Persecution of Baha'is in Iran

[Bahai.Lifter]

You guys have made some good points. I would like to just add: As a Baha'i, believing in the divine origin of the world religions, I believe the religions were exemplary in their own respective dispensations. The Baha'i Faith teaches that God continually reveals His Will for a particular day and age at successive points in history. This process began as far back as the days of Adam. During the religion's dispensation, it contributes to the welfare of society. For example, no one can deny that Islam made major contributions to not only the sciences and arts, but even gave us civilization, so to speak. Christianity likewise had its own "golden age." However, as time passed and after (very roughly) a thousand years or so, God again spoke to mankind via another Divine Messenger. This Messenger revealed the Will of God for the new times; the social teachings had to be "updated," so to speak, to adapt to the change in times. Baha'u'llah tells us:

"Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require."

Thus, the older teachings -- while good for their own time periods -- are in many cases not compatible with the new times. Just as we see in history religion contributing to the good of society, after a certain point -- when the teachings were no longer effective -- we begin to see the opposite. We recall the Crusades, for examples, where the Franks set out on their "armed pilgrimage" (as it was called back then) to kill and plunder fellow (!) Christians they crossed paths with, and also Jews and Muslims; and of course, we remember that the Inquisition was done in the name of a religion.

The question is: Did the divine teachings of the religions themselves cause these injustices to occur? No. Certain followers of the religions (e.g., clergy), more interested in promoting their own worldly lusts than anything spiritual, sought to pervert God's Word in the promotion of their carnal desires. Like the Qur'an itself says, "They pervert the text of the Word of God" (4:45).

The Word of God was similarly perverted to persecute all the Prophets of old by the former generation. The persecutors of the old Faith arose to reject the new Prophet -- Who was clearly prophesied in their own Texts -- in order to keep their power, and preserve their self-interests. For example, Baha'u'llah writes:

"Consider the former generations. Witness how every time the Day Star of Divine bounty hath shed the light of His Revelation upon the world, the people of His Day have arisen against Him, and repudiated His truth. They who were regarded as the leaders of men have invariably striven to hinder their followers from turning unto Him Who is the Ocean of God's limitless bounty.

"Behold how the people, as a result of the verdict pronounced by the divines of His age, have cast Abraham, the Friend of God, into fire; how Moses, He Who held converse with the Almighty, was denounced as liar and slanderer. Reflect how Jesus, the Spirit of God, was, notwithstanding His extreme meekness and perfect tender-heartedness, treated by His enemies. So fierce was the opposition which He, the Essence of Being and Lord of the visible and invisible, had to face, that He had nowhere to lay His head. He wandered continually from place to place, deprived of a permanent abode. . . .

"Thou hast known how grievously the Prophets of God, His Messengers and Chosen Ones, have been afflicted. Meditate a while on the motive and reason which have been responsible for such a persecution. At no time, in no Dispensation, have the Prophets of God escaped the blasphemy of their enemies, the cruelty of their oppressors, the denunciation of the learned of their age, who appeared in the guise of uprightness and piety. Day and night they passed through such agonies as none can ever measure, except the knowledge of the one true God, exalted be His glory."

And now regarding Himself and His Own Revelation, and the sufferings and tribulations which arose by this same phenomenon, Baha'u'llah continues:

"Consider this wronged One [Baha'u'llah]. Though the clearest proofs attest the truth of His Cause; though the prophecies He, in an unmistakable language, hath made have been fulfilled; though, in spite of His not being accounted among the learned, His being unschooled and inexperienced in the disputations current among the divines, He hath rained upon men the showers of His manifold and Divinely-inspired knowledge; yet, behold how this generation hath rejected His authority, and rebelled against Him! He hath, during the greater part of His life, been sore-tried in the clutches of His enemies. His sufferings have now reached their culmination in this afflictive Prison, into which His oppressors have so unjustly thrown Him. God grant that, with a penetrating vision and radiant heart, thou mayest observe the things that have come to pass and are now happening, and, pondering them in thine heart, mayest recognize that which most men have, in this Day, failed to perceive. Please God, He may enable thee to inhale the sweet fragrance of His Day, to partake of the limitless effusions of His grace, to quaff thy fill, hrough His gracious favor, from the most great Ocean that surgeth in this Day in the name of the Ancient King, and to remain firm and immovable as the mountain in His Cause."

May all of us on this forum receive mercy from our Lord, and be led to the straight path!

"From the sweet-scented streams of Thine eternity give me to drink, O my God, and of the fruits of the tree of Thy being enable me to taste, O my Hope! From the crystal springs of Thy love suffer me to quaff, O my Glory, and beneath the shadow of Thine everlasting providence let me abide, O my Light! Within the meadows of Thy nearness, before Thy presence, make me able to roam, O my Beloved, and at the right hand of the throne of Thy mercy, seat me, O my Desire! From the fragrant breezes of Thy joy let a breath pass over me, O my Goal, and into the heights of the paradise of Thy reality let me gain admission, O my Adored One! To the melodies of the dove of Thy oneness suffer me to hearken, O Resplendent One, and through the spirit of Thy power and Thy might quicken me, O my Provider! In the spirit of Thy love keep me steadfast, O my Succorer, and in the path of Thy good pleasure set firm my steps, O my Maker! Within the garden of Thine immortality, before Thy countenance, let me abide for ever, O Thou Who art merciful unto me, and upon the seat of Thy glory stablish me, O Thou Who art my Possessor! To the heaven of Thy loving-kindness lift me up, O my Quickener, and unto the Daystar of Thy guidance lead me, O Thou my Attractor! Before the revelations of Thine invisible spirit summon me to be present, O Thou Who art my Origin and my Highest Wish, and unto the essence of the fragrance of Thy beauty, which Thou wilt manifest, cause me to return, O Thou Who art my God!

"Potent art Thou to do what pleaseth Thee. Thou art, verily, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, the All-Highest." --Baha'u'llah


***
Source of quotes:
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah: http://bahai-library.com/writings/ba.../contents.html

Baha'i Prayers:
http://bahai-library.com/compilations/prayers/

[Bahai.Lifter]

Update on the situation:

http://news.bahai.org/story/681

UN General Assembly expresses ?deep concern? about human rights in Iran
18 December 2008
UNITED NATIONS ? The United Nations General Assembly today adopted a resolution expressing ?deep concern at serious human rights violations? in Iran.

The resolution, which passed by a vote of 69 to 54, specifically criticized Iran?s use of torture, the high incidence of executions, the ?violent repression? of women, and ?increasing discrimination? against Bah???s, Christians, Jews, Sufis, Sunni Muslims, and other minorities.

?Iran should reflect upon and glean from this vote that, sadly, countries from Finland to Fiji are more concerned about the rights of ordinary Iranian citizens than the Iranian government itself,? said Bani Dugal, the principal representative of the Bah?'? International Community to the United Nations.

?The General Assembly is the world?s most representative body, and the fact that this represents the 21st such resolution expressing concern over human rights in Iran since 1985 should leave no doubt that this is not about ?politicization,? as the Iranian government likes to say, but a genuine concern for universally acknowledged rights.

?Regretfully, despite outcries like this and the recent report of the UN secretary general, the human rights situation in Iran grows worse each day. Nevertheless, we remain hopeful that expressions of concern like this will cause Iranian leaders to rethink their stance on human rights in respect for the rights that have been so widely accepted by other nations,? she said.

Ms. Dugal also noted that Iran comes up for Universal Periodic Review in the Human Rights Council in 2010. Iran should take note of the international community?s concern and make all efforts to improve its deplorable human rights record.

Today?s resolution was put forward by Canada and co-sponsored by more than 40 other countries. It also specifically takes note of the recent report by Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, issued in October, which also expressed concern about human rights in Iran, and calls on Iran to address the ?substantive concerns? voiced therein.

In that report, Mr. Ban said ?there are a number of serious impediments to the full protection of human rights? in Iran. It likewise expressed concerns over torture, executions, the rights of women, and discrimination against minorities. [To read the full report, go to: http://www.un.org/Docs/journal/asp/ws.asp?m=a/63/459]

The resolution asks the secretary general to prepare an update on Iran?s progress over the coming year. It also calls on Iran to ?end the harassment, intimidation and persecution of political opponents and human rights defenders, including by releasing persons imprisoned arbitrarily or on the basis of their political views? and to ?uphold due process of law rights and to end impunity for human rights violations.?

The resolution takes particular note of attacks on Bah???s, noting ?increasing evidence of efforts by the State to identify and monitor Bah???s, preventing members of the Bah??? Faith from attending university and from sustaining themselves economically, and the arrest and detention of seven Bah??? leaders without charge or access to legal representation.?

Ms. Dugal noted that there are at least 20 Bah???s currently in jail, including the national Bah??? leadership of seven members who were arrested last March and May and are being held in Evin prison without charges. More than 100 others have been arrested and released on bail over the last four years as part of a stepped-up government effort at persecution.

[~Serpent~]

(Continued from above)

"The Best-Beloved is come. In His right hand is the sealed Wine of His name. Happy is the man that turneth unto Him, and drinketh his fill, and exclaimeth: 'Praise be to Thee, O Revealer of the signs of God!' By the righteousness of the Almighty! Every hidden thing hath been manifested through the power of truth. All the favors of God have been sent down, as a token of His grace. The waters of everlasting life have, in their fullness, been proffered unto men. Every single cup hath been borne round by the hand of the Well-Beloved. Draw near, and tarry not, though it be for one short moment. . . .

"Rejoice with exceeding gladness, O people of Baha, as ye call to remembrance the Day of supreme felicity, the Day whereon the Tongue of the Ancient of Days hath spoken, as He departed from His House, proceeding to the Spot from which He shed upon the whole of creation the splendors of His name, the All-Merciful. God is Our witness. Were We to reveal the hidden secrets of that Day, all they that dwell on earth and in the heavens would swoon away and die, except such as will be preserved by God, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

"Such is the inebriating effect of the words of God upon Him Who is the Revealer of His undoubted proofs, that His Pen can move no longer. With these words He concludeth His Tablet: 'No God is there but Me, the Most Exalted, the Most Powerful, the Most Excellent, the All-Knowing.'"


For most of His youth, and all of His adult life, Baha'u'llah was a Prisoner. After being a Prisoner of Iran, He then became a Prisoner of the Ottoman Empire. He was exiled to Constantinople, Adrianople, and finally the notorious 'Akka -- a penal colony reserved for the worst criminal offenders. The streets of this walled city were filthy, the houses were deserted, and birds flying over the city would fall down dead. In 1870, while engaged in prayer on the roof of the prison, Baha'u'llah's 22-year-old son Mirza Mihdi (the "Purest Branch") fell through a skylight. He dropped on to a wooden crate, and his ribs were pierced. For twenty-two hours, Baha'u'llah's son lay dying in pain. While dying, Mirza Mihdi asked Baha'u'llah that his life be offered up as a ransom for those who did not recognize their Beloved. Regarding this occasion, Baha'u'llah writes:

"I have, O my Lord, offered up that which Thou hast given Me, that Thy servants may be quickened, and all that dwell on earth be united."

During His exiles, Baha'u'llah revealed many Tablets -- including Tablets to the kings and rulers of the earth -- informing them of His Mission. He also made many prophetic statements and warnings, many of which came to pass during His lifetime. For example, in "The Most Holy Book," revealed around 1873, Baha'u'llah prophesies the downfall of the Ottoman Empire -- that its "outward slendour ... shall soon perish":

"O people of Constantinople! Lo, from your midst We hear the baleful hooting of the owl. Hath the drunkenness of passion laid hold upon you, or is it that ye are sunk in heedlessness? O Spot that art situate on the shores of the two seas! The throne of tyranny hath, verily, been established upon thee, and the flame of hatred hath been kindled within thy bosom, in such wise that the Concourse on high and they who circle around the Exalted Throne have wailed and lamented. We behold in thee the foolish ruling over the wise, and darkness vaunting itself against the light. Thou art indeed filled with manifest pride. Hath thine outward splendour made thee vainglorious? By Him Who is the Lord of mankind! It shall soon perish, and thy daughters and thy widows and all the kindreds that dwell within thee shall lament. Thus informeth thee the All-Knowing, the All-Wise." (Par. 89)

And in the very next paragraph, Baha'u'llah prophesies the First World War:

"O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory."

The "banks of the Rhine" is a reference to the Franco-Prussian War (1870?71), which "shall have another turn"; and Berlin will lament because of the harsh treaty imposed on it after Germany's defeat in WWI.


Another famous prophesy of Baha'u'llah which was fulfilled concerns an Epistle He wrote to the French Emperor Napoleon III. This is the second of two epistles Baha'u'llah addressed to Napoleon, where He starts off the letter by saying:

"O King of Paris! Tell the priests to ring the bells no longer. By God, the True One! The Most Mighty Bell hath appeared in the form of Him Who is the Most Great Name, and the fingers of the Will of Thy Lord, the Most Exalted, the Most High, toll it out in the heaven of Immortality in His name, the All-Glorious."

Napoleon, upon receiving the first epistle, is said to have tossed it behind him, saying about Baha'u'llah: "If this man is God, I am two Gods." Responding to what Napoleon had did, Baha'u'llah writes in the second epistle:

"For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God in this, the Straight Path."

So, as a punishment for casting behind his back this epistle, Baha'u'llah says that in accord with divine chastisement, Napoleon will lose his empire, unless he makes amends by helping Baha'u'llah's Cause. Needless to say, Napoleon did not do that. A year or so after Baha'u'llah's second Epistle, at the Battle of Sedan (1870), Napoleon was dethroned and then exiled. This is a similar situation to the case of an Epistle addressed to Sultan Abdu'l-'Aziz (Sultan of the Ottoman Empire), where Baha'u'llah promised the Sultan -- if he helped Baha'u'llah's Cause -- to "exalt thee to so eminent a position that the designs of no man on the whole earth can ever touch or hurt thee." However, the Sultan did not heed Baha'u'llah's Words and continued to persecute the Baha'is; hence Baha'u'llah's declaration that the Ottoman Empire would fall, land would be taken away from them, and the Caliphate would be abolished.

Baha'u'llah, in His Most Holy Book, also addresses the "Rulers of America and the Presidents of the Republics therein," informs them that "the Promised One hath appeared," and to "take ye advantage of the Day of God." The Baha'i Writings prophesy that America will, in the future, lead the entire world spiritually. The Baha'i Writings indeed write about America's glorious future, and prayers are also revealed for America (as for other places as well).

***

Baha'u'llah passed away in 1892. In His Last Will and Testament, He appointed His Son 'Abdu'l-Baha to lead the Baha'i community. 'Abdu'l-Baha (1844-1921) in turn, appointed His grandson Shoghi Effendi as Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith is now guided by its Supreme Body, the Universal House of Justice, situated in Haifa, Israel, on Mount Carmel. The Universal House of Justice is elected every five years by secret ballot and no campaigning (a distinguishing feature of the Baha'i system is that it is non-partisan, and electioneering is forbidden; voting is done by secret ballot). This makes the Baha'i Faith the first Religion ever to have protected itself effectively against people successfully causing schism within the Faith. There are also smaller governing bodies: countries have National Spiritual Assemblies, and cities have Local Spiritual Assemblies. For more info: www.bahai.org

***

"O CHILDREN OF NEGLIGENCE AND PASSION! Ye have suffered My enemy to enter My house and have cast out My friend, for ye have enshrined the love of another than Me in your hearts. Give ear to the sayings of the Friend and turn towards His paradise. Worldly friends, seeking their own good, appear to love one the other, whereas the true Friend hath loved and doth love you for your own sakes; indeed He hath suffered for your guidance countless afflictions. Be not disloyal to such a Friend, nay rather hasten unto Him. Such is the daystar of the word of truth and faithfulness, that hath dawned above the horizon of the pen of the Lord of all names. Open your ears that ye may hearken unto the word of God, the Help in peril, the Self-existent." --Baha'u'llah

Greetings BahaiLifter!

Sorry for my late response. I was busy and did not have the time to fully read all the quotes that you posted. I'd like to thank you for putting in the time to write all of that out.

They are very fascinating, and a lot of them ring of universal truths. Love being a central theme to much of what I read. Indeed how ironic is it, that those people who have professed universal love throughout the ages, have been some of the most persecuted individuals, and considered the biggest threats to established powers of the world!

The hardships that Bahauallah went through are testimony of this. But we are often reminded that, religion often is an incredible political power, which if big enough will not be ignored within the political sphere..hence the persecution. People like Ghandi, for example, were incredibly influencial politically, yet their message and ideas were spiritual / philosophical.

The prophecies you listed are quite intriguing as well. What is one to make of these kinds of prophecies? It is difficult to say, but within religion, prophecies play a big role as proof in the validity of the messenger who preaches and claims divine origin. Personally I think prophecies can often be misinterpreted, especially considering the general vagueness which they are often worded. I place more value in the spiritual messages of the NOW, moreso than possible futures. However, that said, they certainly are interesting, as are Christian and Islamic prophecies...yet both are used, unfortunately, as fear mongering and obesessive anticipation for apocalyptic futures. Unchangeable divine predestinies, or self fufilling prophecies...who knows?

I am not sure exactly what the statement "He was the Promised One of all ages", implies. If that means he is the LAST prophet for mankind, as Mohammad is to Islam? I am wary of statements that claim a finality in divine revelations and prophets. I am more comfortable with the idea that there can be prophets, holy men, etc for all ages and generations. Perhaps not as significant as some, but nevertheless, teachers who are capable of guiding and reinterpreting doctrines or scriptures that might have become stagnant and corrupt throughout time.

Anyway, it is very interesting to read about Bahai faith, and I am grateful that you are sharing this. It only gives me a broader perspective and insight into a religion which I am not that familiar with.

Regards.

[JibJab]

I see.

I think the underlying issue is our disagreement about whether a better government is secular government or a theocratic government. In your eyes and the eyes of most westerners, secular democracy is preferred, whereas in the eyes of Muslims, theocratic democracy is preferred, and in a theocratic democracy as you may know, religion and politics are not separate from one another.

Nonetheless, thanks for stating your opinion.

Location: Canada.

Strong enjoyment of the fruits of secular democracy.

For the record, a "democracy" where all the candidates are selected by the supreme leader and his council is more accurately called a "dictatorship".

[BJplayer]

Correct.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4025983

However, in an Islamic society, various groups and cults that are linked to and financed by foreign powers and directly oppose the Islamic constitution of the country, which may in turn lead to societal discord, disunity, chaos and destabilization are arrested and punished.

Just more proof how weak and fukced up Islam is since you have to murder those who dont swallow that crap. The more you guys justify the unjustifiable by using the Koran, the more convinced I am that Islam is inherently evil. Just because these people believe differently, that gives Muslims the right to harm them? Different belief systems are a direct assault on the Iranian government? Give me a break. That is religious facism and should never be allowed as an excuse to harm people. The Koran is ****.

[BJplayer]

It is not the mind that is being restricted to think, rather it is the public action as a result of the mind that must be regulated and controlled.

The regulations are set in place to stop people from thinking, they are in place to protect the society from discord and destabilization.

In other words, a person has been given the gift of free will to think that Islamic laws are false and useless, however, within an Islamic society, whose constitution is based on Islamic laws, he cannot publicly break the laws, just because he thinks they are useless and false.

This is a lie. The laws are in place to control peoples thoughts. Islam cannot stand without coercion. The difference between laws controlling an action like say speeding, and laws that make it ok to harm someone for their religous beliefs, are not comparable. Muslims feel it is perfectly fine to discriminate and even murder non-Muslims. In Iran, the Bahia are not doing anything other than believing in their particular faith and are suffering for it. Perhaps we in the west should treat muslims the way they treat others....

[~Serpent~]

Yet they continually want to destroy Israel and Islam doesn't believe that Jesus is the son of God. This is what I don't get about this Islamic synergy with Abrahmic faiths. They either agree with them or they don't.

To me all three are made up of the same pre-Jewish stories and legends.

From what I gather, the only reason why Christians and Jews are not persecuted to the degree of Bahais is that, they preexisted Islam, and are the spiritual hereditary line of the Abrahamic faiths. Bahai faith seems to be considered more of a threat, because it claims continuation, whereas Islam claims it is the final religion in the Abrahamic line.

But in the end it really doesn't matter, because any Muslim who chooses to convert to Christianity or Judaism are apostates and should be executed. So even though they will not persecute people who are already Christian or Jew, they certainly do not have much more respect for those faiths, as it is just as much a blasphemy for one to convert into them.

[Bahai.Lifter]

Greetings BahaiLifter!

Sorry for my late response. I was busy and did not have the time to fully read all the quotes that you posted. I'd like to thank you for putting in the time to write all of that out.

No problem, my friend. If I can say this, it is quite refreshing to see someone as open-minded as yourself investigating religion. An admirable quality.

They are very fascinating, and a lot of them ring of universal truths. Love being a central theme to much of what I read. Indeed how ironic is it, that those people who have professed universal love throughout the ages, have been some of the most persecuted individuals, and considered the biggest threats to established powers of the world!

Yes, that is unfortunate. But these are the ways of God: a Chosen One sent Who reveals a new Message is always persecuted. As you know, this phenomenon has been around since the days of Abraham. Though the purpose of all these Divine Teachers is to create harmony, yet there is always fierce opposition against changing the old ways -- even if the old ways are no longer working (hence the need for newer and updated spiritual guidance).

The prophecies you listed are quite intriguing as well. What is one to make of these kinds of prophecies? It is difficult to say, but within religion, prophecies play a big role as proof in the validity of the messenger who preaches and claims divine origin. Personally I think prophecies can often be misinterpreted, especially considering the general vagueness which they are often worded.

Yes, just look at Jesus Christ. He did not "literally" fulfill the Jewish prophesies, as there was no literal king with a sword who overthrew the Romans in Christ. But He did, Christians would agree, fulfill them if you interpret the prophesies spiritually. Similarly, when the expected Promised Figure of religions returns, will we see the mountains reduced to dust, stars hitting the earth, resurrected bodies walking around, and messianic figures fighting a battle with a Satan? What would be the purpose in God doing all that, besides the fact that if certain of those events did happen, then the earth would be destroyed (e.g., stars hitting it). I think you are on the right track, because we see in religious history how prophesies (and their misinterpretation or corruption) could act as a barrier or veil between the followers of a former religion and the newer religion.

I am not sure exactly what the statement "He was the Promised One of all ages", implies. If that means he is the LAST prophet for mankind, as Mohammad is to Islam? I am wary of statements that claim a finality in divine revelations and prophets. I am more comfortable with the idea that there can be prophets, holy men, etc for all ages and generations. Perhaps not as significant as some, but nevertheless, teachers who are capable of guiding and reinterpreting doctrines or scriptures that might have become stagnant and corrupt throughout time.

You would not be blamed for being weary of statements about finality. A central Baha'i principle is "Progressive Revelation," i.e., Revelation continues to reach humanity via "Manifestations of God" (Baha'i term for Prophets, Messengers, etc.). Baha'u'llah says that "the Grace of God can never cease from flowing," and therefore God will not abandon us. (He always fulfills His end of the Covenant!). So Baha'u'llah is not saying that He is the last. In fact, Baha'u'llah says:

"Every one of them [Manifestations of God] is a mirror of God, reflecting naught else but His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory, if ye will understand. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being, if ye be not devoid of understanding. No one hath ever escaped them, neither are they to be hindered from achieving their purpose. These Mirrors will everlastingly succeed each other, and will continue to reflect the light of the Ancient of Days. They that reflect their glory will, in like manner, continue to exist for evermore, for the Grace of God can never cease from flowing. This is a truth that none can disprove." (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 74)

The Qur'an says that Muhammad is the "Seal of the Prophets." Does this mean Revelation will cease, and God has abandoned humanity to itself? No, it certainly does not. In Baha'i terms, it means that the "Prophetic Cycle" -- which was inaugurated by Adam -- has ceased with the Seal of the Prophets. The Baha'i cycle now in turn has inaugurated the "Cycle of Fulfillment" (since 1844). The Prophetic Cycle has ended because the function of the Prophets was to prophesy the end of days (and reveal Teachings which would prepare humanity for that Day), when all of mankind would be gathered together. So when Baha'u'llah says He is the Promised One of all ages, what is indicated is that He symbolically fulfills the prophesies of all the former religions. It doesn't mean there will be no more Manifestations of God, or whatnot. Revelation will always continue.

Anyway, it is very interesting to read about Bahai faith, and I am grateful that you are sharing this. It only gives me a broader perspective and insight into a religion which I am not that familiar with.

I am more than happy to help and to try to answer any of your questions about the Baha'i Faith. BTW, just to let you know, a great way to quickly learn the essentials about the Baha'i Faith is via Baha'i study circles. No matter where you live there is probably one nearby. It is actually not uncommon that most people comprising a Baha'i study circle are in fact non-Baha'is. Since there is no clergy in the Baha'i Faith -- and independent investigation of Truth is encouraged -- you will never feel pressured to convert if you go to Baha'i gatherings. It is a very relaxed and comfortable atmosphere, and you can meet people such as yourself who take an interest in learning about religions.

I hope my responses have been to your satisfaction so far my friend.


*********

Just a quote exhorting us to steadfastness in belief in God:

"Say: Rejoice not in the things ye possess; tonight they are yours, tomorrow others will possess them. Thus warneth you He Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed. Say: Can ye claim that what ye own is lasting or secure? Nay! By Myself, the All-Merciful. The days of your life flee away as a breath of wind, and all your pomp and glory shall be folded up as were the pomp and glory of those gone before you. Reflect, O people! What hath become of your bygone days, your lost centuries? Happy the days that have been consecrated to the remembrance of God, and blessed the hours which have been spent in praise of Him Who is the All-Wise. By My life! Neither the pomp of the mighty, nor the wealth of the rich, nor even the ascendancy of the ungodly will endure. All will perish, at a word from Him. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the All-Compelling, the Almighty. What advantage is there in the earthly things which men possess? That which shall profit them, they have utterly neglected. Erelong, they will awake from their slumber, and find themselves unable to obtain that which hath escaped them in the days of their Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised. Did they but know it, they would renounce their all, that their names may be mentioned before His throne. They, verily, are accounted among the dead." --Baha'u'llah

[TriNitrotoluene]

Just more proof how weak and fukced up Islam is since you have to murder those who dont swallow that crap. The more you guys justify the unjustifiable by using the Koran, the more convinced I am that Islam is inherently evil. Just because these people believe differently, that gives Muslims the right to harm them? Different belief systems are a direct assault on the Iranian government? Give me a break. That is religious facism and should never be allowed as an excuse to harm people. The Koran is ****.

May i ask you which religion you affiliate yourself with?

[Weightaholic]

Trance, I ask this of you because you are possibly the only person on this forum who would or could answer honesty.


Do you, upon hearing of things like this, sometimes wonder whether you follow a religion that teaches rules, bu no ethics?

[Bahai.Lifter]

From: http://news.bahai.org/story/682

Baha'is call for reopening of human rights center in Iran"
23 December 2008

GENEVA -- The Baha'i International Community today expressed grave concern over the closing by the Iranian government of Shirin Ebadi's Defenders of Human Rights Center in Tehran and called for its reopening.

"The closing of Mrs. Ebadi's office is a blow to human rights for the whole of Iran," said Diane Ala'i, a representative of the Baha'i International Community to the United Nations in Geneva.

"The spokesperson of Iran's Ministry of Foreign Affairs has indicated that the reason behind the closure was that the Center has no license. But it would be a simple matter to give them one. Otherwise, the fact that the Iranian government would shut down the office of its most famous human rights defender, who is Iran's only winner of the Nobel Peace Prize and the first Muslim woman so recognized, can only be perceived by the world at large as further evidence that the government has no regard for rights and freedoms.

"Mrs. Ebadi and her colleagues are engaged in defending numerous individuals and groups in Iran, and the closure of the Center will certainly interfere with their efforts and impede the adequate legal representation that they are committed to providing," she said.

Among those being defended by Mrs. Ebadi and her organization are the seven Baha'i leaders who are currently being held without charge in Evin prison in Tehran. The seven were arrested in March and May in an ominous sweep that was reminiscent of when Baha'i leaders in the 1980s were rounded up and executed.

"Regardless of the attempts against human rights defenders in Iran, Mrs. Ebadi and her colleagues are courageously pursuing their work. For the good of the country, we call upon the Iranian authorities to resolve the administrative issue, and to allow the Centre to reopen immediately," said Ms. Ala'i.

[Bahai.Lifter]

From: http://www.iranpresswatch.org/

Baha'is Under Widespread Attack in Semnan
December 23, 2008

"I have been ordered to do so. Please believe me." "Please pardon what I'm doing." These are what agents of the Ministry of Intelligence sometimes say when they attack Baha'i homes ? this time, a widespread and well-coordinated attack on Baha'i homes in Semnan [in northern Iran].

The attack started at 7:15 A.M. on Monday, 15 December 2008, and it targeted 20 different Baha'i families. (The first reports incorrectly mentioned that only 12 Baha'i families were assaulted.) As many as 12 officers were involved in some of the raids on these homes.

The agents arrived at Baha'i homes in private cars with Tehran license plates. In some instances, the attackers refused to show official orders for these raids and searches.

Upon arriving, agents first collected all mobile phones and disconnected telephone lines, so that news of the raid would not be shared with others. They even prevented some of the Baha'i children from going to school.

The search of the Baha'i homes and confiscation of personal property continued until about 11:30 in the morning. They searched through family pictures, books, mobile phones, computers, satellite equipment and in some cases, checkbooks, bank accounts and property titles. When the home of Behfar Khanjani was raided, the agents even confiscated all the cash and property titles in his security box, plus his work permits and licenses.

After a thorough search and close interview of every household member, confiscating the said property and preparing a video of the house and its contents, the agents arrested Mrs. Sahba Rezvani, who was the only Baha'i detained during this attack. At 7:30 in the morning, she was apprehended by two officers of the Intelligence Ministry ? a man and a woman wearing a face-cover and a chador. Mrs. Rezvani was taken to the prison facility of Semnan's Intelligence offices. Even though the agents promised to release her about noon of the same day, no news has been received that she has been allowed to leave.img_0919

It appears that plans against the Baha'is of Semnan were set in motion four months ago. During the past several months, work permit applications for 5 Baha'is of Semnan were rejected although they had completed all administrative steps and adhered to all regulations..

Moreover, two weeks prior to this latest raid, the Ministry of Intelligence issued instructions to all Baha'i shop-owners of Semnan that they must dismiss their Muslim employees, as (they were told) no Muslim can take orders from a Baha'i supervisor or business-owner.

In addition, a week before this latest attack, many mullahs went to all the schools in Semnan so that they could spread misinformation and lies about the Baha'is ? and this was considered as yet another sign that a carefully devised plan against the Baha'is was underway. The governmental agencies coordinated these recent raids with widespread propaganda to warp students' views of the Baha'is, coupled with exerting great pressure on Baha'i school children.

During same days, the shop of Siamak Iqanian, one of the khademin [a coordinating group for the Baha'i community of each town ? translator] in Semnan was defaced by graffiti on the wall, which said "This place is ritually impure!" However, this action caused many questions (about the truth of the Baha'i Faith) to be raised by visitors to the store, which resulted in the perpetrators cleaning their graffiti after only a few days.

Another action against the Baha'i community of this city was a seminar under the title Sayih Shum ["sinister shadow"] by the organization Rahpouyan Vesal. This seminar took place on 25 November 2008 at the invitation of the Society of the Devotees of Fatemeh Zahra with the objective "to investigate and critique the relationship of the wayward sect [i.e. Baha'is] with Zionism." This session was held at the Halal Ahmar lecture room of Sanan. The speaker ? and in reality, the initiator of this anti-Baha'i organization ? was Muhammad Anjavinejad, who denigrated and derided the Baha'is in his presentation. They had specifically brought in many teachers, religious instructors and invited many youth to this event.

A broad look at these activities makes it clear that a widespread and coordinated plan [against the Baha'is] is underway in many cities of Iran, which is being implemented in stages.

It is noteworthy that many agents involved with the recent raids said that they were completely unaware why they were conducting these attacks and offered as an excuse the fact that they were instructed to do so ? or if they were completely ignorant about their conduct, they thought they could confiscate the US dollars that they imagined were being sent in support of Zionist activities. One of the agents was even ashamed over the inhumane raid of Baha'i homes and in Turkish stated, "For God's sake, do not think that Islam is perpetrating these acts!"

His worry is well placed. Woe betide the day when on the decadent body of politics and power the garment of religion is placed, and when in the name of religion they would kill, steal, rob and lie. What then can we think of that religion?

[~Serpent~]

Yes, that is unfortunate. But these are the ways of God: a Chosen One sent Who reveals a new Message is always persecuted. As you know, this phenomenon has been around since the days of Abraham. Though the purpose of all these Divine Teachers is to create harmony, yet there is always fierce opposition against changing the old ways -- even if the old ways are no longer working (hence the need for newer and updated spiritual guidance).

This can be said of political leaders as well. Any influencial person who triggers revolution, have been the targets of persecution and assasination. But again, religion, spirituality and philosophy are closely interwined with politics. Mohammad, for example brought forth what was/is undoubtedly a powerful political force and ideology as well as religious. Modern political figures such as Martin Luther King, had religious/spiritual overtones to his political movement. Artists such as John Lenon were very politically influencial as well.

Yes, just look at Jesus Christ. He did not "literally" fulfill the Jewish prophesies, as there was no literal king with a sword who overthrew the Romans in Christ. But He did, Christians would agree, fulfill them if you interpret the prophesies spiritually. Similarly, when the expected Promised Figure of religions returns, will we see the mountains reduced to dust, stars hitting the earth, resurrected bodies walking around, and messianic figures fighting a battle with a Satan? What would be the purpose in God doing all that, besides the fact that if certain of those events did happen, then the earth would be destroyed (e.g., stars hitting it). I think you are on the right track, because we see in religious history how prophesies (and their misinterpretation or corruption) could act as a barrier or veil between the followers of a former religion and the newer religion.

True. Often scriptures which were meant as parables are interpreted as literal. So it is a tricky subject. One that perhaps has been often used as a tool of control and fear, as well as fatalism. But like most things in religion, it is something that is founded on faith.

You would not be blamed for being weary of statements about finality. A central Baha'i principle is "Progressive Revelation," i.e., Revelation continues to reach humanity via "Manifestations of God" (Baha'i term for Prophets, Messengers, etc.). Baha'u'llah says that "the Grace of God can never cease from flowing," and therefore God will not abandon us. (He always fulfills His end of the Covenant!). So Baha'u'llah is not saying that He is the last. In fact, Baha'u'llah says:

"Every one of them [Manifestations of God] is a mirror of God, reflecting naught else but His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory, if ye will understand. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being, if ye be not devoid of understanding. No one hath ever escaped them, neither are they to be hindered from achieving their purpose. These Mirrors will everlastingly succeed each other, and will continue to reflect the light of the Ancient of Days. They that reflect their glory will, in like manner, continue to exist for evermore, for the Grace of God can never cease from flowing. This is a truth that none can disprove." (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 74)

The Qur'an says that Muhammad is the "Seal of the Prophets." Does this mean Revelation will cease, and God has abandoned humanity to itself? No, it certainly does not. In Baha'i terms, it means that the "Prophetic Cycle" -- which was inaugurated by Adam -- has ceased with the Seal of the Prophets. The Baha'i cycle now in turn has inaugurated the "Cycle of Fulfillment" (since 1844). The Prophetic Cycle has ended because the function of the Prophets was to prophesy the end of days (and reveal Teachings which would prepare humanity for that Day), when all of mankind would be gathered together. So when Baha'u'llah says He is the Promised One of all ages, what is indicated is that He symbolically fulfills the prophesies of all the former religions. It doesn't mean there will be no more Manifestations of God, or whatnot. Revelation will always continue.

The idea of "Progressive Revelation", was something I found intriguing, even when I first heard of the Bahai faith a long time back. Within the Abrahamic faiths, I found it to be quite bizzarre and almost too open, with the idea of accepting prophets that spanned different religions. This is considering the general rigidity of orthodox religions of the Abrahamic line. Now it is a concept that I would wholeheartedly agree with. That is, I think it is reasonable to believe that spiritual and religious teachers can be found in all cultures and all religions, and one must sift through the words to hopefully find an underlying universal teaching.

I am more than happy to help and to try to answer any of your questions about the Baha'i Faith. BTW, just to let you know, a great way to quickly learn the essentials about the Baha'i Faith is via Baha'i study circles. No matter where you live there is probably one nearby. It is actually not uncommon that most people comprising a Baha'i study circle are in fact non-Baha'is. Since there is no clergy in the Baha'i Faith -- and independent investigation of Truth is encouraged -- you will never feel pressured to convert if you go to Baha'i gatherings. It is a very relaxed and comfortable atmosphere, and you can meet people such as yourself who take an interest in learning about religions.

I hope my responses have been to your satisfaction so far my friend.

Actually, I did go to one many years back. It was through an Iranian Bahai I befriended. I was still in my teens, and had my own rigid thoughts about religion, so I could not fully appreciate where he was coming from. I remember we did discuss religion for hours, especially in relation to Christianity and the idea of progressive revelation.

Just a quote exhorting us to steadfastness in belief in God:

"Say: Rejoice not in the things ye possess; tonight they are yours, tomorrow others will possess them. Thus warneth you He Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed. Say: Can ye claim that what ye own is lasting or secure? Nay! By Myself, the All-Merciful. The days of your life flee away as a breath of wind, and all your pomp and glory shall be folded up as were the pomp and glory of those gone before you. Reflect, O people! What hath become of your bygone days, your lost centuries? Happy the days that have been consecrated to the remembrance of God, and blessed the hours which have been spent in praise of Him Who is the All-Wise. By My life! Neither the pomp of the mighty, nor the wealth of the rich, nor even the ascendancy of the ungodly will endure. All will perish, at a word from Him. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the All-Compelling, the Almighty. What advantage is there in the earthly things which men possess? That which shall profit them, they have utterly neglected. Erelong, they will awake from their slumber, and find themselves unable to obtain that which hath escaped them in the days of their Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised. Did they but know it, they would renounce their all, that their names may be mentioned before His throne. They, verily, are accounted among the dead." --Baha'u'llah

Your quote and it's attributes of God, similar in many ways to that of Islamic, Christian, and Judaic, made me think of Samyutta Nikaya, "Connected Discourses" or "Kindred Sayings" of Buddhist scripture:

"It is the end, without the outflows, the truth, that which is beyond, the subtle one, the hard to see, the unfading one, the stable one, the undecaying one, the invisible one, the taintless one, the peace, the deathless, the excellent one, the blissful one, the sanctuary, the destruction of thirst, the wonderful one, the supranormal one, the one free from calamities, the state of freedom from calamities, the freedom from suffering, the dispassion, the purity, the release, the non-attachment, the refuge, the ultimate shelter, the final protection, the secure."

[asiya-sparkles]

^^ I know it's futile to argue this with you, so I'm not going to turn this into a conversation, but just to rehash from an outsiders point of view; the societies that are dangerous are the ones that only endorse the opinion of the majority, because the opinion of the majority is just oppressive as a monarchy, since the opinion of the 51% will dominate over the opinions of the 49%. It's self-explanatory that Baha'is are going to have differing views than Muslims, and thus endorse a different kind of theocratic system. I know this doesn't matter in an Islamic republic, but I'm just saying.

sorry I simply cannot resist, sounds very much like you are talking about democracy here.

[Bahai.Lifter]

This can be said of political leaders as well. Any influencial person who triggers revolution, have been the targets of persecution and assasination. But again, religion, spirituality and philosophy are closely interwined with politics. Mohammad, for example brought forth what was/is undoubtedly a powerful political force and ideology as well as religious. Modern political figures such as Martin Luther King, had religious/spiritual overtones to his political movement. Artists such as John Lenon were very politically influencial as well.

That's true, but look at the Baha'i Faith itself. Baha'is must be non-partisan, and they must be loyal to their countries and well-wishers of their governments. Even in the case of Iran where they are persecuted and killed. Baha'is must refrain from interference in political matters in any way, shape, or form. And violence against other people is forbidden. So the standard is quite high. It isn't a "political" movement which possesses anything that could be justifiably considered at all threatening, or something that can be seen as leading to some sort of violent revolution or whatever.

So it is really different, in the case of the Baha'is, because they are the most peaceful and law abiding citizens. Nevertheless the Iranian government goes out of its way to demolish Baha'i cemeteries, destroy Baha'i structures, and kill Baha'is. Do young women teaching children virtues, good manners, and love of God pose a threat to the stability of a country? Or the other way around? Yet many Baha'is who were/are executed were harmless Baha'i women. Even Baha'is working with Muslims in purely humanitarian services have likewise been thrown into jail -- their purpose being to serve the underprivileged, as encouraged by their Religion.

Interestingly, the Iranian government at one point even wanted to destroy the Azadi Tower ("The Gateway to Iran") in Tehran after they found the architect was a Baha'i and the building involved Baha'i designs. But that is such a famous structure in Tehran and if they destroyed it, they'd have nothing left -- so it still stands, as you know. Baha'is have only contributed to the good and prosperity of a country. Just look at the Baha'i Centre on Mt. Carmel in Haifa, Israel.

But you are correct in your other points, for example, Muhammad's movement was very political. After all at one point He was the Governor of Medina. The ways of God in the past were perfect for their own respective times, but the Baha'i Faith brings new methods needed for new times. Indeed, the Baha'i Faith system calls for a change of hearts -- not force, as contention and discord are strongly forbidden in the Baha'i Faith and "independent investigation of truth" is encouraged.

[Bahai.Lifter]

"Iranian media attacks on Baha'is and Nobel Prize Winner Shirin Ebadi seek to stir 'irrational fears and prejudices'
12 August 2008

"NEW YORK -- Fraudulent claims in the Iranian news media about seven imprisoned Baha'i leaders and the efforts of Nobel Peace Prize winner Shirin Ebadi and others to defend them represent an effort by the government to prevent Baha'is from having adequate legal representation -- and also to stir up 'irrational fears and prejudices,' the Baha'i International Community said in a statement today.

"'Reports published in government-run news outlets point to an effort on the part of the authorities to use the mass media to spread accusations that the seven prisoners have engaged in subversive activities, and to continue to deprive these Baha'is from any access to legal counsel by maligning Mrs. Shirin Ebadi, the well-known Iranian human rights lawyer and Nobel Peace Prize winner who, together with her colleagues, has stated her readiness to defend the Baha'is,' said the statement.

"The statement, posted to the Baha'i International Community's United Nations Office Web site, responds to allegations that Mrs. Ebadi's daughter has become a Baha'i, that Baha'is are agents of Zionism, and that when Iranian Baha'is communicate with the Baha'i Faith's international governing body in Israel, it is somehow a 'conspiracy.'

"'The Iranian government seizes every means at its disposal to stigmatize the Baha'is and then, within the poisoned atmosphere it has itself created, when it wants to discredit someone, it asserts that the person is a Baha'i,' the statement said. 'Mrs. Ebadi is not the first individual upon whom this tactic has been used. As a lawyer, Mrs. Ebadi defends individuals and groups of many different backgrounds; this does not mean that she necessarily espouses their beliefs. What, then, is the state-sanctioned press trying to insinuate when it contends that her daughter is a Baha'i?'"

http://news.bahai.org/story/650

[~Serpent~]

That's true, but look at the Baha'i Faith itself. Baha'is must be non-partisan, and they must be loyal to their countries and well-wishers of their governments. Even in the case of Iran where they are persecuted and killed. Baha'is must refrain from interference in political matters in any way, shape, or form. And violence against other people is forbidden. So the standard is quite high. It isn't a "political" movement which possesses anything that could be justifiably considered at all threatening, or something that can be seen as leading to some sort of violent revolution or whatever.

So it is really different, in the case of the Baha'is, because they are the most peaceful and law abiding citizens. Nevertheless the Iranian government goes out of its way to demolish Baha'i cemeteries, destroy Baha'i structures, and kill Baha'is. Do young women teaching children virtues, good manners, and love of God pose a threat to the stability of a country? Or the other way around? Yet many Baha'is who were/are executed were harmless Baha'i women. Even Baha'is working with Muslims in purely humanitarian services have likewise been thrown into jail -- their purpose being to serve the underprivileged, as encouraged by their Religion.

That is very interesting. If the Bahai faith specifically teaches and encourages non interference and participation in political matters, why must they be considered and treated as a threat? It is completely illogical. As mentioned earlier, one can only suppose or guess that the very idea of a modern prophetic revelation in the Abrahamic line is considered such a blasphemy to Islam, that they consider it a threat moreso than any other religions, some of which may be very seperated against them, whereas Bahai's appear peaceful, encompasing and accepting.

It is interesting that you mention that within Bahai faith, violence against other people is forbidden, giving quite a different perspective as opposed to Islamic Jihad. I understand of course that Jihad has different meanings, nonetheless I'm pretty sure most Muslims here would agree that it also can mean literal war and bloodshed.

You mentioned in the past, that the highest concentration of Bahai's can be found in India. Do you know if Hindus, for example, are treated any worse or better in Iran than Bahai's?

Interestingly, the Iranian government at one point even wanted to destroy the Azadi Tower ("The Gateway to Iran") in Tehran after they found the architect was a Baha'i and the building involved Baha'i designs. But that is such a famous structure in Tehran and if they destroyed it, they'd have nothing left -- so it still stands, as you know. Baha'is have only contributed to the good and prosperity of a country. Just look at the Baha'i Centre on Mt. Carmel in Haifa, Israel.

But you are correct in your other points, for example, Muhammad's movement was very political. After all at one point He was the Governor of Medina. The ways of God in the past were perfect for their own respective times, but the Baha'i Faith brings new methods needed for new times. Indeed, the Baha'i Faith system calls for a change of hearts -- not force, as contention and discord are strongly forbidden in the Baha'i Faith and "independent investigation of truth" is encouraged.

I think it might be, that Mohammad was possibly the most important and powerful political force the arab world has ever known! No other man was able to unify all of the ME in the way he did. One cannot deny that religion was/is the most effective tool in accomplishing this feat.

I found a pic of Azadi Tower :

[Bahai.Lifter]

That is very interesting. If the Bahai faith specifically teaches and encourages non interference and participation in political matters, why must they be considered and treated as a threat? It is completely illogical.

Yes, and ever since the inception of the Baha'i Faith in 1844, all Baha'is had to do to escape imprisonment, torture, and death was to say that they were Muslim, or sign a paper stating that they recant their beliefs and are Muslim. Of course, dishonesty and lying are forbidden in the Baha'i Faith, so Baha'is don't recant under any circumstance. Related to that, Baha'i youth in Iran can't get into university because they won't lie and deny their Faith -- which is required of them to gain admittance into college.

Similarly, Baha'i citizens in Egypt currently are denied identification cards because of their religious affiliation.

And yes, the Baha'i Faith requires non-interference in political matters of any kind; for example, an American Baha'i is free to vote, but if he does he can't campaign/electioneer for a candidate or affiliate with any partisan group (e.g., Republican, Democrat, etc.), because those are all acts of partisanship -- and engaging in partisan politics is prohibited. Beside that, such actions would surely destroy the unity of the Baha'i Faith, and the whole Baha'i system is set up to ensure unity in all areas of life. The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Shoghi Effendi (http://info.bahai.org/guardian-of-the-bahai-faith.html), wrote:

"The attitude of the Baha'is must be two-fold, complete obedience to the government of the country they reside in, and no interference whatsoever in political matters or questions. . . . We are not the ones, as individual Baha'is, to judge our government as just or unjust -- for each believer would be sure to hold a different viewpoint, and within our own Baha'i fold a hotbed of dissension would spring up and destroy our unity. We must build up our own Baha'i system, and leave the faulty systems of the world to go their way. We cannot change them through becoming involved in them; on the contrary, they will destroy us." (Directives from the Guardian, p. 56)

Now to contrast, here is an example of the Baha'i system of voting: every year, Baha'is in every community -- say, the Baha'is of New York City -- gather together to vote for nine adult members in their community to serve on the "Local Spiritual Assembly" (e.g., the Local Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of New York City). The LSA oversees and is responsible for the community in its jurisdiction. Prayers are said before the vote, and voting is done in a prayerful attitude; votes are cast via secret ballot. Baha'is are to vote for nine members who they know well, and e.g., who have proven to possess mature experience, have upright characters, etc. There is no campaigning/electioneering whatsoever; that would result in disqualification if it happened (I have never seen it happen personally). So in the Baha'i system, some guy isn't there telling you what an honest and capable person he is, putting a show on, running commercials, advertising himself in the paper for you to vote for him, or whatever; you have to do choose individuals yourself based on your personal knowledge about them, in secret. During the year naturally you get to know the characters of other Baha'is, and based on that you decide who you want to vote for. This is how the Baha'i system works at the local, national, and international level (the Supreme Governing body of the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel, is in fact also elected by secret ballot).

As mentioned earlier, one can only suppose or guess that the very idea of a modern prophetic revelation in the Abrahamic line is considered such a blasphemy to Islam, that they consider it a threat moreso than any other religions, some of which may be very seperated against them, whereas Bahai's appear peaceful, encompasing and accepting.

Indeed, the Baha'i Faith itself teaches that the "Prophetic Cycle" has ended, and now we are living in the "Cycle of Fulfillment." But this is a topic which has not been well understood.

In Islam "Seal of the Prophets" is usually confused, or thought to mean, the total end of Revelation, that is, the belief that God won't give us any more laws or guidance. But I have studied Islam, including the Qur'an and hadith, and it is clear that another Revelation is anticipated in Islam. Islam does in fact teach that there will be another Revelation, even though individual Muslims may deny it personally. In fact, the Qur'an and hadith make it the duty of Muslims to engage in personal investigation of any such claim, e.g.:

"O Believers! If any bad man come to you with news, clear it up at once, lest through ignorance ye harm others, and speedily have to repent of what ye have done." (Qur'an 49:6)

But you can just look at Baha'i history and see that for the most part, that did not happen. (Of course, some investigated, e.g., the greatest Shi'i scholar of the time and high ranking clergy, Mirza Abu 'l-Fadl; and this highly respected personage subsequently converted to the Baha'i Faith -- and managed to convert others at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, "the chief centre of Arabic literature and Sunni Islamic learning in the world.") Many figures that persecuted Baha'u'llah and His followers, e.g. the Shah of Iran and the clergy, never even met Baha'u'llah face to face to "clear it up at once": they just sent out the orders for incarceration and execution!

It is interesting that you mention that within Bahai faith, violence against other people is forbidden, giving quite a different perspective as opposed to Islamic Jihad. I understand of course that Jihad has different meanings, nonetheless I'm pretty sure most Muslims here would agree that it also can mean literal war and bloodshed.

Muslims will usually cite a popular hadith where Muhammad identifies two types of Jihad: the greater jihad (vigilant control over one's carnal desires) and the lesser jihad (holy war). The very first law of Islam that Baha'u'llah annulled was holy war; of course, chastity and purity is still upheld.

The Baha'i standard is very high; forget about jihad, even something like striking children or another person is forbidden to the point that in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, or The Most Holy Book (the Baha'i book of Laws - http://bahai-library.com/writings/ba...das/aqdas.html), Baha'u'llah instructs that hitting someone will result in a fine (depending on the circumstance); Baha'u'llah says:

"The penalties for wounding or striking a person depend upon the severity of the injury; for each degree the Lord of Judgement hath prescribed a certain indemnity. He is, in truth, the Ordainer, the Mighty, the Most Exalted" (par. 56).

Of course, since there is no Baha'i rule -- e.g., no Baha'i government in effect -- the indemnity wouldn't apply now, nevertheless violence in all cases is forbidden. (Just some interesting facts: so far, the Queen of Romania was a Baha'i, and the King of Samoa -- who recently passed away -- was also a Baha'i. Even though the Baha'i Faith is in its nascent stages, many people are tuning to it; you wouldn't have known, but the man who did the score for the Passion of the Christ movie was a Baha'i!)

Many people and groups claim to be peaceful -- but the Baha'i Faith stresses independent investigation of truth, that is, you should find out for yourself what claims are true. Before I converted to the Baha'i Faith, I did so knowing that of everything I studied, they were the most peaceful group -- they really "walk the walk" instead of going around telling everyone how peaceful they are or whatever. The Baha'i Faith calls for action, not words; Baha'u'llah states: "Let deeds, not words, be your adorning." That is one of the aspects of the Baha'i Faith that really attracted me to it. And you can see for yourself from the Baha'i statutes and Teachings how these can lead to a more peaceful civilization.

You mentioned in the past, that the highest concentration of Bahai's can be found in India. Do you know if Hindus, for example, are treated any worse or better in Iran than Bahai's?

Yes, currently there over 2 million Baha'is in India, making India the country with the largest number of Baha'is. (The Baha'i Faith is well known in India and even many Hindus visit the Baha'i Temple; Baha'i places of worship are always open to the public. In fact, this is hearsay but I heard that not only is the Baha'i Lotus Temple more highly frequented than the Taj Mahal, but it is the most visited religious structure in the world.)

The situation of the Baha'is in Iran -- the country of its birth -- is the most dire of any country in the world. Baha'is are persecuted in every country under Islamic law to varying extents, for example I already mentioned that Baha'is are denied I.D. cards in Egypt (http://www.bahai.us/persecution-bahais-egypt), but also in other places like Saudi Arabia, etc. As far as I know, no non-Muslim country (e.g., Christian) persecutes/persecuted Baha'is to the same extent or even persecuted them at all really. I know, for example, that the Nazis didn't let Baha'is hold their meetings; or today, for example, job discrimination is a reality sometimes for Baha'is in the West (my dad lost some jobs, and tenure opportunities, teaching at Christian colleges for not being Christian) -- but obviously nothing as extreme as we see in the Middle East; it's apples and oranges, I think.

[Bahai.Lifter]

I think it might be, that Mohammad was possibly the most important and powerful political force the arab world has ever known! No other man was able to unify all of the ME in the way he did. One cannot deny that religion was/is the most effective tool in accomplishing this feat.

Indeed. He unified all the warring Arab tribes into one Faith. And with these tribes of Arabs, Islam spread quickly and eventually the Byzantines and Persians were overthrown. 1 in 5 people is Muslim, attesting to the power and potency of Muhammad's Revelation.

Unfortunately the Religion He built right upon His death became fragmented: into Sunnis ('Umar and Abu Bakr leading one party) and Shi'is (by Imam 'Ali). And of course there developed later on even greater fragmentation within those sects, and there are other groups as well. But the fact remains that His Religion did accomplish what it was supposed to accomplish; some of the greatest advances in human civilization -- indeed, civilization itself -- we owe to Islam. Unbiased binds, such as yours, do not look at the state of the followers of Islam today and draw conclusions on its origins based on that; Islam deserves credit for what it achieved. The system Muhammad instituted was perfect and worked for its time (like Christianity), but Baha'u'llah has now appeared and He has said that certain laws of Islam like Jihad, cutting off the hands of thieves -- you name it -- are no longer applicable in this day and age, in this stage of humanity's development; Baha'u'llah says that now is the Promised Day, and the time for the unification of the human race, and He has revealed Teachings and Laws toward that end.

I found a pic of Azadi Tower

Yes, it's a magnificent structure. The Baha'i who was the architect of the Azadi Tower was actually from a Jewish background. Imagine that!

Check out a couple of pictures of the Baha'i Lotus Temple in India:





Thanks for your comments and insights, BTW.

[BJplayer]

May i ask you which religion you affiliate yourself with?

I dont belong to any religion. But the more I read from people like Trance and Sk, who openly justify discrimination and violence against people who believe differently than themselves, the more I am convinced that Islam is inherently evil. Go back and read Trance's excuses for Iran suppressing any free thought. It is down right scary and barbaric. But he actually believes that the Iranian government should brutalize non-muslims, not for their actions, but for their beliefs. If this isnt a wake up call to how draconian, weak, and immoral Islam truly is, then I dont know what is.

[Bahai.Lifter]

http://news.bahai.org/story/688

Six Baha'is arrested in Iran; one worked for Shirin Ebadi's rights organizations

15 January 2009

GENEVA - At least six Baha'is were arrested in Iran yesterday, including a woman who worked at human rights organizations connected with Nobel prize winner Shirin Ebadi.

According to reports received from Iran, the six were arrested after government security agents raided the homes of at least 11 Baha'is. During the raids, they also confiscated Baha'i books and other items, such as computers and photographs.

Among those arrested was Jinous Sobhani, who worked as an assistant for the Organization for Defending Mine Victims and also for the Defenders of Human Rights Center. Both were founded by Mrs. Ebadi.

In an interview with CNN, Mrs. Ebadi said today that Ms. Sobhani had been laid off from both organizations after government agents raided Mrs. Ebadi's offices and shut them down in December.

While some reports indicate that more than six Baha'is were arrested yesterday in Tehran, those confirmed so far include Ms. Sobhani, Mr. Shahrokh Taef, Mr. Didar Raoufi, Mr. Payam Aghsani and Mr. Aziz Samandari. Mr. Golshan Sobhani was also arrested but was released a few hours later. It is unclear whether he is related to Ms. Sobhani.

"The arrest of these individuals reflects not only the grave situation facing Baha'is in Iran but also the overall human rights situation there," said Diane Ala'i, a representative of the Baha'i International Community to the United Nations in Geneva.

"As far as we know, all of these people were arrested primarily because they are Baha'is," said Ms. Ala'i.

But she confirmed the fact that Ms. Sobhani worked for the two organizations founded by Mrs. Ebadi.

"The connection of Ms. Sobhani to the work of Mrs. Ebadi's organizations points to the gravity of the situation in Iran, where the government seems intent on stifling any expression of the importance of human rights or religious freedom," said Ms. Ala'i.

In December, the Baha'i International Community condemned the closing of Mrs. Ebadi's Defenders of Human Rights Center in Tehran and called for its reopening. (See earlier story.)

[~Serpent~]

Yes, and ever since the inception of the Baha'i Faith in 1844, all Baha'is had to do to escape imprisonment, torture, and death was to say that they were Muslim, or sign a paper stating that they recant their beliefs and are Muslim. Of course, dishonesty and lying are forbidden in the Baha'i Faith, so Baha'is don't recant under any circumstance. Related to that, Baha'i youth in Iran can't get into university because they won't lie and deny their Faith -- which is required of them to gain admittance into college.

Similarly, Baha'i citizens in Egypt currently are denied identification cards because of their religious affiliation.

And yes, the Baha'i Faith requires non-interference in political matters of any kind; for example, an American Baha'i is free to vote, but if he does he can't campaign/electioneer for a candidate or affiliate with any partisan group (e.g., Republican, Democrat, etc.), because those are all acts of partisanship -- and engaging in partisan politics is prohibited. Beside that, such actions would surely destroy the unity of the Baha'i Faith, and the whole Baha'i system is set up to ensure unity in all areas of life. The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Shoghi Effendi (http://info.bahai.org/guardian-of-the-bahai-faith.html), wrote:

"The attitude of the Baha'is must be two-fold, complete obedience to the government of the country they reside in, and no interference whatsoever in political matters or questions. . . . We are not the ones, as individual Baha'is, to judge our government as just or unjust -- for each believer would be sure to hold a different viewpoint, and within our own Baha'i fold a hotbed of dissension would spring up and destroy our unity. We must build up our own Baha'i system, and leave the faulty systems of the world to go their way. We cannot change them through becoming involved in them; on the contrary, they will destroy us." (Directives from the Guardian, p. 56)

Now to contrast, here is an example of the Baha'i system of voting: every year, Baha'is in every community -- say, the Baha'is of New York City -- gather together to vote for nine adult members in their community to serve on the "Local Spiritual Assembly" (e.g., the Local Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of New York City). The LSA oversees and is responsible for the community in its jurisdiction. Prayers are said before the vote, and voting is done in a prayerful attitude; votes are cast via secret ballot. Baha'is are to vote for nine members who they know well, and e.g., who have proven to possess mature experience, have upright characters, etc. There is no campaigning/electioneering whatsoever; that would result in disqualification if it happened (I have never seen it happen personally). So in the Baha'i system, some guy isn't there telling you what an honest and capable person he is, putting a show on, running commercials, advertising himself in the paper for you to vote for him, or whatever; you have to do choose individuals yourself based on your personal knowledge about them, in secret. During the year naturally you get to know the characters of other Baha'is, and based on that you decide who you want to vote for. This is how the Baha'i system works at the local, national, and international level (the Supreme Governing body of the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel, is in fact also elected by secret ballot).

This is quite incredible. Not only does it reflect a noble code of conduct on behalf of the Bahai religion, but it shows how hypocritical and oppressive some Muslim governments are to treat a religious group which adheres to political non-interference in such a way. How insecure can these governments be to treat people who are of no political threat to their institutions? There is no explanation or reasoning for this.

Indeed, the Baha'i Faith itself teaches that the "Prophetic Cycle" has ended, and now we are living in the "Cycle of Fulfillment." But this is a topic which has not been well understood.

In Islam "Seal of the Prophets" is usually confused, or thought to mean, the total end of Revelation, that is, the belief that God won't give us any more laws or guidance. But I have studied Islam, including the Qur'an and hadith, and it is clear that another Revelation is anticipated in Islam. Islam does in fact teach that there will be another Revelation, even though individual Muslims may deny it personally. In fact, the Qur'an and hadith make it the duty of Muslims to engage in personal investigation of any such claim, e.g.:

"O Believers! If any bad man come to you with news, clear it up at once, lest through ignorance ye harm others, and speedily have to repent of what ye have done." (Qur'an 49:6)

But you can just look at Baha'i history and see that for the most part, that did not happen. (Of course, some investigated, e.g., the greatest Shi'i scholar of the time and high ranking clergy, Mirza Abu 'l-Fadl; and this highly respected personage subsequently converted to the Baha'i Faith -- and managed to convert others at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, "the chief centre of Arabic literature and Sunni Islamic learning in the world.") Many figures that persecuted Baha'u'llah and His followers, e.g. the Shah of Iran and the clergy, never even met Baha'u'llah face to face to "clear it up at once": they just sent out the orders for incarceration and execution!

It is apparent that the Koran quote you just posted is not considered of much value, by the fact that most Muslims adamantly believe that all prophecy and revelation ended with the prophet of Islam. Anyone who were to preach or reveal any new teachings, proclaiming divine revelation, would be considered an heretic, false prophet, or at worst demonic. Indeed, many Christians adhere to this belief, and likewise consider the prophet of Islam as such.

It wouldn't be inaccurate to say that any such progressive revelation, would be considered a threat, only to those who might doubt there own dogmas. Otherwise why the need to kill and imprison those whom are of no threat? If what they say is untrue, it should not affect their beliefs in anyway.

What is interesting, however, is the fact that Islam does anticipate a new revelation and prophet, that is, none other than Jesus himself. Since it will be Jesus, soley who will fulfill everything that Muslims believe in. So it is taught in Islam, for when Jesus returns, he is believed to proclaim the Islamic truth for the whole world. So, indeed they do await a future revelation.

will address the other points you raise in due time,

blessings.

[~Serpent~]

Muslims will usually cite a popular hadith where Muhammad identifies two types of Jihad: the greater jihad (vigilant control over one's carnal desires) and the lesser jihad (holy war). The very first law of Islam that Baha'u'llah annulled was holy war; of course, chastity and purity is still upheld.

The Baha'i standard is very high; forget about jihad, even something like striking children or another person is forbidden to the point that in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, or The Most Holy Book (the Baha'i book of Laws - http://bahai-library.com/writings/ba...das/aqdas.html), Baha'u'llah instructs that hitting someone will result in a fine (depending on the circumstance); Baha'u'llah says:

"The penalties for wounding or striking a person depend upon the severity of the injury; for each degree the Lord of Judgement hath prescribed a certain indemnity. He is, in truth, the Ordainer, the Mighty, the Most Exalted" (par. 56).

Of course, since there is no Baha'i rule -- e.g., no Baha'i government in effect -- the indemnity wouldn't apply now, nevertheless violence in all cases is forbidden. (Just some interesting facts: so far, the Queen of Romania was a Baha'i, and the King of Samoa -- who recently passed away -- was also a Baha'i. Even though the Baha'i Faith is in its nascent stages, many people are tuning to it; you wouldn't have known, but the man who did the score for the Passion of the Christ movie was a Baha'i!)

Many people and groups claim to be peaceful -- but the Baha'i Faith stresses independent investigation of truth, that is, you should find out for yourself what claims are true. Before I converted to the Baha'i Faith, I did so knowing that of everything I studied, they were the most peaceful group -- they really "walk the walk" instead of going around telling everyone how peaceful they are or whatever. The Baha'i Faith calls for action, not words; Baha'u'llah states: "Let deeds, not words, be your adorning." That is one of the aspects of the Baha'i Faith that really attracted me to it. And you can see for yourself from the Baha'i statutes and Teachings how these can lead to a more peaceful civilization.

I think it is interesting that you studied the Koran and Hadiths before converting to Bahai. Were you technically a Muslim before your conversion?

I could see many Christians adopting these kinds of teachings of non-violence, perhaps feeling that they resonate more with what Christ stood for. It does echo many similarities. It is just unfortunate that in the past, the Christian Church abused what those spiritual teachings stood for and used them as a front for political agendas. So, the Bahai teachings of
political non-interference addresses this issue in a clear way, which makes it quite unique.

Yes, currently there over 2 million Baha'is in India, making India the country with the largest number of Baha'is. (The Baha'i Faith is well known in India and even many Hindus visit the Baha'i Temple; Baha'i places of worship are always open to the public. In fact, this is hearsay but I heard that not only is the Baha'i Lotus Temple more highly frequented than the Taj Mahal, but it is the most visited religious structure in the world.)

The situation of the Baha'is in Iran -- the country of its birth -- is the most dire of any country in the world. Baha'is are persecuted in every country under Islamic law to varying extents, for example I already mentioned that Baha'is are denied I.D. cards in Egypt (http://www.bahai.us/persecution-bahais-egypt), but also in other places like Saudi Arabia, etc. As far as I know, no non-Muslim country (e.g., Christian) persecutes/persecuted Baha'is to the same extent or even persecuted them at all really. I know, for example, that the Nazis didn't let Baha'is hold their meetings; or today, for example, job discrimination is a reality sometimes for Baha'is in the West (my dad lost some jobs, and tenure opportunities, teaching at Christian colleges for not being Christian) -- but obviously nothing as extreme as we see in the Middle East; it's apples and oranges, I think.

I wonder how they are treated in countries like Syria or even Pakistan? So I guess in Iran, Baha'is are treated worse than other pagans, such as Hindus, Buddhists, etc?


It takes courage to adhere to a religious law, which states that one cannot deny their beliefs (lie) under any circumstances, even if it were to avoid unnessasary confrontation. Throughout history, many people would adopt a religion, on the surface, just to avoid persecution because of the state adopting that religion's dogma in the extreme sense. We see this in Christianity as well as Islam. Many pagans were executed for their beliefs, hence to avoid confrontation would be Christians or Muslims on the surface, but something else underneath. This obviously would be unacceptable in Bahai faith, but because of these "smaller sins" (quite acceptable conduct in many traditions), their traditions were able to survive the destruction of dogmatic religious cleansing.

[Chook Legs]

We actually had two women come into work the other day who were Baha'i. They seemed like really nice people. I remember them saying "dont worry we are not muslims". They also said they were Persian not iranian.

[BJplayer]

Why do we get dozens of threads per day on the oppression of the Palestinians but not a peep out of the muslims here when muslims are doing the oppressing of other people? Strong hypocrites!

[Weightaholic]

Why do we get dozens of threads per day on the oppression of the Palestinians but not a peep out of the muslims here when muslims are doing the oppressing of other people? Strong hypocrites!

You've noticed that too?

[Dr CROHN]

??
Would you care to explain?

Shia law isn't legalised barbarianism? This is what you are suggesting, am I correct?

[~Serpent~]

Indeed. He unified all the warring Arab tribes into one Faith. And with these tribes of Arabs, Islam spread quickly and eventually the Byzantines and Persians were overthrown. 1 in 5 people is Muslim, attesting to the power and potency of Muhammad's Revelation.

Unfortunately the Religion He built right upon His death became fragmented: into Sunnis ('Umar and Abu Bakr leading one party) and Shi'is (by Imam 'Ali). And of course there developed later on even greater fragmentation within those sects, and there are other groups as well. But the fact remains that His Religion did accomplish what it was supposed to accomplish; some of the greatest advances in human civilization -- indeed, civilization itself -- we owe to Islam. Unbiased binds, such as yours, do not look at the state of the followers of Islam today and draw conclusions on its origins based on that; Islam deserves credit for what it achieved. The system Muhammad instituted was perfect and worked for its time (like Christianity), but Baha'u'llah has now appeared and He has said that certain laws of Islam like Jihad, cutting off the hands of thieves -- you name it -- are no longer applicable in this day and age, in this stage of humanity's development; Baha'u'llah says that now is the Promised Day, and the time for the unification of the human race, and He has revealed Teachings and Laws toward that end.

I agree with you. There is no denying the profound impact the prophet of Islam has had on the ME, and the world in general. And you're right, Islam is in no way as homogenized as some would like to believe. The division amongst Islam, is manifested by the many sects which exist within it. Some might say, that even if every non-Muslim were to disappear off the face of the earth, the remaining Muslims would inevitably war amongst themselves because of this deep often overlooked division. It is only because Muslims have common enemies, such as the Jews, Christians, Atheists or Pagans, that they are distracted from this nagging fact.

Also, even though I acknowledge that Islam had its heyday of scientific development and human civilization, I would not give it all the credit as it oft claims as its own. One cannot forget that, like most great civilizations, theirs' were a legacy of knowledge which came before. It is a well known fact that the Arabs learned much from the wisdom that was accumulated in the great Alexandria. One cannot forget that the greatest advances in human civilizations existed in far forgotten ancient antiquity. Forgotten and covered in the sands of time, yet alive through those civilization which borrowed heavily from them.

Yes, it's a magnificent structure. The Baha'i who was the architect of the Azadi Tower was actually from a Jewish background. Imagine that!

Check out a couple of pictures of the Baha'i Lotus Temple in India:





Thanks for your comments and insights, BTW.

That is beautiful architecture. The "lotus" theme is quite holistic and spiritual.

And thank you for your insights into the Baha'i religion. I think many here will benefit from knowing about this rather lesser known faith, and what it has to offer spiritually.

[illriginalized]

Isn't that the faith that believes that all religions are as one?

I actually respect them... I have similar views about all the prophets from all the religions.

[~Serpent~]

I dont belong to any religion. But the more I read from people like Trance and Sk, who openly justify discrimination and violence against people who believe differently than themselves, the more I am convinced that Islam is inherently evil. Go back and read Trance's excuses for Iran suppressing any free thought. It is down right scary and barbaric. But he actually believes that the Iranian government should brutalize non-muslims, not for their actions, but for their beliefs. If this isnt a wake up call to how draconian, weak, and immoral Islam truly is, then I dont know what is.

Until people like SK or Trance acknowledge this kind of hypocrisy, no one will take their words seriously concerning oppression against Muslims. If they haven't figured this out by now, they never will.