How can you not believe in God??? For the non-believers

[pk16]

1.) Law of Cause and Effect: For every material effect, there has to be a cause. There has to be some casual agent that began the process and set the universe in motion. The only possible explanation is a higher being that even man will never fully understand. That is God. Even Sir Isaac Newton stated, " This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and domination of an intelligent and powerful being."

You may find it harder to believe that God could make everything out of nothing, but the alternative is that nothing turned itself into everything. Which takes more faith to believe?

2.) Our universe had to be desgined. Every little detail had to be absolutly perfect or life on our earth would not exsist.

If you placed all the pieces of a watch into a shoe box and shook it for 10 minutes, do u believe it would shake into a functioning watch? Of course not. What if you shook it for a year? Say you could do it for 10 billion years; would you then have a functioning watch? There is no possible way for that to happen. And if it couldnt happen by chance to something relatively as simple like a watch, it most certainly couldnt happen by chance to our magnificently complex universe! And the sad thing is, most non believers think this is true. It just somehow formed just like a watch in a shoe box.

3.) Moral Law: Evolution can not explain where our sense of mortality comes from. How can we know that something is wrong if there is not a right? Why do right and wrong even exsist?

4.) Law of Probablitly: Dr. Harold Morowitz who was a former professor of biophysics at Yale estimated that the probability of life evolving on any single planet, including Earth, is one chance in 10 to the 2,000,000,000 power! Do you realize how big that number really is? It would take 6,000 books with 300 pages each just to write that number out. So if ever anything were impossible, spontaneous generation would have to be it. And thats just for a single molecule to come to life. How would you explain the complexity of life forms, or the formation of the extreamly detailed DNA code? Human DNA has over 3 billion peices of information.

5.) You can not create life from non life. It has never been done before and it will never be done. Even if some scientist was somehow able to do it, it still would not be natural. It was still created in a lab under just the right conditions.

6.) How can you say the bible is made up stories?

Consider for a moment the sheer miracle of the bible. It was written by over 40 writers during the span of more then 60 generations. ( around 1,600 years). These writers were from a variety of backgrounds: kings, herdsman, soldiers, fisherman, poets, etc. The writers wrote on the contients of asia, africa, and europe in the languages of hebrew, greek, and aramaic. Yet the bible manages to present one unfolding drama of redemtion. How is it possible that the bible could have been written in the most complex and counterprotuctive way imaginable, and yet manage to fit togather so accurately?

The bible is the best selling book of all time. Bible sales are about 150 million per year with over 4 billion bibles in print in over 2,000 languages. No other book even comes close. There is something about it that draws people to want to read it. Something special had to have happened for one single book to influence so many people for century after century.

Historical evidence supports the bible...

The bible has over 24,000 ancient copies of portions of the new testiment The next closest in all of antiquity is Homers Iliad, of which we have 643 ancient copies.

There has been over 25,000 archaeological finds that provide support regarding people, their titles, and their locations mentioned in the bible.

The bible contains over 2,000 detailed prophercies in the old testiment alone. And except for the prophercies that tell about the end of time return of Jesus, every single prophecy including those about political, religious, intellectual, and geographic events leading up to the return of Jesus Christ to earth- has been fullfilled down to the smallest detail.

The Bible even talks about the earth being round and not flat and that the Earth was supported by nothing way way before science told us so.

So I do not understand how you can say the Bible is not accurate.

Anyways, I know this was long but I was just wondering what some of you have to say. Im not trying to be stubborn in anyway. I respect the beliefs of everyone.

[gata35]

well said

[fenixzona]

1.) Law of Cause and Effect: For every material effect, there has to be a cause. There has to be some casual agent that began the process and set the universe in motion. The only possible explanation is a higher being that even man will never fully understand. That is God. Even Sir Isaac Newton stated, " This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and domination of an intelligent and powerful being."

You may find it harder to believe that God could make everything out of nothing, but the alternative is that nothing turned itself into everything. Which takes more faith to believe?

2.) Our universe had to be desgined. Every little detail had to be absolutly perfect or life on our earth would not exsist.

If you placed all the pieces of a watch into a shoe box and shook it for 10 minutes, do u believe it would shake into a functioning watch? Of course not. What if you shook it for a year? Say you could do it for 10 billion years; would you then have a functioning watch? There is no possible way for that to happen. And if it couldnt happen by chance to something relatively as simple like a watch, it most certainly couldnt happen by chance to our magnificently complex universe! And the sad thing is, most non believers think this is true. It just somehow formed just like a watch in a shoe box.

3.) Moral Law: Evolution can not explain where our sense of mortality comes from. How can we know that something is wrong if there is not a right? Why do right and wrong even exsist?

4.) Law of Probablitly: Dr. Harold Morowitz who was a former professor of biophysics at Yale estimated that the probability of life evolving on any single planet, including Earth, is one chance in 10 to the 2,000,000,000 power! Do you realize how big that number really is? It would take 6,000 books with 300 pages each just to write that number out. So if ever anything were impossible, spontaneous generation would have to be it. And thats just for a single molecule to come to life. How would you explain the complexity of life forms, or the formation of the extreamly detailed DNA code? Human DNA has over 3 billion peices of information.

5.) You can not create life from non life. It has never been done before and it will never be done. Even if some scientist was somehow able to do it, it still would not be natural. It was still created in a lab under just the right conditions.

6.) How can you say the bible is made up stories?

Consider for a moment the sheer miracle of the bible. It was written by over 40 writers during the span of more then 60 generations. ( around 1,600 years). These writers were from a variety of backgrounds: kings, herdsman, soldiers, fisherman, poets, etc. The writers wrote on the contients of asia, africa, and europe in the languages of hebrew, greek, and aramaic. Yet the bible manages to present one unfolding drama of redemtion. How is it possible that the bible could have been written in the most complex and counterprotuctive way imaginable, and yet manage to fit togather so accurately?

The bible is the best selling book of all time. Bible sales are about 150 million per year with over 4 billion bibles in print in over 2,000 languages. No other book even comes close. There is something about it that draws people to want to read it. Something special had to have happened for one single book to influence so many people for century after century.

Historical evidence supports the bible...

The bible has over 24,000 ancient copies of portions of the new testiment The next closest in all of antiquity is Homers Iliad, of which we have 643 ancient copies.

There has been over 25,000 archaeological finds that provide support regarding people, their titles, and their locations mentioned in the bible.

The bible contains over 2,000 detailed prophercies in the old testiment alone. And except for the prophercies that tell about the end of time return of Jesus, every single prophecy including those about political, religious, intellectual, and geographic events leading up to the return of Jesus Christ to earth- has been fullfilled down to the smallest detail.

The Bible even talks about the earth being round and not flat and that the Earth was supported by nothing way way before science told us so.

So I do not understand how you can say the Bible is not accurate.

Anyways, I know this was long but I was just wondering what some of you have to say. Im not trying to be stubborn in anyway. I respect the beliefs of everyone.

That is all well and good, but can you proove anything? Just because the bible sold a bunch of copies don't make it right. If it's the word of God, then why do I have to pay for it?

[M-DK]

I gotta go to an exam shortly, but ill give it a quick go.

1.) Law of Cause and Effect: For every material effect, there has to be a cause. There has to be some casual agent that began the process and set the universe in motion. The only possible explanation is a higher being that even man will never fully understand. That is God. Even Sir Isaac Newton stated, " This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and domination of an intelligent and powerful being."

You may find it harder to believe that God could make everything out of nothing, but the alternative is that nothing turned itself into everything. Which takes more faith to believe?

Non-answer. Where did god come from?

2.) Our universe had to be desgined. Every little detail had to be absolutly perfect or life on our earth would not exsist.

If you placed all the pieces of a watch into a shoe box and shook it for 10 minutes, do u believe it would shake into a functioning watch? Of course not. What if you shook it for a year? Say you could do it for 10 billion years; would you then have a functioning watch? There is no possible way for that to happen. And if it couldnt happen by chance to something relatively as simple like a watch, it most certainly couldnt happen by chance to our magnificently complex universe! And the sad thing is, most non believers think this is true. It just somehow formed just like a watch in a shoe box.

If youre referring to evolution, your analogy doesnt work, cause it isnt random.

If youre talking about the so called "fine-tuning" argument, my counter will be that if the properties of the universe were different, we wouldnt be here to discuss them, so the argument is meaningless.

3.) Moral Law: Evolution can not explain where our sense of mortality comes from. How can we know that something is wrong if there is not a right? Why do right and wrong even exsist?

Yes, evolution can explain morality. Google it.

4.) Law of Probablitly: Dr. Harold Morowitz who was a former professor of biophysics at Yale estimated that the probability of life evolving on any single planet, including Earth, is one chance in 10 to the 2,000,000,000 power! Do you realize how big that number really is? It would take 6,000 books with 300 pages each just to write that number out. So if ever anything were impossible, spontaneous generation would have to be it. And thats just for a single molecule to come to life. How would you explain the complexity of life forms, or the formation of the extreamly detailed DNA code? Human DNA has over 3 billion peices of information.

Assuming those numbers are reasonable (which i doubt), the universe is pretty darn big, and has been around for a long time.

But ultimately the probability is irrelevant. It happened, or we wouldnt be talking about it. What if there were 1000 parallel universes where it didnt happen? We wouldnt know, or care. This ties in to the fine-tuning argument.

5.) You can not create life from non life. It has never been done before and it will never be done. Even if some scientist was somehow able to do it, it still would not be natural. It was still created in a lab under just the right conditions.

People are working on it. And whats so wrong with it being in a lab? That is the only way to simulate the conditions of the time.


Im no expert on the bible, so ill leave that to people like Ruhanv. Im in a hurry anyway...

[DaCougarMech]

1.) Law of Cause and Effect: For every material effect, there has to be a cause. There has to be some casual agent that began the process and set the universe in motion. The only possible explanation is a higher being that even man will never fully understand. That is God. Even Sir Isaac Newton stated, " This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and domination of an intelligent and powerful being."

You may find it harder to believe that God could make everything out of nothing, but the alternative is that nothing turned itself into everything. Which takes more faith to believe?

oh, so:

1. nothing created god, who created the universe
2. nothing created the universe

also, for all time in which there was time, there was matter, for time is a property of matter

2.) Our universe had to be desgined. Every little detail had to be absolutly perfect or life on our earth would not exsist.

If you placed all the pieces of a watch into a shoe box and shook it for 10 minutes, do u believe it would shake into a functioning watch? Of course not. What if you shook it for a year? Say you could do it for 10 billion years; would you then have a functioning watch? There is no possible way for that to happen. And if it couldnt happen by chance to something relatively as simple like a watch, it most certainly couldnt happen by chance to our magnificently complex universe! And the sad thing is, most non believers think this is true. It just somehow formed just like a watch in a shoe box.

this is the bullseye fallacy. you're drawing the bullseye around the bullethole

3.) Moral Law: Evolution can not explain where our sense of mortality comes from. How can we know that something is wrong if there is not a right? Why do right and wrong even exsist?

evolution doesn not explain right and wrong(at least not intentionally), but neither does the law of gravity

as far as my humble opinion goes, morality is a collection of taboos gradually accumulated by civilizations that were more successful in establishing them

furthermore, is there a why about their existence if they dont exist?

4.) Law of Probablitly: Dr. Harold Morowitz who was a former professor of biophysics at Yale estimated that the probability of life evolving on any single planet, including Earth, is one chance in 10 to the 2,000,000,000 power! Do you realize how big that number really is? It would take 6,000 books with 300 pages each just to write that number out. So if ever anything were impossible, spontaneous generation would have to be it. And thats just for a single molecule to come to life. How would you explain the complexity of life forms, or the formation of the extreamly detailed DNA code? Human DNA has over 3 billion peices of information.

so you took a number and say that it's incredible. then offer your opinion that it must be impossible

5.) You can not create life from non life. It has never been done before and it will never be done. Even if some scientist was somehow able to do it, it still would not be natural. It was still created in a lab under just the right conditions.

so you're saying if i do the impossible, it's still impossible.

6.) How can you say the bible is made up stories?

Consider for a moment the sheer miracle of the bible. It was written by over 40 writers during the span of more then 60 generations. ( around 1,600 years). These writers were from a variety of backgrounds: kings, herdsman, soldiers, fisherman, poets, etc. The writers wrote on the contients of asia, africa, and europe in the languages of hebrew, greek, and aramaic. Yet the bible manages to present one unfolding drama of redemtion. How is it possible that the bible could have been written in the most complex and counterprotuctive way imaginable, and yet manage to fit togather so accurately?

The bible is the best selling book of all time. Bible sales are about 150 million per year with over 4 billion bibles in print in over 2,000 languages. No other book even comes close. There is something about it that draws people to want to read it. Something special had to have happened for one single book to influence so many people for century after century.

Historical evidence supports the bible...

The bible has over 24,000 ancient copies of portions of the new testiment The next closest in all of antiquity is Homers Iliad, of which we have 643 ancient copies.

There has been over 25,000 archaeological finds that provide support regarding people, their titles, and their locations mentioned in the bible.

The bible contains over 2,000 detailed prophercies in the old testiment alone. And except for the prophercies that tell about the end of time return of Jesus, every single prophecy including those about political, religious, intellectual, and geographic events leading up to the return of Jesus Christ to earth- has been fullfilled down to the smallest detail.

The Bible even talks about the earth being round and not flat and that the Earth was supported by nothing way way before science told us so.

So I do not understand how you can say the Bible is not accurate.

Anyways, I know this was long but I was just wondering what some of you have to say. Im not trying to be stubborn in anyway. I respect the beliefs of everyone.

no comments. i didnt grow up christian. this is for others to tear apart

[pk16]

well mathematicians say that any event in which the chances are beyond one in 10 to the 50th power is impossible. So I think its safe to say Spontaneous generation could not have happened.

[DaCougarMech]

well mathematicians say that any event in which the chances are beyond one in 10 to the 50th power is impossible. So I think its safe to say Spontaneous generation could not have happened.

mathematicians have no say in biology

in addition, they fail to consider that they are talking about specific events with specific players

it's like saying the chances of you meeting george w bush are improbable, therefore george w bush has never met anyone

[Shrek_X]

That is all well and good, but can you proove anything? Just because the bible sold a bunch of copies don't make it right. If it's the word of God, then why do I have to pay for it?

you dont, about any Church will give you one, and if your local Church wont, shoot me a msg and I will

[Goonmonger]

well mathematicians say that any event in which the chances are beyond one in 10 to the 50th power is impossible. So I think its safe to say Spontaneous generation could not have happened.

Scientists now say our universe had something like 10E126 tries before this universe came along, something like that. Don't quote me, but you get the idea I hope.

[gus83]

well mathematicians say that any event in which the chances are beyond one in 10 to the 50th power is impossible. So I think its safe to say Spontaneous generation could not have happened.

No they don't. This is probably one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever read on here. Impossible is 0 chance of it happening. 1 in 10^50 is not 0.

It's amazing what passes for math education these days.

[Mr Beer]

The numbered ones have already been tackled, so looking at your comments on the Bible:

1. How is the popularity of a book proof that it's true? If this is proof, then I'm sending my kids to Hogwarts.

2. 2,000 absolutely 100% fufilled Biblical prophecies? OK, can pick your three favourite non-metaphorical Biblical prophecies that came true in the 20th century and show they were absolutely unambiguously fufilled in a non-coincidental manner and correctly dated?

3. Please show me where the Bible unambiguously and non-metaphorically stated that the Earth is spherical and surrounded by vacuum and can you also confirm that this statement was not contradicted elsewhere in the Bible?

[gotch]

Bro it looks like your problem is that you are being close minded.

I mean this in the sense that all 6 points you made cannot be proven as laws of nature. Be open that each and everyone of your arguments could be false.

the weakest argument you make IMO is 6) about the validity of the bible.

The rest cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt so its more of your own opinion. Why don't you question your own opinions tho?

[pk16]

Among the ancient writings, there is no other text that has manuscripts that come as close in timeto the orginal writing as the bible does. We would never dismiss any old texts of the iliad or the odyssey, and we shouldnt dismiss the bible when it has much better documentation to back it up.

The external evidence for the bible is also amazing. Tacitus a roman historian, and Josephus, a jewish historian both support the historical accuracy of the Bible. For example, there where 17 secular historians who wrote about the death of Jesus by crucifixion. This could not have been concocted by a group of men: External historical records attest to the truth of the bible.

The bible accurently describes history down to the smallest of details, and history attests to the accuracy of scripture. For example, the rise and fall of great empires like Greece and Rome (Daniel 2:39-40) and the destruction of major cities ( for instance, Tyre, Sidon; Isaiah 23) are described in the bible.

Tyre's demise is also recored by other ancient historians. They tell how-after King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon failed in a thirteen year attempt to capture the seacoast city-alexnder the great laid seige to it for seven months and completly destroyed it and its inhabiants.

Intensive and prolonged studies have shown that the historical accuaracy of the bible is far superior to the written records of Egypt, Assyria, and other early nations.

[DaCougarMech]

Among the ancient writings, there is no other text that has manuscripts that come as close in timeto the orginal writing as the bible does. We would never dismiss any old texts of the iliad or the odyssey, and we shouldnt dismiss the bible when it has much better documentation to back it up.

The external evidence for the bible is also amazing. Tacitus a roman historian, and Josephus, a jewish historian both support the historical accuracy of the Bible. For example, there where 17 secular historians who wrote about the death of Jesus by crucifixion. This could not have been concocted by a group of men: External historical records attest to the truth of the bible.

The bible accurently describes history down to the smallest of details, and history attests to the accuracy of scripture. For example, the rise and fall of great empires like Greece and Rome (Daniel 2:39-40) and the destruction of major cities ( for instance, Tyre, Sidon; Isaiah 23) are described in the bible.

Tyre's demise is also recored by other ancient historians. They tell how-after King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon failed in a thirteen year attempt to capture the seacoast city-alexnder the great laid seige to it for seven months and completly destroyed it and its inhabiants.

Intensive and prolonged studies have shown that the historical accuaracy of the bible is far superior to the written records of Egypt, Assyria, and other early nations.

what does that prove? that it's a history book? so what

there are history texts and mythology texts all over the place

besides, it's like harry potter is any more true if i stick a newspaper in between the pages

[pk16]

3. Please show me where the Bible unambiguously and non-metaphorically stated that the Earth is spherical and surrounded by vacuum and can you also confirm that this statement was not contradicted elsewhere in the Bible?

Job 26:7 says of God, " He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing."

That statment was written over 3500 years ago. The bible has always said the Earth is hanging in space.

[Lager1]

Hey guise...some of the "Harry Potter" books mention England, don't they? So they must be true, right?

[DaCougarMech]

Hey guise...some of the "Harry Potter" books mention England, don't they? So they must be true, right?

i saw bertie botts beans the other day...

[lollercopter]

Hey guise...some of the "Harry Potter" books mention England, don't they? So they must be true, right?

Yes, they're all true. What's the problem?

[gotch]

Among the ancient writings, there is no other text that has manuscripts that come as close in timeto the orginal writing as the bible does. We would never dismiss any old texts of the iliad or the odyssey, and we shouldnt dismiss the bible when it has much better documentation to back it up.

The external evidence for the bible is also amazing. Tacitus a roman historian, and Josephus, a jewish historian both support the historical accuracy of the Bible. For example, there where 17 secular historians who wrote about the death of Jesus by crucifixion. This could not have been concocted by a group of men: External historical records attest to the truth of the bible.

The bible accurently describes history down to the smallest of details, and history attests to the accuracy of scripture. For example, the rise and fall of great empires like Greece and Rome (Daniel 2:39-40) and the destruction of major cities ( for instance, Tyre, Sidon; Isaiah 23) are described in the bible.

Tyre's demise is also recored by other ancient historians. They tell how-after King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon failed in a thirteen year attempt to capture the seacoast city-alexnder the great laid seige to it for seven months and completly destroyed it and its inhabiants.

Intensive and prolonged studies have shown that the historical accuaracy of the bible is far superior to the written records of Egypt, Assyria, and other early nations.

Do you even acknowledge that it could be a made up story? Or would that viewpoint shatter your reality so completely that you haven't even considered the thought?

The bible is closer to a fairy tale than anything historical.

Yes there are historically accurate, non-fictional parts. That being said prove to me that Moses parted the red sea, that Jesus was resurrected, That he gave a blind man sight, that he walked on water, etc.

In the past two centuries has anything happened that even comes close to those "miracles". Isn't it funny that as we get better at observing and recording the world around us events like that become less plausible.

[revkins]

pk16, the logic behind every one of your arguments for the existence of God has already been proven to be faulty by countless threads here in the R/P.

You are not providing anything new.

Do a search.

EDIT: Honestly, this is a Grade 2 level of theistic reasoning.

[pk16]

The amazing description of the physical effects of execution by crucifixtion was written hundreds of years before it was used by the Romans. It was first practiced about 200 BC and first practiced in a jewish providence in 63 BC. Yet it was predicted in detail in Psalm 22, written by King David, who was born more then a 1000 years before Jesus. And yes it was predicted the messiah would die that way and he did. The fact that his hands and feet would be peirced and that his garmets would be gambled for are also striking prophetic details in Psalm 22.

There were over 300 prophecys fulfilled just in Jesus's life! This doesnt just happen by chance to a normal person. All these things were told hundereds of years before they happened and are backed up by historic documents!

[revkins]

The amazing description of the physical effects of execution by crucifixtion was written hundreds of years before it was used by the Romans. It was first practiced about 200 BC and first practiced in a jewish providence in 63 BC. Yet it was predicted in detail in Psalm 22, written by King David, who was born more then a 1000 years before Jesus. And yes it was predicted the messiah would die that way and he did. The fact that his hands and feet would be peirced and that his garmets would be gambled for are also striking prophetic details in Psalm 22.

There were over 300 prophecys fulfilled just in Jesus's life! This doesnt just happen by chance to a normal person. All these things were told hundereds of years before they happened and are backed up by historic documents!

This is a serious question:

Did you graduate high school?

[pk16]

In the past two centuries has anything happened that even comes close to those "miracles". Isn't it funny that as we get better at observing and recording the world around us events like that become less plausible.

No kidding no one today can preform miracles, Thats the whole point of Jesus. He was able to preform miracles.

[pk16]

This is a serious question:

Did you graduate highschool?

Yes I have a Bachelors Degree and I am currently in the process of getting my Masters.

[revkins]

Yes I have a Bachelors Degree and I am currently in the process of getting my Masters.

In what, and from where?

[Lager1]

In what, and from where?

Bible Study, from Jesus University

[DaCougarMech]

masters in reading guise! masters in reading!

[pk16]

Univeristy of Pittsburgh

Kinesiology

[Lager1]

Univeristy of Pittsburgh

Kinesiology

Hey sweet! What do you do?

[revkins]

masters in reading guise! masters in reading!

Was it Hokie that said that, and was he serious?

I'm unaware.