Pain in joints during prep

[Fjock]

So to make it simple, I went through hell last season during my prep with pain in my knees and elbows. Enough pain to where I had to exclude certain exercises when training my tris, and simply couldn't squat sometimes when quad day came around. I can't really determine if this was because of inflammation in those areas or from having less fat to protect the joints. I'm not real big on taking NSAIDS for the pain. Although when i take 800-1600mg of ibuprofen, it seems to do the trick...

Just wondering if some of you guys had any good tips for limiting pain in joints for workouts. Or if there are any supplements you recommend... Thanks bros!

[Cape1]

Man, I got hammered earlier this year with joint pain once i got lean. I started taking Glucosomine and it helped a little. My shoulders felt like sand paper rubbing together.

HOpe this bumps you for a better suggestion

[stayfit2008]

I got great results from GNC Triflex (fast acting) formula. I started feeling like new in days!

[AustrianOakJr]

My knees would bother me during cardio.....I supplement with glucosomine and chondrointon (sp?). Seems to help. Also, fish oil seems to help out a bit as well.

[Fjock]

Originally Posted by Cape1

Man, I got hammered earlier this year with joint pain once i got lean. I started taking Glucosomine and it helped a little. My shoulders felt like sand paper rubbing together.

HOpe this bumps you for a better suggestion

Originally Posted by stayfit2008

I got great results from GNC Triflex (fast acting) formula. I started feeling like new in days!

Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr

My knees would bother me during cardio.....I supplement with glucosomine and chondrointon (sp?). Seems to help. Also, fish oil seems to help out a bit as well.

nice, thanks guys. I'll def try some glucosomine and ill pick up a bottle of that Triflex to see how I react to each.

If anyone else has any other suggestions please chime in

[AustrianOakJr]

Originally Posted by Fjock

nice, thanks guys. I'll def try some glucosomine and ill pick up a bottle of that Triflex to see how I react to each.

If anyone else has any other suggestions please chime in

I think the triflex has glucosomine and some other joint care supps in it.

[TigerStealth]

i used glucosamine and didnt feel much joint pain until i got to the final 3-4 weeks

[Fjock]

Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr

I think the triflex has glucosomine and some other joint care supps in it.

Gotcha, looks like you just saved me a few bucks heh. thanks again man

[Fjock]

Originally Posted by TigerStealth

i used glucosamine and didnt feel much joint pain until i got to the final 3-4 weeks

I can deal with the final 3-4 weeks of pain when my lifts begin to get lighter. But theres no way I wanna go through 7-8 weeks of it again

[Sean15782]

try bulk cissus powder from supplement direct! This stuff is awesome. My shoulders used to ache like crazy when I was lean/dieting. Not any more though. That and omega 3-6-9 help a ton!

[MattyH7688]

microlactin seems to work for me

[arnold23]

I found Cissus (I use Super Cissus RX) to help me out most with joint pain during prep. I had a really bad pain in my forearm whenever I did pressing movements and within 2-3 weeks of starting cissus I was virtually pain free. I've also used the GNC Triflex fast acting formula a year ago when I went back to heavy squatting, knee was clicking and in pain after the workouts but around 4 weeks most of the pain and the clicking was gone.

[REPS-Forum-Rep]

Originally Posted by Sean15782

try bulk cissus powder from supplement direct! This stuff is awesome. My shoulders used to ache like crazy when I was lean/dieting. Not any more though. That and omega 3-6-9 help a ton!

Thanks for your support! Were you taking 1 or 2 grams a day?

[dvsness]

I use http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/pl/gcm.html and http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/na...a3fishoil.html . While Cissus is good pain (I like http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/app/ost.html ) it is not prudent to use it chronically.

[Fjock]

Originally Posted by Sean15782

try bulk cissus powder from supplement direct! This stuff is awesome. My shoulders used to ache like crazy when I was lean/dieting. Not any more though. That and omega 3-6-9 help a ton!

Originally Posted by MattyH7688

microlactin seems to work for me

Originally Posted by arnold23

I found Cissus (I use Super Cissus RX) to help me out most with joint pain during prep. I had a really bad pain in my forearm whenever I did pressing movements and within 2-3 weeks of starting cissus I was virtually pain free. I've also used the GNC Triflex fast acting formula a year ago when I went back to heavy squatting, knee was clicking and in pain after the workouts but around 4 weeks most of the pain and the clicking was gone.

Originally Posted by dvsness

I use http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/pl/gcm.html and http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/na...a3fishoil.html . While Cissus is good pain (I like http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/app/ost.html ) it is not prudent to use it chronically.

Much obliged all!

[Sporto1633]

IMO, the main ingredients I have found to work the best are:

Glucosamine Sulfate
Chondroitin Sulfate
MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane)
Cissus

Now, obviously I'm partial to Primaforce's Elastimine and Cissus, but the bottom line is that these ingredients work. I've told this story before and I'll tell it again here. My last contest prep was the first contest prep I went through without joint pain. Normally they would ache all the time, but this last season I just happened to be taking Elastimine (didn't add Cissus until offseason). I didn't think anything of it until I ran out about 4 weeks before my last show. It's not one of those supplements you "feel" so I didn't think to get a new bottle at that point - and honestly, for several years I thought joint care was only something for old people. Well, within days of running out my joints turned into pure fire and I had to stop the heavy lifting I was doing until I got another bottle in. Within days, my joints were right as rain. That was all the proof I needed to know that those ingredients work. I take this stuff all year round as well now to help with the preventative side of things - the less I'm injured, the more I'm training and getting better...that's the way I see it.

So bottom line: These ingredients work and I would recommend them no matter which company you choose to buy from. They make a huge difference during prep.

Hope this helps

Sporto

[firecracker3]

*sigh* I haven't been as diligent taking my Glucosimine but I'm going back, my shoulders, elbows and knees are making me feel like I'm 60!! I DID notice a difference last prep when takin flax oil too and incorporating some flank steak in my diet....I should just go back to it for a while, though I am not a big red meat lover

BTW...what are your thoughts on NutriFlex or comparable product?

[Fjock]

Originally Posted by Sporto1633

IMO, the main ingredients I have found to work the best are:

Glucosamine Sulfate
Chondroitin Sulfate
MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane)
Cissus

Now, obviously I'm partial to Primaforce's Elastimine and Cissus, but the bottom line is that these ingredients work. I've told this story before and I'll tell it again here. My last contest prep was the first contest prep I went through without joint pain. Normally they would ache all the time, but this last season I just happened to be taking Elastimine (didn't add Cissus until offseason). I didn't think anything of it until I ran out about 4 weeks before my last show. It's not one of those supplements you "feel" so I didn't think to get a new bottle at that point - and honestly, for several years I thought joint care was only something for old people. Well, within days of running out my joints turned into pure fire and I had to stop the heavy lifting I was doing until I got another bottle in. Within days, my joints were right as rain. That was all the proof I needed to know that those ingredients work. I take this stuff all year round as well now to help with the preventative side of things - the less I'm injured, the more I'm training and getting better...that's the way I see it.

So bottom line: These ingredients work and I would recommend them no matter which company you choose to buy from. They make a huge difference during prep.

Hope this helps

Sporto

very informative post! thanks bro. Ill def keep an open mind about which products I choose as prep time gets closer. wish i would have asked this question about a year ago

[TheSovereign]

i'm no expert but perhaps the reason people hav joint pain while cutting is because they are not taking in enough fat? one of the purposes of fat is to lubricate your joints. When you're cutting, you want to be cutting fat, not muscle. less fat = less lubrication = joint pain.

perhaps you cut too much, too fast? Then again there are a myriad of other possibilities for join pains. I don't have them, so i couldn't really say which supplements would help

[Fjock]

Originally Posted by TheSovereign

i'm no expert but perhaps the reason people hav joint pain while cutting is because they are not taking in enough fat? one of the purposes of fat is to lubricate your joints. When you're cutting, you want to be cutting fat, not muscle. less fat = less lubrication = joint pain.

perhaps you cut too much, too fast? Then again there are a myriad of other possibilities for join pains. I don't have them, so i couldn't really say which supplements would help

Perhaps this is true for others, but i diet using keto which solely relies on pro/fats and my joints hurt like hell! lol

[dvsness]

Originally Posted by Sporto1633

I take this stuff all year round

Originally Posted by dvsness

Cissus is not prudent to use it chronically.

^^^^^

[Ivan25]

Yes, I believe that fat acts a shock absorber for the joint.. We have fat pads around various joints, especially the knees... However, the body has an abundant source of fat stores... Mostly in adipose tissue... It appears the body has many diverting paths (glycogen, intramuscular fat, protein) it takes as opposed to burning pure adipose tissue.... And it gets harder to burn adipose tissue the leaner we get... It's a diminishing returns situation... I believe we can be without joint pain at 3-4% body fat... 3-4% is the essential fat (lining covering membranes, organs, nerves, etc)... I believe having less subcutaneous fat reduces biomechanical leverage in joints... For example, having more body fat behind the legs (hams) cushions the joint at the bottom of the squat... When this layer is gone, no more cushion for the knee... My personal approach is that I only do 1-2 sets heavy and with a reduce ROM... For instance, I do leg press or squat at 90 degrees instead of deep... Modifying the ROM to 90 degrees or slightly less should help...

Whether lifting heavy during contest prep preserves muscle is debatable... For instance, is there a significant difference between lifting 70-85% of 1-RM vs. 90-100%? It's debatable... However, I guarantee that lifting at 70-85% for 1-2 sets and finishing the workout with a pump workout (50-70% of 1-RM) would serve to not only maintain muscle, but further stimulate fat-burning.. And isn't the goal to get peeled anyway?




My approach to off-season prep has changed as has precontest prep... The only issue of joint soreness I had was from my legs b/c of being on my feet so much (cardio, training, work, etc).... But I did get some customized orthotics so I think this can be mitigated this year substantially.. I have flat feet... This is besides the point...

The jury is still out on various joint support supplements IMO... I've taken glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin... No real noticeable effects... I do take fish oil and believe that works....

[Joe Go]

Thanks for the info Ivan.

[Sean15782]

Originally Posted by REPS-Forum-Rep

Thanks for your support! Were you taking 1 or 2 grams a day?

I used the 1/4 teaspoon(750mg) serving upon waking, post-workout, and before bed.

I will definitely use it in my next contest prep!

[Sporto1633]

Originally Posted by TheSovereign

i'm no expert but perhaps the reason people hav joint pain while cutting is because they are not taking in enough fat? one of the purposes of fat is to lubricate your joints. When you're cutting, you want to be cutting fat, not muscle. less fat = less lubrication = joint pain.

perhaps you cut too much, too fast? Then again there are a myriad of other possibilities for join pains. I don't have them, so i couldn't really say which supplements would help

The issue isn't the dieting approach, the issue is being so lean that you don't have enough bodyfat to lubricate the joints. If you are stage lean, you won't have enough bodyfat in your joints for lubrication period, it won't matter what approach you use to get there (either high, moderate or low fat diet).

Originally Posted by dvsness

^^^^^

Please explain.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

I believe we can be without joint pain at 3-4% body fat...

Please explain how having very low bodyfat (not enough for lubrication of joints) can result in no joint pain. Please.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

3-4% is the essential fat (lining covering membranes, organs, nerves, etc)... I believe having less subcutaneous fat reduces biomechanical leverage in joints... For example, having more body fat behind the legs (hams) cushions the joint at the bottom of the squat... When this layer is gone, no more cushion for the knee...

Because if this is your explaination, then it's obvious you've never been that lean before - I dont care what method told you so. And your previous pics you posted don't represent that bodyfat level either.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

1Whether lifting heavy during contest prep preserves muscle is debatable... For instance, is there a significant difference between lifting 70-85% of 1-RM vs. 90-100%? It's debatable... However, I guarantee that lifting at 70-85% for 1-2 sets and finishing the workout with a pump workout (50-70% of 1-RM) would serve to not only maintain muscle, but further stimulate fat-burning.. And isn't the goal to get peeled anyway?

The goal is not only to get peeled, but to preserve as much mass as possible while doing so. If you are natural, you must give the body a reason to hang onto muscle, otherwise it won't. Period. When you are lean enough for this to matter, the body could care less about muscle. The only way to maintain as much as you can is to give it that heavy workload stimulus. Overall balance of the workout is crucial here and MANY variables play into what is 'optimal' for an individual as far as volume/intensity/frequency. But, heavy lifting during contest prep is not debatable in a natural. It's a must if you want to keep as much muscle as you can.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

My approach to off-season prep has changed as has precontest prep... The only issue of joint soreness I had was from my legs b/c of being on my feet so much (cardio, training, work, etc).... But I did get some customized orthotics so I think this can be mitigated this year substantially.. I have flat feet... This is besides the point...

Not trying to be negative here, but you weren't at the level of leanness we are talking about for our joints being on fire. You had a ways to go, and we pointed this out to you when you posted pictures of you competing way back when. You legs weren't even dialed in yet. When you've got the glutes and hamstrings in, and you are lifting heavy like you should, then post on here about how your joints are feeling with no added supplementation for lubrication. I'd like to hear your thoughts then.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

The jury is still out on various joint support supplements IMO... I've taken glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin... No real noticeable effects... I do take fish oil and believe that works....

The jury is not out. When you aren't lean enough, the joint care supplements are for PREVENTATIVE measure and they are not supps you can "feel" when you take them. I take them all year round because the more preventative measures I can take like these (another reason why my form is pristine on all sets) the less time I spend out of the gym injured for some reason. The more time I spend nursing nagging injuries, the less ground I can make on my competitors.

Since you mentioned fish oil...why do you believe that works and not the others? Fish oil isn't something you can "feel" either. Just curious.

Sporto

[Fjock]

Originally Posted by Sporto1633

Since you mentioned fish oil...why do you believe that works and not the others? Fish oil isn't something you can "feel" either. Just curious.

Sporto

Agreed big time. I use lots of fish oil both off season and during prep since it is a rather large factor in a Palumbo style diet and quite frankly it does nothing to help my joints feel better.

[Fjock]

Originally Posted by Sporto1633

The goal is not only to get peeled, but to preserve as much mass as possible while doing so. If you are natural, you must give the body a reason to hang onto muscle, otherwise it won't. Period. When you are lean enough for this to matter, the body could care less about muscle. The only way to maintain as much as you can is to give it that heavy workload stimulus. Overall balance of the workout is crucial here and MANY variables play into what is 'optimal' for an individual as far as volume/intensity/frequency. But, heavy lifting during contest prep is not debatable in a natural. It's a must if you want to keep as much muscle as you can.
Sporto

IMO I think that this goes for all bodybuilders, whether they are natural or not. Yes it may be more crucial for naturals, but I feel that while on anabolics that lifting heavy is very important when it comes to maintaining muscle/mass as well while going through strict prep. Especially when you can rest assured that your competition is going to the same measures if not more regarding drug use . Ronnie clearly showed us all that being 3-5 weeks out is no time to "take it easy" if you want to win a championship. Im a big fan of going all out all the way through my prep... im just looking for ways to limit the pain while doing so.

[Ivan25]

Originally Posted by Sporto1633

The issue isn't the dieting approach, the issue is being so lean that you don't have enough bodyfat to lubricate the joints. If you are stage lean, you won't have enough bodyfat in your joints for lubrication period, it won't matter what approach you use to get there (either high, moderate or low fat diet).



Please explain.



Please explain how having very low bodyfat (not enough for lubrication of joints) can result in no joint pain. Please.



Because if this is your explaination, then it's obvious you've never been that lean before - I dont care what method told you so. And your previous pics you posted don't represent that bodyfat level either.



The goal is not only to get peeled, but to preserve as much mass as possible while doing so. If you are natural, you must give the body a reason to hang onto muscle, otherwise it won't. Period. When you are lean enough for this to matter, the body could care less about muscle. The only way to maintain as much as you can is to give it that heavy workload stimulus. Overall balance of the workout is crucial here and MANY variables play into what is 'optimal' for an individual as far as volume/intensity/frequency. But, heavy lifting during contest prep is not debatable in a natural. It's a must if you want to keep as much muscle as you can.



Not trying to be negative here, but you weren't at the level of leanness we are talking about for our joints being on fire. You had a ways to go, and we pointed this out to you when you posted pictures of you competing way back when. You legs weren't even dialed in yet. When you've got the glutes and hamstrings in, and you are lifting heavy like you should, then post on here about how your joints are feeling with no added supplementation for lubrication. I'd like to hear your thoughts then.



The jury is not out. When you aren't lean enough, the joint care supplements are for PREVENTATIVE measure and they are not supps you can "feel" when you take them. I take them all year round because the more preventative measures I can take like these (another reason why my form is pristine on all sets) the less time I spend out of the gym injured for some reason. The more time I spend nursing nagging injuries, the less ground I can make on my competitors.

Since you mentioned fish oil...why do you believe that works and not the others? Fish oil isn't something you can "feel" either. Just curious.

Sporto

It never ceases to amaze me... It's simple... Agree to disagree... I notice that there are some ppl in this thread who agree with me and others who don't... It's as simple as being an extremist on one end and not on another... I will never take it to the level you do or care to... I don't lift heavy year round.. And could care less to do so... Lifting heavy? Hmmm.. Define it by rep range... I'm referencing research in my rationale AND personal experience... Lifting at 75-80% of 1-RM is supported as a rep intensity that will preserve muscle... Not to mention there is research showing occlusion training also provides a stimulus for muscle growth.. So there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. So lifting heavy is relative... 405 for reps maybe heavy for you, but 315 for reps maybe heavy for me... We weigh different bodyweights.... So lifting heavy should be based on relative strength and what challenges that individual... So I'm happy attaining my little muscle mass I do have... Granted I haven't attained leanness like you, but experience I do have nonetheless... And I am not THAT far away from getting to 3-4%... If your'e basing this 3-4% bodyfat pain on lubrication, cite me some studies then rather than your experience... 3-4% is essential fat... Isn't joint lubrication ESSENTIAL fat? I didn't know joint lubricant properties were subcutaneous fat stores as well... Hey, I will be open to agree provided the research or science-supported evidence... I think my explanation of having less subcutaneous body fat around the limb thus reducing leverage is a factor as well in joint pain... Not to mention, lifting HEAVY... We just have a dichotomy in thought-process... I could care less about being BIG and ripped.. I'll be small and ripped, but with a v-taper that is impressive... I'll turn pro on my own right and compete as pro... And place maybe 10th as a pro, but still being a pro...

And the benefits of fish oil? All the supplements you take (joint supps) like cissus and stuff, NO RESEARCH to date... Nothing peer-reviewed or in reputable journals OR reputable sources (experts, etc).... Fish oil is prominent in that the omega-3 fatty acids serve more benefits than just joint health... Heart health as well... So it's a reputable supplement... So the jury is still out on the other supplements.

As far as my legs not being dialed in, wrong... It's a matter of opinion AND I apparently have a problem holding my legs hard in pics (via on-stage)... Define dialed in legs??? As far as I know, it's simple... And basic muscle anatomy should prove this... The main muscles we see from the front side of the legs are quads (vastus lat, med, rectus femoris [split down the middle]), with the sartorius wrapping on the inside of the quads... The advanced level would be having cross-striations in the quads...

Back side... Split hamstrings showing just 3 heads (bicep femoris and semi-tend and memb)... Advanced levels would be striated glutes...

Not that difficult from a viewing standpoint...

Now my level... My only levels of leanness never attained---> striated glutes, quads, triceps AND split hams... That's it... Everything else has been dialed in..

So to me, not that far away.

P.S. All I got to say is my new avatar is--> Hi I'm batman...

[Sporto1633]

Originally Posted by Fjock

IMO I think that this goes for all bodybuilders, whether they are natural or not. Yes it may be more crucial for naturals, but I feel that while on anabolics that lifting heavy is very important when it comes to maintaining muscle/mass as well while going through strict prep. Especially when you can rest assured that your competition is going to the same measures if not more regarding drug use . Ronnie clearly showed us all that being 3-5 weeks out is no time to "take it easy" if you want to win a championship. Im a big fan of going all out all the way through my prep... im just looking for ways to limit the pain while doing so.

I agree, I only state the "natural" discalimer because you can get away with some things when your prep is 'enhanced' versus if it isn't. My point really was just emphasizing that for a natural on prep, lifting heavy (which I will define below since Ivan can't seem to grasp the simplest concepts) is a must. There is no jury out on it - when a natty does all volume/pump training on a contest prep, his muscle is long gone. But I certainly agree with you that it doesnt change much for an enhanced bodybuilder.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

It never ceases to amaze me...

Actually, your posts never cease to amaze me...

Originally Posted by Ivan25

It's simple... Agree to disagree... I notice that there are some ppl in this thread who agree with me and others who don't...

As I reread this thread thinking I'm missing something, it turns out I'm not. Who in this thread is agreeing with you that "the jury is out" on

a) being 3-4% without joint pain
b) lifting heavy being debatable (which I will explain the term heavy since you can't grasp this)
c) on various joint supplements and their effectiveness

Besides JoeGo's thank you post, who here are you even talking about?

a) like I said, get that lean and then tell me you have no joint pain
b) heavy is OBVIOUSLY relative to the individual - I really thought you would have gotten that on your own. And I'm referring to sets done in the max strength rep range (typically 5 reps or less - a range of 4-5 is appropriate here).
c) this entire thread has people posting POSITIVE results from the use of several different joint care supplements.

So who is agreeing with you on any of those in here?

Originally Posted by Ivan25

It's as simple as being an extremist on one end and not on another... I will never take it to the level you do or care to...

You can pretend all you want Ivan. You have been wanting to get your pro card for how long now? And I can dig up all your old threads you made when you first started into this - it's either the judging was bad, or you hit a sticking point and don't know how to get leaner, or whatever. You made several attmepts to explain that you were going to do whatever it took to get you a pro card - so don't sit there and act like you aren't trying to take it to the level you need to in order to do so.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

I don't lift heavy year round.. And could care less to do so...

Which is your personal preference (depending on what you mean by heavy since you cant grasp the simplest things).

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Lifting heavy? Hmmm.. Define it by rep range... I'm referencing research in my rationale AND personal experience... Lifting at 75-80% of 1-RM is supported as a rep intensity that will preserve muscle...

Well welcome to the world of "gee, no kidding"...what exactly did you think I meant by lifting heavy? All singles at 100% Are you TRYING to turn this thread into somekind of personal thing against me with your little big man syndrome? Maybe it's my fault for not spelling it out for you...

LIFTING HEAVY = 4-6 rep range at 100% intensity (not 100% of 1RM)

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Not to mention there is research showing occlusion training also provides a stimulus for muscle growth..

This is a new area being researched, and I agree with using occlusion training in certain situations (such as deload periods), but I would not use it for prep.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

So there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.

Yes there are, but just because there are many different ways to get tot he same place, that does NOT change the basic fundamentals.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

So lifting heavy is relative... 405 for reps maybe heavy for you, but 315 for reps maybe heavy for me... We weigh different bodyweights.... So lifting heavy should be based on relative strength and what challenges that individual...

I am literally amazed that you thought I meant anything other than this when i said "lifting heavy". LOL

Originally Posted by Ivan25

So I'm happy attaining my little muscle mass I do have... Granted I haven't attained leanness like you, but experience I do have nonetheless... And I am not THAT far away from getting to 3-4%...

Please leave your "me against you" comments out of this. When I pointed out your state of leanness in my previous post - it was stating a fact that was proving the point I was trying to make. I can't help it if you are insecure and can't take it in context for the topic we are discussing. It wasn't personal.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

If your'e basing this 3-4% bodyfat pain on lubrication, cite me some studies then rather than your experience... 3-4% is essential fat... Isn't joint lubrication ESSENTIAL fat? I didn't know joint lubricant properties were subcutaneous fat stores as well...

It's not that the joints have ZERO fat, it's that the joints have a much smaller amount and that is where the pain is resulting from, and THAT is why joint care supplements that help lubricate joints make them feel much better when on a contest prep cut. THAT is the point of this thread.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

Hey, I will be open to agree provided the research or science-supported evidence... I think my explanation of having less subcutaneous body fat around the limb thus reducing leverage is a factor as well in joint pain... Not to mention, lifting HEAVY...

I never said that it wasn't a factor (one factor among many mind you). It was a good explanation.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

We just have a dichotomy in thought-process... I could care less about being BIG and ripped.. I'll be small and ripped, but with a v-taper that is impressive... I'll turn pro on my own right and compete as pro... And place maybe 10th as a pro, but still being a pro...

Everything depends entirely what your ultimate goals are OBVIOUSLY. Not everybody has the same ambitions. And again, that is NOT what this thread is about. If all you want is a pro card and could care less about actually competing as a pro, then so be it. That's your personal preference.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

And the benefits of fish oil? All the supplements you take (joint supps) like cissus and stuff, NO RESEARCH to date... Nothing peer-reviewed or in reputable journals OR reputable sources (experts, etc).... Fish oil is prominent in that the omega-3 fatty acids serve more benefits than just joint health... Heart health as well... So it's a reputable supplement... So the jury is still out on the other supplements.

LOL Again I apologize I didn't spell it out for you! I'm not arguing the benefits of fish oil at all. I'm on fish oil ALL YEAR ROUND and I have stated several times in all of my journals (and to all of my clients) that fish oil is THE most underrated supplement out there. Period.

When you said this:

"I've taken glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin... No real noticeable effects... I do take fish oil and believe that works...."

I was asking why you take fish oil since it is also a supplement you don't notice or feel working either - just like the joint care supplements when you are taking them and don't have a pain issue. I assume that you are taking them because of the research behind them and not because you notice it working. When you stated that sentence with it all together, you made it sound like you can take fish oil without noticing anything but not joint care supplements. That's all I was saying about that.

Originally Posted by Ivan25

As far as my legs not being dialed in, wrong... It's a matter of opinion AND I apparently have a problem holding my legs hard in pics (via on-stage)... Define dialed in legs??? As far as I know, it's simple... And basic muscle anatomy should prove this... The main muscles we see from the front side of the legs are quads (vastus lat, med, rectus femoris [split down the middle]), with the sartorius wrapping on the inside of the quads... The advanced level would be having cross-striations in the quads...

Back side... Split hamstrings showing just 3 heads (bicep femoris and semi-tend and memb)... Advanced levels would be striated glutes...

Not that difficult from a viewing standpoint...

Now my level... My only levels of leanness never attained---> striated glutes, quads, triceps AND split hams... That's it... Everything else has been dialed in..

So to me, not that far away.

P.S. All I got to say is my new avatar is--> Hi I'm batman...

You've got some pretty big insecurity issues Ivan - that's all I'm going to say. I can dig up the threads of all your posts, whining, complaining with the placings, the judging, why you didn't win your pro card, you got robbed, this and that - and when I came into that one particular thread and tried to explain to you the truth of the situation, it sounded like you understood. You were lean where EVERYBODY gets lean that diets for any period of time. You placed well because there was NO competition at that show. The back of the legs is what I'm referring to as "dialed in" as that's what usually comes in last - the judges and everyone else knows this. Are you far away? No. A lot of people aren't far away, and you are no different...you just haven't gotten there yet.

Why you've decided to act like a child and turn this into a "me against you" thread along with all your cocky "i'm batman" praises like you have some god-like physique is beyond me. This sport is usally very humbling to people, but I can see that all it's done to you is make you more insecure and angry at both what you don't have and the people who already have it. I feel sorry for you.

Sporto

[imccarthy]

It's great having you around Tommy... that's all I can say. You seem to put people into line... you'd be a good moderator, actually.