables provide:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=38

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=16

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=43

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...spice&dbid=138

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=93

Thanks!

[justfyi]

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

^^^ Yes a variety of vegetables are 'good' and yes they are 'healthy'.... But are they 'essential'??

And there is a difference...

Healthy = better for your overall health.
Essential = absence/ deficiency in these results in death.

So IMO something like what GregT posted earlier would be the 'essentials' (adequate calories/ adequate protein/ adequate vitamins and minerals).... Things like 'eating a variety of fruit and vegetables' would be 'healthier' but not 'necessary'.

But arn't we talking about essential for the purposes of bodybuilding? You're right in the context of fruits and veg not being essential for life, but I would think that veggies and fruits contain a dense amount of micronutrients essential for optimum muscle performance and recovery.

[wave_length]

Funny how most people basically agree here while there seems to be an obsession over tiny amounts of macros if you read the diet posts on the nutrition section.

[martina92685]

Originally Posted by justfyi

But arn't we talking about essential for the purposes of bodybuilding? You're right in the context of fruits and veg not being essential for life, but I would think that veggies and fruits contain a dense amount of micronutrients essential for optimum muscle performance and recovery.

I'm with you - but there are several people on this site who avoid fruit because of its carb count. Not everyone thinks the way we do.

[MrLovrLovr]

So vitamin k , a and c and other things we all get from our oh so precious multis ...

KAC ?!

k gotcha


I eat green veggies but only cause I like them ..

NOT A REQUIREMENt

AND YES FRUITS ARE JUST SUGAR

[GermanBarbarian]

My RDI for lifting (about 2x RDI for majority of nutrients) for 2000 kcals unless stated otherwise

Calcium 1.6 gm/day
Iodine 300ug/day
Iron 36 mg/day
Phosphorus 1.6 gm/day
Magnesium 1.0 gm/day
Zinc 45 mg/day
Vitamin A 8,000 I.U per day = 1600 R.E.
Thiamin 1.6 mg per 1000 kcal/day
Riboflavin 1.2 mg per 1000 kcal/day
Folacin 800 ug/day
Vitamin B6 4.0 mg/day
Vitamin B12 6.0 ug/day
Absorbic Acid 120 mg/day
Vitamin D 30 ug/day
Vitamin E 16 mg/day T.E.

Calcium and phosphorus can be obtained by 4 cups of milk along with about 66% of the rdi for riboflavin about

Magnesium, Zinc, and iron are found in large quantities in cocoa powder

Iodine and a whole gamut of trace minerals can be obtained from either fish (certain fish especially sardines are good source of vitamin b12, b6, Folacin, and vitamin D) or seaweed

Peanuts are a very good source of Thiamin, Folacin, and Vitamin E


What I want to know is if one essentially balances the b-vitamins will they have a balanced diet?

[Emma-Leigh]

Originally Posted by martina92685

Well then FINE Emma-Leigh!!

GregT posted minimums but not where to get the micros from. I posted where to get them from. If you eat a variety of fruits and veggies you're likely to get your micros (except for that devil B-12).

[devils advocate]
.... Variety doesn't necessarily = you get your requirement... You can still be very much less than what you need, even if you eat a large range....(as you say in your wording - it increases the likelihood, but doesn't assure it)
For example
- Many of the frozen/ transported/ sitting in a back storeroom for 6 months vegetables that are available now days have much lower levels of micronutrients than people realise... So what if you live in places that depend on these sorts of supplies?
- What about things like 'anti-nutrients' that are in some vegetables? eg: oxalates in green vegetables - they bind calcium and prevent absorption...
- On the other hand most 'micro's' you CAN get from supplements at 'known/ standardised' doses... So why not save yourself the calories and use sups?
[/devils advocate]



My feelings.... As long as we are not talking about vegetables that have had the 'goodness flogged out of them' via transport/ storage, then most vegetables and fruits not only have the benefit of vitamins/ minerals with good biological availability, and in good co-absorbed combinations... BUT they also give OTHER things that you CAN'T get from sups (examples would be phyto-nutrients and bioactive compounds, with many yet unknown substances that have anti-cancer/ anti-dementia/ anti-diabetes effects + many additional health benefits...)

Originally Posted by justfyi

But arn't we talking about essential for the purposes of bodybuilding? You're right in the context of fruits and veg not being essential for life, but I would think that veggies and fruits contain a dense amount of micronutrients essential for optimum muscle performance and recovery.

Yes and no (see above...).

But to ask YOU a question in response --> what, in your opinion, would you see as being something given only by vegetables/ fruits that are 'optimal for muscle performance/ recovery' that you couldn't get from a supplement?

eg: are there any bioactive compounds in fruit/ vegetables that, to your knowledge, are 'optimal' for bodybuilding?

Originally Posted by MrLovrLovr

AND YES FRUITS ARE JUST SUGAR

And if you think this then you need to do a little more reading.

Originally Posted by GermanBarbarian

My RDI for lifting (about 2x RDI for majority of nutrients) for 2000 kcals unless stated otherwise

Calcium 1.6 gm/day
Iodine 300ug/day
Iron 36 mg/day
Phosphorus 1.6 gm/day
Magnesium 1.0 gm/day
Zinc 45 mg/day
Vitamin A 8,000 I.U per day = 1600 R.E.
Thiamin 1.6 mg per 1000 kcal/day
Riboflavin 1.2 mg per 1000 kcal/day
Folacin 800 ug/day
Vitamin B6 4.0 mg/day
Vitamin B12 6.0 ug/day
Absorbic Acid 120 mg/day
Vitamin D 30 ug/day
Vitamin E 16 mg/day T.E.

Hmmm.... interesting --> What made you pick these levels??

[MrLovrLovr]

No im not joking ..

this is Advanced nutrition right ?

step your gals game up and don't try to sound like a typical nutritionalist who majority of are full of it ..

[Catchol]

Originally Posted by MrLovrLovr

No im not joking ..

this is Advanced nutrition right ?

step your gals game up and don't try to sound like a typical nutritionalist who majority of are full of **** ..

Fruit is at least 50% fructose? Are you serious? Most fruit is at least 70% water.