Write-up for Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 Program

[dcamnc]

Not much to add here, but I just started my own bastardized version of the 5/3/1. I kind of follow the boring but big program, but have changed several things around to suit my needs. I like it so far. It's a simple, percentage-based routine, like madcow 5x5, but it has more options as far as setup and exercise selection.

[Serpens Aeon]

I've run this program before with a training partner, and should note that unless you're moving fairly heavy weights, then, the volume for the main exercises may not be enough to provoke an adaptive response. A personal modification we made on squats, bench and overhead presses was to add in two sets of 5s or 3s. These were done at 82.5 and 80% for the 5s, and 87.5 and 85% for the 3s, making for a slick wave. This was done using the "triumvirate" training model (3 exercises per session). We left the the third week largely the same, although allowed for 1-2 more max attempts starting at 102.5% if the 1RM single went up easily enough.

This is obviously more useful if you're an intermediate lifter and want to use the template, but can still make progress faster than over a single month such as this program recommends.

[vicjg]

I've run this program before with a training partner, and should note that unless you're moving fairly heavy weights, then, the volume for the main exercises may not be enough to provoke an adaptive response. .

I agree. FWIW its worth, I am doing back off sets with the main exercises for sets of 10 (60%, 55%,50%,45%,40%)

[mjw8204]

I've run this program before with a training partner, and should note that unless you're moving fairly heavy weights, then, the volume for the main exercises may not be enough to provoke an adaptive response.

This was my experience with it. My strength on some lifts actually started to drop. There's also the issue of starting a certain % below your actual 1RM, given how much time it takes to get through just one cycle. If, for example, you reduce everything by 10% to get a running start, it might take more than three months just to get back to your previous numbers. While that may be fine for expectionally strong people who need the slower climb, I think it actually works against weaker lifters who need a more continual dose of stress.

Just my opinion.

[MISSINGLINK]

I've run this program before with a training partner, and should note that unless you're moving fairly heavy weights, then, the volume for the main exercises may not be enough to provoke an adaptive response. A personal modification we made on squats, bench and overhead presses was to add in two sets of 5s or 3s. These were done at 82.5 and 80% for the 5s, and 87.5 and 85% for the 3s, making for a slick wave. This was done using the "triumvirate" training model (3 exercises per session). We left the the third week largely the same, although allowed for 1-2 more max attempts starting at 102.5% if the 1RM single went up easily enough.

This is obviously more useful if you're an intermediate lifter and want to use the template, but can still make progress faster than over a single month such as this program recommends.

What weights are you throwing around. If I did a set at 82.5% it would only be 5lbs more than my 80% set. Are you saying that you did 2 sets at 80% for the 5's (Same for the 3's, there is already a 85% set)?

[Andalite]

So buy him a hooker.

If only I hung out with the same nefarious elements like you

[Serpens Aeon]

What weights are you throwing around. If I did a set at 82.5% it would only be 5lbs more than my 80% set. Are you saying that you did 2 sets at 80% for the 5's (Same for the 3's, there is already a 85% set)?

I'll give you an example of Box Squats.

Week 1
Warm-Ups....

Work Sets (5x5 @ 75, 80, 85, 82.5, 80% w/ 1RM = 375; weights are rounded down to nearest 5lbs increment)

5 x 280
5 x 300
5 x 315
5 x 310
5 x 300

Week 2
Warm-Ups...

Work Sets (5x3 @ 80, 85, 90, 87.5, 85% 1RM)

3 x 300
3 x 315
3 x 335
3 x 325
3 x 315

So yes, I did do two sets at 80% for the 5s workout, and two sets at 85% for the 3s workout.

I think one of the bits that is crucial to the context here is that in "Training Three Days a Week," Jim notes how he's perfectly happy to only add something like 10-15lbs to some lifts in a year. An example he gives is how how deadlifted 610lbs for 3 reps at what I think is a bodyweight under 300lbs. How many of us here can do that? He's writing this from the perspective of not only an advanced, but dare I say elite trainee. Thus, there's that fine line between too much versus not enough for someone of that level. Whereas for the majority of people here who might try this, who'll likely be intermediates such as myself, it's not so useful I don't think without some sort of modification that adjusts the volume. Generally speaking, though, if you want to gain significant strength in that lift, sets should be at or above 80% of 1RM. "80% of the time you should be working at 80%."

Personally, when I eventually get around to running a Westside style template again in the next few months, I'll be using the 5/3/1 as inspiration for my ME work. Only insofar, however, as each week I try to hit a 5RM then a 3RM, and then finally 1RM record on the third week before the deload on the fourth week. That might be a useful modification to make.

Another way to accommodate the loss of volume as the weeks go on might be to add in assistance work as main exercise volume decreases. So, say you did 3x5 on the Bench Press and then followed that up with DB Bench Presses at 3x8 the next week, when you do 3x3 for the Bench Press, you do 4x8 for the DB Bench Presses, and then add another set again for the 3x5,3,1 exercise the next week.

[Serpens Aeon]

This was my experience with it. My strength on some lifts actually started to drop. There's also the issue of starting a certain % below your actual 1RM, given how much time it takes to get through just one cycle. If, for example, you reduce everything by 10% to get a running start, it might take more than three months just to get back to your previous numbers. While that may be fine for expectionally strong people who need the slower climb, I think it actually works against weaker lifters who need a more continual dose of stress.

Just my opinion.

Yeah, I really think that this is a template better reserved for someone who's much stronger, and advanced or an intermediate who needs an extended deload. For now, I think I'll just rotate between a Texas Method style template and a Westside template as training needs and availability of time dictate.

[dcamnc]

I too noticed the lack of volume, so I changed it suit my needs.

Warmup on heavy bag, jumping jacks, b.w. squats, jump rope, barbell complex, then:



C&J 5-7x 1-4 %varies
Back squat w.u. then 5/3/1 routine
Supported Row 3-4x5-15
OHS or snatch balance 3-4x whatever (lightish, technique focus)
Core/AB 3-4x whatever

OFF

Snatch 5-7x1-4 %varies
Bench w.u. then 5/3/1 routine
RDL (light, focus on glute/hams) 3-4x5-15
Vertical press variant 50-60% 3-4x10ish
Core/Ab 3-4x whatever

OFF

C&J 5-7x1-4 %varies
Front Squat w.u. then 5/3/1 routine
Chin 3-4x 8-15
OHS or snatch balance 3-4x whatever (lightish, technique focus)
Core/Ab 3-4x whatever

Off

Snatch 5-7x1-4 %varies
Push Press w.u. then 5/3/1 routine
G.M. (light, focus on glute/hams) 3-4x5-15
Horizontal press variant 50-60% 3-4x10ish
Core/Ab 3-4x whatever

Off

rotate back to first day

[MISSINGLINK]

I'll give you an example of Box Squats.

Week 1
Warm-Ups....

Work Sets (5x5 @ 75, 80, 85, 82.5, 80% w/ 1RM = 375; weights are rounded down to nearest 5lbs increment)

5 x 280
5 x 300
5 x 315
5 x 310
5 x 300

Week 2
Warm-Ups...

Work Sets (5x3 @ 80, 85, 90, 87.5, 85% 1RM)

3 x 300
3 x 315
3 x 335
3 x 325
3 x 315

So yes, I did do two sets at 80% for the 5s workout, and two sets at 85% for the 3s workout.

I think one of the bits that is crucial to the context here is that in "Training Three Days a Week," Jim notes how he's perfectly happy to only add something like 10-15lbs to some lifts in a year. An example he gives is how how deadlifted 610lbs for 3 reps at what I think is a bodyweight under 300lbs. How many of us here can do that? He's writing this from the perspective of not only an advanced, but dare I say elite trainee. Thus, there's that fine line between too much versus not enough for someone of that level. Whereas for the majority of people here who might try this, who'll likely be intermediates such as myself, it's not so useful I don't think without some sort of modification that adjusts the volume. Generally speaking, though, if you want to gain significant strength in that lift, sets should be at or above 80% of 1RM. "80% of the time you should be working at 80%."

Personally, when I eventually get around to running a Westside style template again in the next few months, I'll be using the 5/3/1 as inspiration for my ME work. Only insofar, however, as each week I try to hit a 5RM then a 3RM, and then finally 1RM record on the third week before the deload on the fourth week. That might be a useful modification to make.

Another way to accommodate the loss of volume as the weeks go on might be to add in assistance work as main exercise volume decreases. So, say you did 3x5 on the Bench Press and then followed that up with DB Bench Presses at 3x8 the next week, when you do 3x3 for the Bench Press, you do 4x8 for the DB Bench Presses, and then add another set again for the 3x5,3,1 exercise the next week.

Nice post. I am going to try that next cycle and add in a 102.5% 1RM. Did you do the 102.5 of your current or actual 1RM?

[Serpens Aeon]

Nice post. I am going to try that next cycle and add in a 102.5% 1RM. Did you do the 102.5 of your current or actual 1RM?

I'm not quite sure which context you're asking this in so I'll give you a fuller answer than maybe necessary.

When I started my cycle I based it off my current 1RM. If I remember correctly, the final week has you hitting a single at 95 or 100% of your 1RM. However, in the final week, after doing the requisite 5/3/1 work, I also allowed for two additional 1RM attempts. One at 102.5 and the other being based on the feel of the 102.5 set. I used the resulting 1RM from that as the basis of my next 5/3/1 cycle.

[MISSINGLINK]

I'm not quite sure which context you're asking this in so I'll give you a fuller answer than maybe necessary.

When I started my cycle I based it off my current 1RM. If I remember correctly, the final week has you hitting a single at 95 or 100% of your 1RM. However, in the final week, after doing the requisite 5/3/1 work, I also allowed for two additional 1RM attempts. One at 102.5 and the other being based on the feel of the 102.5 set. I used the resulting 1RM from that as the basis of my next 5/3/1 cycle.

I see. I am going by his prescription of cutting 10% of your current 1RM and then work back up. I have been on the program since July 7th and am now just getting back to my current 1RM's. I have set several rep PR's but I am now just getting back to where I am going to be able to go over my 1RM

[Serpens Aeon]

I see. I am going by his prescription of cutting 10% of your current 1RM and then work back up. I have been on the program since July 7th and am now just getting back to my current 1RM's. I have set several rep PR's but I am now just getting back to where I am going to be able to go over my 1RM

Yeah. What level of trainee are you? If you're an intermediate like me I'm of the mind that one should be setting some sort of record once a week unless deloading. Otherwise progress is too slow.

When I utilize the idea of 5/3/1 again I'll probably set it up so that each week I hit either a 5, 3, or 1RM PR every week with enough volume added on in that exercise to maintain progress. It'll probably end up looking very little like Wendler's model in the end, however.

[mjw8204]

I see. I am going by his prescription of cutting 10% of your current 1RM and then work back up. I have been on the program since July 7th and am now just getting back to my current 1RM's.

This is exactly why I decided to ditch the program sooner than later. I was already seeing indications that I was losing strength, and I did not want to spend five months working back up to maxes with the hope that I MIGHT be stronger when I get there.

Too much risk for the possibility of little reward.

[MISSINGLINK]

Yeah. What level of trainee are you? If you're an intermediate like me I'm of the mind that one should be setting some sort of record once a week unless deloading. Otherwise progress is too slow.

When I utilize the idea of 5/3/1 again I'll probably set it up so that each week I hit either a 5, 3, or 1RM PR every week with enough volume added on in that exercise to maintain progress. It'll probably end up looking very little like Wendler's model in the end, however.

Deadlift max 475
Bench 320
Incline (Using for Military) 300
Squat 415


I was making crazy rep PR's but I began to wonder what would happen when I got close to the actual 1RM's that I cut the 10% from. I am glad that you posted this.
Where are you at in relation to this? I believe that I am an intermediate.

[Serpens Aeon]

Deadlift max 475
Bench 320
Incline (Using for Military) 300
Squat 415

Where are you at in relation to this? I believe that I am an intermediate.

Were roughly even.

I don't know what my incline bench press is, but my standing military is just about to break 200lbs.

[MISSINGLINK]

Were roughly even.

I don't know what my incline bench press is, but my standing military is just about to break 200lbs.

My military is 225 for 1. We are right about the same. Did you find that adding the extra volume helped you progress? I am very curious about this and am going to add it in as you have written in.

[HumanHorrorFilm]

I started in on Wendlers 5/3/1 today.

I was in the intermediate level of lifting, got hurt, now back at the beginning.

hmm, so basically, what your saying Serpent is to add two work sets to each day to provide more of a stimulus?

then on the last week, instead of repping out 95, you do it once, then you go for a 102.5% 1 RM?

im kind of confused on it, also, with this method, are you taking out the "rep out" part of the program?

[Serpens Aeon]

My military is 225 for 1. We are right about the same. Did you find that adding the extra volume helped you progress? I am very curious about this and am going to add it in as you have written in.

The extra volume did indeed help me progress, I think. I ran this program over the summer for a total of three cycles, and noticed a distinct difference between the first (which was done per Wendler's recommendations) and the last two. Again, though, I did it utilizing the "triumvirate" methodology noted in "Training Three Days a Week," though so this probably had somewhat of an effect. If you're doing more assistance work then I'd obviously take this into account.

Like any training program, you're going to tinker with it to find what works best for you.

As an aside, I think your rep PRs, if they were in the 80% range of your 1RM, will probably have added to a new, heavier 1RM.

[Serpens Aeon]

I started in on Wendlers 5/3/1 today.

I was in the intermediate level of lifting, got hurt, now back at the beginning.

hmm, so basically, what your saying Serpent is to add two work sets to each day to provide more of a stimulus?

then on the last week, instead of repping out 95, you do it once, then you go for a 102.5% 1 RM?

im kind of confused on it, also, with this method, are you taking out the "rep out" part of the program?

If you're back at the beginning then I wouldn't use Wendler's program. I'd start up on something like Rippetoe's "SS" model (which I've done in the past after getting injured) since progress is faster this way. I've done this twice after a back and knee injury, and both times I got my lifts back to about where they were before in 6-8 weeks. Anyway, about Wendler's program...

I'm not necessarily taking the "rep out" portion of the program, but I wouldn't do it on the heaviest set since you'd have two more heavy sets to go through. If you want to do that, though, go ahead and do it on the last set of the exercise. With the added volume, though, it might not be necessary, especially if you're starting with your current maxes.

For the last week, I'd run it like this:

Warm Ups...

5 x 75%
3 x 85%
1 x 95%
1 x 102.5%

This is when you gauge how you felt. If the 102.5% went up without too much of a problem then up the weight depending on how you feel. The last set requires discretion based upon that attempt. If you missed it or just barely got it try for another single at about 90-100% of your 1RM. That way you can get in 3 sets at or above 90% of your 1RM. I base this off the protocols surrounding Westside Barbell's Maximum Effort method.

[HumanHorrorFilm]

Thanks for the explanation SA. My lifts are back up to close to what they were, except for ym deadlift, which is what i got hurt doing. i just run SS for about 5 weeks.

I was going to run his boring but big template on this, at about 60% on all lifts, except for deadlifts, which was going to be a day to really hammer low back, glutes(with rev hyper, GHR, etc.)

Im going to add those sets in and see how it goes.

Did you run all 4 days in a week or three and carry one over?

[Serpens Aeon]

Thanks for the explanation SA. My lifts are back up to close to what they were, except for ym deadlift, which is what i got hurt doing. i just run SS for about 5 weeks.

I was going to run his boring but big template on this, at about 60% on all lifts, except for deadlifts, which was going to be a day to really hammer low back, glutes(with rev hyper, GHR, etc.)

Im going to add those sets in and see how it goes.

Did you run all 4 days in a week or three and carry one over?

I did one workout every other day. This seemed to work well. So it'd look like:

Week 1
Day 1 - Bench Press
Day 2 - Off
Day 3 - Deadlift
Day 4 - Off
Day 5 - Press
Day 6 - Off
Day 7 - Squat

Week 2
Day 1 - Off
Day 2 - Bench Press
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Deadlift
Day 5 - Off
Day 6 - Press
Day 7 - Off

[HumanHorrorFilm]

thanks for all the feedback. i am going to do the added volume starting with benching wed. i hope this does well for my bench, as my push press is higher than it

pretty exicted about running this

would you still add the two extra sets if you are running the boring but big template?

[vicjg]

This has to be one of the more intelligent threads I've seen here in a LONG time.

I have some observations.

I have always had a hard time trying to get high rep work in & maintain strength. Once I started higher rep work on the main lifts, I neglected strength work and I always suffered a loss in 1RM.

On the other hand, since I've never consistently done higher rep sets, there's huge room for advancement (kinda like noob gains). The way I have set my cycles up, I feel like I get to get good quality work in both rep ranges + the recovery time has been adequate. Since the high rep stuff taps a pretty unused reserve of strength this alone should drive adaptation.

Cliffs:
While most intermediates may do better on a program where the weight is increase more frequently, for someone who is unaccustomed to high rep work (Intermediates guys who have done SS, Madcow's, etc), keeping the high intensity work + adding the sets of 10, this setup can be very useful.

[HumanHorrorFilm]

This has to be one of the more intelligent threads I've seen here in a LONG time.

I have some observations.

I have always had a hard time trying to get high rep work in & maintain strength. Once I started higher rep work on the main lifts, I neglected strength work and I always suffered a loss in 1RM.

On the other hand, since I've never consistently done higher rep sets, there's huge room for advancement (kinda like noob gains). The way I have set my cycles up, I feel like I get to get good quality work in both rep ranges + the recovery time has been adequate. Since the high rep stuff taps a pretty unused reserve of strength this alone should drive adaptation.

Cliffs:
While most intermediates may do better on a program where the weight is increase more frequently, for someone who is unaccustomed to high rep work (Intermediates guys who have done SS, Madcow's, etc), keeping the high intensity work + adding the sets of 10, this setup can be very useful.

This is a really good post, and Vic, ive checked out your journal and like the added volume your doing with your 4 "big" exercises.

I do want to add in te volume to make sure i hit the adaptive response needed to get stronger like SA has said, but im not sure in the long run as i really am looking at the boring but big program right now.

SA, what would your thoughts be on running the 5/3/1 program with the BBB template as prescribed by Wendler, but on the last week before deloading, using your process of allowing for the last 85% set, then the two additional sets. I would be a good way to gauge if you getting enough stimulus to progress?

[Serpens Aeon]

This is a really good post, and Vic, ive checked out your journal and like the added volume your doing with your 4 "big" exercises.

Yeah, this could be good also in that, as a reality of the exercise used, you'll get extra practice at doing the lift, and so may become better acquainted with the mechanics of it, having to spend less focus on doing it correctly.

SA, what would your thoughts be on running the 5/3/1 program with the BBB template as prescribed by Wendler, but on the last week before deloading, using your process of allowing for the last 85% set, then the two additional sets. I would be a good way to gauge if you getting enough stimulus to progress?

I don't know if the BBB template would necessarily be a great idea with the added volume I recommended. I think it has the potential to lead to an overuse injury; in the first week alone, that's roughly 75 reps on one exercise, with 20 being at or above 80% of one's 1RM. If you really want more volume I'd only do one maybe two back-off sets, and then do an assistance exercise that is adjusted for the added volume in the main lift. 75 reps on deadlifts sounds... not cool.

And yes, that's essentially what the last two sets are for in the third week; to assess progress.

[swoleplaya]

How do you begin the new cycle? Test 1 rm and go again?

[mjw8204]

How do you begin the new cycle? Test 1 rm and go again?

Just up the weights a bit from last time if you either hit or beat your prescribed reps.

[vicjg]

How do you begin the new cycle? Test 1 rm and go again?

Its probably not necessary to test every cycle. Depending on how the last cycle feels, bump up the max you used to calculate the %'s by, maybe 5-10lbs.

[PaC-mAn8]

After the deload, are you supposed to test out your 1rm again?

I'm a bit confused on this....because how/when are you supposed to hit PR's if the max you work upto is 95%?