Persecution of Baha'is in Iran

[Bahai.Lifter]

OFFICIAL Baha'i websites:

www.bahai.us (Baha'is of U.S.)
www.bahai.org
www.bahaullah.org (About Baha'u'llah, Founder of the Baha'i Faith)

*** United States Congress: Iran's persecution of the Baha'is is "the crime of the century." ***

Dear Friends:

As we all know, the religious freedom that we take for granted is unfortunately lacking in many parts of the world. The current persecution of Baha'is in the Islamic Republic of Iran is a case in point. Briefly, who are the Baha'is?

A quick introduction to the Baha'i Faith: it is a religion that was founded in the mid-1800s, which teaches the oneness of God, oneness of religion, equality of men and women, and independent investigation of truth, among others. The aim of the Baha'i Faith -- officially the second most geographically diffused world religion -- is to establish world unity, to promote concord among peoples of all creeds, persuasions, and ethnicities. Since the Faith's inception, over 20,000 Baha'is in Iran have been brutally tortured and martyred at the hands of the Islamic government and clergy.

You may have heard about the disturbing situation on the news, or from some other source, but recently oppression of Baha'is in Iran has intensified (http://iran.bahai.us).

In response, the U.S. House of Representatives recently passed a resolution condemning Iran's current "genocide" of the Baha'is (H. RES. 1008); the resolution denounces Iran's state-sponsored persecution of the members of the Baha'i Faith. Rep. Mark Kirk (IL-10) said: "This is government-sponsored persecution. And we in the Congress should not be silent as Iran sets up the mechanism to ethnically cleanse its Baha'i minority, totaling over 250,000 human beings." Iran's oppression of the Baha'is, which in Congress was called "the crime of the century," does indeed deserve our attention and concern. You can watch Congressman Kirk speaking in Congress here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwaglgNjYgs

Here are just a few examples of the current persecution: Baha'is are being banned from attending universities -- those Baha'is already enrolled who are identified are kicked out; Baha'i children are being prevented from attending school; acts of arson against Baha'i households and property is increasing; threats such as "jihad" and murder are being made against Baha'is from many sources; Baha'i cemeteries are being set on fire and destroyed; Baha'is are being arrested without charge, and torture and executions are still in force.

The oppression of Iranian Baha'is, as stated in Congress, is state-sponsored. Secret documents from the Iranian government have been found; these documents say that "their [Baha'i] progress and development shall be blocked" and "employment shall be refused to persons identifying themselves as Baha'is" (http://info.bahai.org/article-1-8-3-14.html). Further, since the Islamic government deems Baha'is as "apostates," Baha'is can legally be killed for their beliefs.

If you find these crimes against humanity committed by Iran distressing, and would like to voice your concern -- particularly about Baha'is being denied higher education -- please visit the following page, which offers suggested ways of helping: http://iran.bahai.us/support-bahai-students

Below is a link to a video of the Iranian president at a U.N. press conference, where he is being questioned about the persecution of the Baha'is in Iran. He responds by saying that the Baha'i Faith is not a religion, stands up, and before he leaves, threatens -- not very indirectly -- the Baha'is, saying in Persian: "God willing come to Iran and we will see you all [Baha'is] there." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV2qZtB8W3c

It should be mentioned that Iran certainly is not the only country that persecutes Baha'is: religious oppression against Baha'is is also found in other countries under Islamic law. For example, in Egypt the government policy is that the Baha'i Faith is not a religion and therefore Baha'is are not allowed to have state identification cards. As you can imagine, this leaves Egyptian Baha'is in a vulnerable situation. As another example, in June three Baha'is in Yemen were arrested, and they are facing the possibility of being deported to Iran, to face possible imprisoned and torture. A fourth Baha'i may be deported to Iraq.

Thank you in advance to those who will kindly spread awareness of the current persecution of Iran's Baha'is, especially about the Baha'i students being denied higher education. These are fellow human beings, so you do not have to be any particular religion (or even religious) to be concerned. There is even a website started by "Muslim interfaith activists" called The Muslim Network for Baha'i Rights (http://www.bahairights.org), so even Muslims on BodySpace could speak out against this injustice. Thank you for reading this and helping out!

*********
--Links to YouTube videos--
* Overview of Iran's past and current cultural genocide of Baha'is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhUNf8nVpCM
* Popular (and powerful) music video from 1980s by Doug Cameron about the martyrdom of a teenage girl for being a Baha'i: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ-UxEbuPag

[Enso]

Damn. That is too bad. I have lots of respect for you guys. It's not surprising though since according to Baha'i Muhammad is not seen any different than any other of God's messengers and Shia Law in the Middle East is basically legalized barbarianism it seems.

Such matters are why separation of church and state and religious freedom are so important for the well-being of a nation and all of it's people.

[Existing_86]

Damn. That is too bad. I have lots of respect for you guys. It's not surprising though since according to Baha'i Muhammad is not seen any different than any other of God's messengers and Shia Law in the Middle East is basically legalized barbarianism it seems.

Based on their persecution, I can understand what you're saying. But be advised, the Sunnis have a long history of persecuting Shiites...

From Umar and the caliphate in Damascus, which was moved from Mecca, to the banning of all things deemed heresy within the Shia faith.

[TranceNRG]

...and Shia Law in the Middle East is basically legalized barbarianism it seems.

??
Would you care to explain?
I do not wish to defend the Iranian regime, however, I am wondering as an impartial reader and a critical thinker, have you read the other side of the story, i.e. the Iranian side? or are they always considered the guilty ones without the need to look into history or anything else related?

The following is for example just one website, from the non-bahai perspective.
Bahai Awareness

Allegations of Baha'i involvement with other powers

The resistance stems from a variety of Baha'i teachings which challenge traditional Islamic belief, including principles that call into question the need for a priesthood, and the entire Shi'i ecclesiastical structure.

...

89% of Iranians adhere to the Twelver school of the sect of Shi'a Islam.

...

The Bab claimed he was the Imam Mahdi and thus he had equal status to the Islamic prophet Muhammad with the power, which he exercised, to abrogate the final provisions of Islamic law

...

Baha'u'llah, a Bab who claimed to be the one foretold by the Bab, claimed a similar station for himself in 1863 as a Manifestation of God.... and founded what later came to be known as the Baha'i Faith

The principles in Baha'u'llah's writings dealt with themes that challenged Shii Islamic doctrines, including the finality of the prophet-hood of Muhammad, the need for a priesthood, and also the entire Shii ecclesiastical structure.

[Weightaholic]

"There is no compulsion in religion." Qur'an 2:256

[TranceNRG]

"There is no compulsion in religion." Qur'an 2:256

Correct.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4025983

However, in an Islamic society, various groups and cults that are linked to and financed by foreign powers and directly oppose the Islamic constitution of the country, which may in turn lead to societal discord, disunity, chaos and destabilization are arrested and punished.

[MantisShrimp]

The orthodox majority always oppresses the esoteric minority. Welcome to the mechanics of human anthropology. That's why it's important to keep your religion occult.

[MantisShrimp]

Correct.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4025983

However, in an Islamic society, various groups and cults that are linked to and financed by foreign powers and directly oppose the Islamic constitution of the country, which may in turn lead to societal discord, disunity, chaos and destabilization are arrested and punished.

weak excuse for orthodox mobthink IMO
The mob mind must be actively fought by evolved cultures...even America
Where the mob mind is winning

[TranceNRG]

weak excuse for orthodox mobthink IMO
The mob mind must be actively fought by evolved cultures...even America
Where the mob mind is winning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...rities_in_Iran

How must this "mobthink" be fought against? by permitting every group and cult that opposes the fundamental constitution of the country to freely and openly cause discord and disunity in the society via undermining the constitution and via undermining the basic religious tenets of the religious majority?

The root of the issue isn't intolerance, it's protecting the society, whose constitution is based on Islam.

Cults and groups that undermine the fundamental constitution of a society with the help of foreign enemies cannot be ignored under the guise of "religious tolerance."

[Beatitude]

^^ I know it's futile to argue this with you, so I'm not going to turn this into a conversation, but just to rehash from an outsiders point of view; the societies that are dangerous are the ones that only endorse the opinion of the majority, because the opinion of the majority is just oppressive as a monarchy, since the opinion of the 51% will dominate over the opinions of the 49%. It's self-explanatory that Baha'is are going to have differing views than Muslims, and thus endorse a different kind of theocratic system. I know this doesn't matter in an Islamic republic, but I'm just saying.

[Weightaholic]

Correct.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4025983

However, in an Islamic society, various groups and cults that are linked to and financed by foreign powers and directly oppose the Islamic constitution of the country, which may in turn lead to societal discord, disunity, chaos and destabilization are arrested and punished.

"There is no compulsion in religion." Qur'an 2:256

...

[TranceNRG]

^^ I know it's futile to argue this with you, so I'm not going to turn this into a conversation, but just to rehash from an outsiders point of view; the societies that are dangerous are the ones that only endorse the opinion of the majority, because the opinion of the majority is just oppressive as a monarchy, since the opinion of the 51% will dominate over the opinions of the 49%. It's self-explanatory that Baha'is are going to have differing views than Muslims, and thus endorse a different kind of theocratic system. I know this doesn't matter in an Islamic republic, but I'm just saying.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=271

[leafs43]

Cmon guys, we all know Iran sh!ts lollipops and roses.

Their government is perfect as it is an extension of allah's will.

[Enso]

??
Would you care to explain?
I do not wish to defend the Iranian regime, however, I am wondering as an impartial reader and a critical thinker, have you read the other side of the story, i.e. the Iranian side? or are they always considered the guilty ones without the need to look into history or anything else related?

The following is for example just one website, from the non-bahai perspective.
Bahai Awareness

Allegations of Baha'i involvement with other powers

As a believer in free thought, anything enforced by law that seeks to suppress such, to me, is barbaric. Why does it matter that Baha'i challenges what Muhammad says? Sharia Law is a way for the Islamic majority to justify themselves in their oppressive efforts. And, I see over and over again acts of violence committed due to, and pardoned by, Sharia Law. That, to me, is very unfortunate.

I don't think they are justified in their actions to suppress them, even though their beliefs challenge traditional Islamic thought and they feel they will undermine their authority.

This is precisely the problem with not having a clear separation of church and state and a ruling theocracy. People are going to think, challenge, and express themselves accordingly in relation to all authority. It is in this way that the authority is kept true to itself and a pure purpose. If efforts are made to suppress the minds of men, then those in authority have become tainted with power and are abusing their authority. And, it is when authority is abused under the guise of justification that some of the most heinous acts can occur.

[TranceNRG]

As a believer in free thought, anything enforced by law that seeks to suppress such, to me, is barbaric. Why does it matter that Baha'i challenges what Muhammad says? Sharia Law is a way for the Islamic majority to justify themselves in their oppressive efforts. And, I see over and over again acts of violence committed due to, and pardoned by, Sharia Law. That, to me, is very unfortunate.

I don't think they are justified in their actions to suppress them, even though their beliefs challenge traditional Islamic thought and they feel they will undermine their authority.

This is precisely the problem with not having a clear separation of church and state and a ruling theocracy. People are going to think, challenge, and express themselves accordingly in relation to all authority. It is in this way that the authority is kept true to itself and a pure purpose. If efforts are made to suppress the minds of men, then those in authority have become tainted with power and are abusing their authority. And, it is when authority is abused under the guise of justification that some of the most heinous acts can occur.

I see.

I think the underlying issue is our disagreement about whether a better government is secular government or a theocratic government. In your eyes and the eyes of most westerners, secular democracy is preferred, whereas in the eyes of Muslims, theocratic democracy is preferred, and in a theocratic democracy as you may know, religion and politics are not separate from one another.

Nonetheless, thanks for stating your opinion.

[Enso]

I see.

I think the underlying issue is our disagreement about whether a better government is secular government or a theocratic government. In your eyes and the eyes of most westerners, secular democracy is preferred, whereas in the eyes of Muslims, theocratic democracy is preferred, and in a theocratic democracy as you may know, religion and politics are not separate from one another.

We have Christians here in the U.S. who would prefer a theocratic democracy no doubt. Such democracies would be fine if there was only one religion. However, there is not, and that is where the problem lies. Thus, we have what we have here. The ruling religious majority seeking to suppress and eliminate the religious minorities to protect their power and rule.

I respect the fact that Muslims think they have it right when it comes to religion (and I think there is much value in Islam), but like I stated, when people act under the guise of justification in relation to power without check (as what seems to happen in theocracies)...some of the most heinous acts can occur.

The equivalent here would be attempts by Republicans or Democrats to suppress or eliminate Libertarians and other minority parties with differing thoughts. One of the great things about democracy is freedom and the ability for one to think for themselves and choose accordingly without fear of persecution.

Nonetheless, thanks for stating your opinion.

Discussions are good

[George Carlinian]

The orthodox majority always oppresses the esoteric minority. Welcome to the mechanics of human anthropology. That's why it's important to keep your religion occult.

All majorities always oppresses all minorities, in religion, politics, you name it.

Power currupts- no one is exempt.

Regarding the Orthodox Christian minorities, many have fled out of fear of the revolution coming (1979) and many have brought their family since. The concensus is the same among them as it is many Christians who flee muslim countries- just be quiet and blend in and you'll be ok. Respect their ways by dressing, talking, and behaving in a manner to not stick out. People do the same thing when they come to America, for the same reasons.

[TranceNRG]

We have Christians here in the U.S. who would prefer a theocratic democracy no doubt. Such democracies would be fine if there was only one religion. However, there is not, and that is where the problem lies. Thus, we have what we have here. The ruling religious majority seeking to suppress and eliminate the religious minorities to protect their power and rule.

The case of Bahaiism cannot be compared to the case of Judaism and Christianity. Iran recognizes Judaism and Christianity as divine religions, and they in fact have members in the Iranian parliament to represent them.

However, Bahaiism emerged in the 18th century, with its own prophet, who changed many of Islamic laws. Thus, not only his prophethood is not recognized by Islam, his laws are in direct conflict with Islamic laws.

For this reason, unlike Christians, Jewish and Zoroastrian citizens of Iran, Bahais are not represented in the Islamic parliament of Iran.

I respect the fact that Muslims think they have it right when it comes to religion (and I think there is much value in Islam), but like I stated, when people act under the guise of justification in relation to power without check (as what seems to happen in theocracies)...some of the most heinous acts can occur.

I do not deny that criminals within all societies exist, who may in tuen commit heinous acts of discrimination against others.

However, from a pragmatic perspective, as I stated previously, to permit the cultivation of every new group and cult that undermines the constitution and the stability of the society, under the guise of religious tolerance, is not a feasible option.

The equivalent here would be attempts by Republicans or Democrats to suppress or eliminate Libertarians and other minority parties with differing thoughts. One of the great things about democracy is freedom and the ability for one to think for themselves and choose accordingly without fear of persecution.

Secular democracy and theocratic democracy are different.

God's laws (which are the foundation of a theocratic democracy) cannot be put to vote. We cannot vote on the truth.

Discussions are good

Yes.
However, I would add, they are good depending on who you are holding a discussion with.

[Weightaholic]

However, Bahaiism emerged in the 18th century, with its own prophet, who changed many of Islamic laws. Thus, not only his prophethood is not recognized by Islam, his laws are in direct conflict with Islamic laws.

Irrelevant.

"There is no compulsion in religion."

Either this statement applies to all religions, and we all go on our way, or we acknowledge the steaming heap of hypocrisy inherent in having a listing of "approved" religions that no compulison applies to.

Would you find it acceptable if YOU weren't allowed to practice your religion freely? I think not....

[TranceNRG]

Irrelevant.

"There is no compulsion in religion."

Either this statement applies to all religions, and we all go on our way, or we acknowledge the steaming heap of hypocrisy inherent in having a listing of "approved" religions that no compulison applies to.

Would you find it acceptable if YOU weren't allowed to practice your religion freely? I think not....

Did you read the link I posted?

OK let's look at this way.
In western secular societies we boast about the presence of freedom of choice, right?
Now, let's say I choose to go over the speed limit.

Will the cops pull me over?
Why? Why would they not respect my freedom to choose?

[leafs43]

Did you read the link I posted?

OK let's look at this way.
In western secular societies we boast about the presence of freedom of choice, right?
Now, let's say I choose to go over the speed limit.

Will the cops pull me over?
Why? Why would they not respect my freedom to choose?

Such a red herring and doesn't belong in this conversation.

But to answer your question, the choice of the speed limit is because others around you choose to live most times then not and going over a speed limit makes their decision detrimental to your own decision to speed. Therefore many peoples freedom of choice, and in this case to not get run over, is greater then your need to go over the speed limit.

[Weightaholic]

Did you read the link I posted?

OK let's look at this way.
In western secular societies we boast about the presence of freedom of choice, right?
Now, let's say I choose to go over the speed limit.

Will the cops pull me over?
Why? Why would they not respect my freedom to choose?

Not the same thing at all, and your example is irrelevant to this argumwent. Western secular societies do not have statements that were allegedly handed down by God saying "There shall be no speed limits on Route 66".

[TranceNRG]

Not the same thing at all, and your example is irrelevant to this argumwent. Western secular societies do not have statements that were allegedly handed down by God saying "There shall be no speed limits on Route 66".

No no
Answer my question, and we'll proceed step by step.

[TranceNRG]

Such a red herring and doesn't belong in this conversation.

But to answer your question, the choice of the speed limit is because others around you choose to live most times then not and going over a speed limit makes their decision detrimental to your own decision to speed. Therefore many peoples freedom of choice, and in this case to not get run over, is greater then your need to go over the speed limit.

Great answer.
Do you not see how I could use the same reasoning in my argument?

[leafs43]

Great answer.
Do you not see how I could use the same reasoning in my argument?

No, because the speed limit is a social measure.

The basis for the laws which you describe are based off of the supernatural.

[Weightaholic]

No no
Answer my question, and we'll proceed step by step.

No, this time I don't think I will answer your question. It's a red herring, and you know it. When you can find a statement by god telling us "there shall be no speed limits on the roads", then we have something to discuss.

As it stands, the statement made that "There is no compulsion in religion." is plainly false.

[TranceNRG]

No, because the speed limit is a social measure.

The basis for the laws which you describe are based off of the supernatural.

But at this point, we're simply speaking about being punished for choosing something different from the law. We're not speaking about the nature and the source of the law yet.

So, you agree that in a society, the laws must be protected and whoever aims to or in fact breaks the laws must be punished, right?

[TranceNRG]

No, this time I don't think I will answer your question. It's a red herring, and you know it. When you can find a statement by god telling us "there shall be no speed limits on the roads", then we have something to discuss.

As it stands, the statement made that "There is no compulsion in religion." is plainly false.

Since you and Leaf are saying the same thing, I'll just copy/paste my answer here as well.

But at this point, we're simply speaking about being punished for choosing something different from the law. We're not speaking about the nature and the source of the law yet.

So, you agree that in a society, the laws must be protected and whoever aims to or in fact breaks the laws must be punished, right?

[leafs43]

But at this point, we're simply speaking about being punished for choosing something different from the law. We're not speaking about the nature and the source of the law yet.

So, you agree that in a society, the laws must be protected and whoever aims to or in fact breaks the laws must be punished, right?

No, you don't get it.

One is a law created by humans to protect humans from other humans from physical danger.

Another is created by humans to suppress ideas and free thought of other humans.


The idea that you are even comparing this to a speeding law is ridiculous.

[Weightaholic]

Since you and Leaf are saying the same thing, I'll just copy/paste my answer here as well.

Again, it's irrelevant, and a red herring. You have an allegedly "divine law" that must be obeyed, that states very clearly "There is no compulsion in religion". It's fairly unequivocal. Yet, somehow, because the religion that's being oppressed is NOT islam, or on the "Islam approved list" of religions, it's all magically A-OK.