Do testosterone boosters really work?

[curly2004]

I am pretty much stuck at 188 and my body is not building anymore muscle. I have used cellmass, and OP Whey but my body is not developing anymore. I want to try a few new supplements before im 25 and start to juice. So would you recommend a test booster and which seems to be good. I am trying to get to 200-215lbs.

[TrainOfThought]

I am pretty much stuck at 188 and my body is not building anymore muscle. I have used cellmass, and OP Whey but my body is not developing anymore. I want to try a few new supplements before im 25 and start to juice. So would you recommend a test booster and which seems to be good. I am trying to get to 200-215lbs.

id try upping your calories before anything....and maybe switch up the routine

[_Translucency]

I am pretty much stuck at 188 and my body is not building anymore muscle. I have used cellmass, and OP Whey but my body is not developing anymore. I want to try a few new supplements before im 25 and start to juice. So would you recommend a test booster and which seems to be good. I am trying to get to 200-215lbs.

Post a sample of your diet, training regimine, average sleep, and supplement experience. I think it is unwise to recommend you a testosterone booster without first examining these other aspects of your training.

[DR_P]

I am pretty much stuck at 188 and my body is not building anymore muscle. I have used cellmass, and OP Whey but my body is not developing anymore. I want to try a few new supplements before im 25 and start to juice. So would you recommend a test booster and which seems to be good. I am trying to get to 200-215lbs.

There are several types of test-booster.

Type 1: "Classic herbal Test booster".
Typically, these testboosters rely on tribulus terrestris, mostly combined with some other herbs such as Avena Sativa, Maca or others.
While some people report increased libido, there is no sufficient scientific evidence that would show that such product can indeed elevate testosterone, let alone help with body transformation.


Type 2: Anti-aromatase based test-booster
Typically, these products contain steroidal anti-aromatase substances (e.g. ATD, 6-oxo, 6-Bromo, etc.). Studies show that these products can indeed significantly increase free testosterone, total testosterone and DHT. However, these products are not without problems.

First problem: Some of these products (namely: ATD) may show false-positive results of testosteronemsince they have been shown to interact with testosterone essays.

Second problem: None of these products have ever shown to help with building muscle mass. One study suggested that ATD might be helpful to get leaner. But there is no evidence that you would improve mass gains from them. There are several possible explanations for that: A dysproportionate lag of estrogen levels might prevent an appropriate increase of IGF-1 levels. Moreover, these substances (especially ATD) may have anti-androgen effects at some sites and thus they could potentially counteract the pro-anabolic effects of increased test-levels.

Third problem:
Problems with sore joints and decreased libido. Many users report a dose-dependent increase of joint pain and a drop in libido / erectile dysfunction when taking ATD and (to a lesser degree) 6-oxo / 6-Bromo



Type 3: Resveratrol and T. alatus based Test-booster
While there is little human research so far on this type of test-boosters, animal research and anecdotal feedback suggest that the effects are extremely beneficial. Proabaly, Resveratrol and T. alatus have effects similar to popular SERMs (minus their side effects) and increase testicular testosterone production. Moreover, many users report significant improvements of mood, drive, and well-being. Some people > 30y report rejuvenation-like effects on body and mind from this type of products. Another noteworthy effect is a reduction in inflammatory conditions such as joint or head ache. Importantly, this type of test-boosters does not cause a hormonal imbalance such as Type 2 (anti-aromatase) test-boosters, which lead to a large and non-physiological dissociation between test/DHT and estrogen levels. Instead, testosterone and estrogen are being "rebalanced" in the most favorable way that supports overall health and a pro-anabolic environment.
In contrast to Type 4 test bossters (Divanil based), we have largely an increase of total testosterone, which indicates a true increase of testosterone production and not just a mere temporary liberation of free testosterone.


Type 4: "Divanil based Test-booster"
Divanil is a special substance extracted from stinging nettle root. It binds to SHBG and displaces testosterone (and estradiol). By that it increases acutely free testosterone levels. A too large dose of Divanil can however negatively affect HPTA and lead to reduced production of testosterone. That's why Divanil should ideally be only a minor part in a test-booster formulation.

[khergan]

At 5'11, you are definitely not maxed out of your genetic weight potential at 188 lbs. I'm thinking you need to up your diet rather than turn to test boosters and all that. Most people who think they're eating enough generally aren't... you need to eat to the point where you're stuffed constantly.

If you need help in that department, CL makes a supp that supposedly makes you hungrier called "Black Hole". I honestly don't know how effective it is, but you could do a search and see what turns up.

[NO HYPE]

There are several types of test-booster.

Type 1: "Classic herbal Test booster".
Typically, these testboosters rely on tribulus terrestris, mostly combined with some other herbs such as Avena Sativa, Maca or others.
While some people report increased libido, there is no sufficient scientific evidence that would show that such product can indeed elevate testosterone, let alone help with body transformation.


Type 2: Anti-aromatase based test-booster
Typically, these products contain steroidal anti-aromatase substances (e.g. ATD, 6-oxo, 6-Bromo, etc.). Studies show that these products can indeed significantly increase free testosterone, total testosterone and DHT. However, these products are not without problems.

First problem: Some of these products (namely: ATD) may show false-positive results of testosteronemsince they have been shown to interact with testosterone essays.

Second problem: None of these products have ever shown to help with building muscle mass. One study suggested that ATD might be helpful to get leaner. But there is no evidence that you would improve mass gains from them. There are several possible explanations for that: A dysproportionate lag of estrogen levels might prevent an appropriate increase of IGF-1 levels. Moreover, these substances (especially ATD) may have anti-androgen effects at some sites and thus they could potentially counteract the pro-anabolic effects of increased test-levels.

Third problem:
Problems with sore joints and decreased libido. Many users report a dose-dependent increase of joint pain and a drop in libido / erectile dysfunction when taking ATD and (to a lesser degree) 6-oxo / 6-Bromo



Type 3: Resveratrol and T. alatus based Test-booster
While there is little human research so far on this type of test-boosters, animal research and anecdotal feedback suggest that the effects are extremely beneficial. Proabaly, Resveratrol and T. alatus have effects similar to popular SERMs (minus their side effects) and increase testicular testosterone production. Moreover, many users report significant improvements of mood, drive, and well-being. Some people > 30y report rejuvenation-like effects on body and mind from this type of products. Another noteworthy effect is a reduction in inflammatory conditions such as joint or head ache. Importantly, this type of test-boosters does not cause a hormonal imbalance such as Type 2 (anti-aromatase) test-boosters, which lead to a large and non-physiological dissociation between test/DHT and estrogen levels. Instead, testosterone and estrogen are being "rebalanced" in the most favorable way that supports overall health and a pro-anabolic environment.
In contrast to Type 4 test bossters (Divanil based), we have largely an increase of total testosterone, which indicates a true increase of testosterone production and not just a mere temporary liberation of free testosterone.


Type 4: "Divanil based Test-booster"
Divanil is a special substance extracted from stinging nettle root. It binds to SHBG and displaces testosterone (and estradiol). By that it increases acutely free testosterone levels. A too large dose of Divanil can however negatively affect HPTA and lead to reduced production of testosterone. That's why Divanil should ideally be only a minor part in a test-booster formulation.

Very useful information. Welcome home Dr.P!

[NO HYPE]

Divanil is a special substance extracted from stinging nettle root. It binds to SHBG and displaces testosterone (and estradiol). By that it increases acutely free testosterone levels. A too large dose of Divanil can however negatively affect HPTA and lead to reduced production of testosterone. That's why Divanil should ideally be only a minor part in a test-booster formulation.

Noted.

[Sldge]

There are several types of test-booster.

Type 1: "Classic herbal Test booster".
Typically, these testboosters rely on tribulus terrestris, mostly combined with some other herbs such as Avena Sativa, Maca or others.
While some people report increased libido, there is no sufficient scientific evidence that would show that such product can indeed elevate testosterone, let alone help with body transformation.


Type 2: Anti-aromatase based test-booster
Typically, these products contain steroidal anti-aromatase substances (e.g. ATD, 6-oxo, 6-Bromo, etc.). Studies show that these products can indeed significantly increase free testosterone, total testosterone and DHT. However, these products are not without problems.

First problem: Some of these products (namely: ATD) may show false-positive results of testosteronemsince they have been shown to interact with testosterone essays.

Second problem: None of these products have ever shown to help with building muscle mass. One study suggested that ATD might be helpful to get leaner. But there is no evidence that you would improve mass gains from them. There are several possible explanations for that: A dysproportionate lag of estrogen levels might prevent an appropriate increase of IGF-1 levels. Moreover, these substances (especially ATD) may have anti-androgen effects at some sites and thus they could potentially counteract the pro-anabolic effects of increased test-levels.

Third problem:
Problems with sore joints and decreased libido. Many users report a dose-dependent increase of joint pain and a drop in libido / erectile dysfunction when taking ATD and (to a lesser degree) 6-oxo / 6-Bromo



Type 3: Resveratrol and T. alatus based Test-booster
While there is little human research so far on this type of test-boosters, animal research and anecdotal feedback suggest that the effects are extremely beneficial. Proabaly, Resveratrol and T. alatus have effects similar to popular SERMs (minus their side effects) and increase testicular testosterone production. Moreover, many users report significant improvements of mood, drive, and well-being. Some people > 30y report rejuvenation-like effects on body and mind from this type of products. Another noteworthy effect is a reduction in inflammatory conditions such as joint or head ache. Importantly, this type of test-boosters does not cause a hormonal imbalance such as Type 2 (anti-aromatase) test-boosters, which lead to a large and non-physiological dissociation between test/DHT and estrogen levels. Instead, testosterone and estrogen are being "rebalanced" in the most favorable way that supports overall health and a pro-anabolic environment.
In contrast to Type 4 test bossters (Divanil based), we have largely an increase of total testosterone, which indicates a true increase of testosterone production and not just a mere temporary liberation of free testosterone.


Type 4: "Divanil based Test-booster"
Divanil is a special substance extracted from stinging nettle root. It binds to SHBG and displaces testosterone (and estradiol). By that it increases acutely free testosterone levels. A too large dose of Divanil can however negatively affect HPTA and lead to reduced production of testosterone. That's why Divanil should ideally be only a minor part in a test-booster formulation.

I wondered how long it would take for you to come back as a TL rep. So then if you were formulating Tbol you would have used a lower dose of Divanil because you think its too high?

Just a FYI, all of the blood work done originally for Activate showed an increase in both total and free test. Even at 1.6gms of Divanil per day there wasnt a negative impact on HPTA or testosterone production. At the dose being used in TBOL, its plays a major role not minor.

[nni]

Type 3: Resveratrol and T. alatus based Test-booster
While there is little human research so far on this type of test-boosters, animal research and anecdotal feedback suggest that the effects are extremely beneficial. Proabaly, Resveratrol and T. alatus have effects similar to popular SERMs (minus their side effects) and increase testicular testosterone production. Moreover, many users report significant improvements of mood, drive, and well-being. Some people > 30y report rejuvenation-like effects on body and mind from this type of products. Another noteworthy effect is a reduction in inflammatory conditions such as joint or head ache. Importantly, this type of test-boosters does not cause a hormonal imbalance such as Type 2 (anti-aromatase) test-boosters, which lead to a large and non-physiological dissociation between test/DHT and estrogen levels. Instead, testosterone and estrogen are being "rebalanced" in the most favorable way that supports overall health and a pro-anabolic environment.
In contrast to Type 4 test bossters (Divanil based), we have largely an increase of total testosterone, which indicates a true increase of testosterone production and not just a mere temporary liberation of free testosterone.

actually there is only one of these, so it doesnt warrant its own type, and not surprisingly there are no negatives according to the rep.

[Doughboy]

actually there is only one of these, so it doesnt warrant its own type, and not surprisingly there are no negatives according to the rep.

This is true.

[DR_P]

actually there is only one of these,

there are several resveratrol based products, some of which are explicitely labeled as test-boosters (e.g. Stoked), some of which are combined with a steroidal aromatase inhibitor(s) (e.g. 6-oxo extreme, Reversitol, etc.) or other substances (e.g. T-BOL) and there is a pretty large number of resveratrol-products that are not explicitely being advertised as test-boosters at all (e.g. NOW Natural Resveratrol, LiveLong Nutrition Resveratrol-50, Life Extension Resveratrol Caps, etc.), but to which the proposed mechanisms of action would apply just as well. To my knowledge, T. alatus is exclusively being used in T-BOL (as of yet). resveratrol/T. alatus was used in an interchangable manner, because I believe that they may share similar mechanisms of testosterone stimulation.

and not surprisingly there are no negatives according to the rep.

I am not interested in debates that might lead to tensions between companies. That's why this is gonna be the first and the last time that I'll address this issue: Actually, the chain of causality is inversed by 180 degrees. I decided to join Thermolife Team AFTER I experienced how excellent T-BOL worked for me. (log link in signature) and AFTER I got insight into the mind-blowing pipeline of upcoming new products. So, I am a rep for TL because I love the products and I am not praising the products because I am a rep for TL.


On a serious note, to address your question about adverse effects: I got a few non-significant pimples, and a very slight, almost not noticable increase of hair -turnover, most likely due to slightly ncreased DHT. That's what you'll most probably gt all the time when your test / DHT levels go up.

[Elliptical Envy]

This thread might heat up

[tones3311]

there are several resveratrol based products, some of which are explicitely labeled as test-boosters (e.g. Stoked), some of which are combined with a steroidal aromatase inhibitor(s) (e.g. 6-oxo extreme, Reversitol, etc.) or other substances (e.g. T-BOL) and there is a pretty large number of resveratrol-products that are not explicitely being advertised as test-boosters at all (e.g. NOW Natural Resveratrol, LiveLong Nutrition Resveratrol-50, Life Extension Resveratrol Caps, etc.), but to which the proposed mechanisms of action would apply just as well. To my knowledge, T. alatus is exclusively being used in T-BOL (as of yet). resveratrol/T. alatus was used in an interchangable manner, because I believe that they may share similar mechanisms of testosterone stimulation.




I am not interested in debates that might lead to tensions between companies. That's why this is gonna be the first and the last time that I'll address this issue: Actually, the chain of causality is inversed by 180 degrees. I decided to join Thermolife Team AFTER I experienced how excellent T-BOL worked for me. (log link in signature) and AFTER I got insight into the mind-blowing pipeline of upcoming new products. So, I am a rep for TL because I love the products and I am not praising the products because I am a rep for TL.


On a serious note, to address your question about adverse effects: I got a few non-significant pimples, and a very slight, almost not noticable increase of hair -turnover, most likely due to slightly ncreased DHT. That's what you'll most probably gt all the time when your test / DHT levels go up.

What's hair - turnover? Increased shedding? Does the hairloss caused by the DHT come back after you go off the test booster or is it permanent damage?

[xfiles]

I am pretty much stuck at 188 and my body is not building anymore muscle. I have used cellmass, and OP Whey but my body is not developing anymore. I want to try a few new supplements before im 25 and start to juice. So would you recommend a test booster and which seems to be good. I am trying to get to 200-215lbs.

You're body is not building muscle anymore? Yeah right dude. In the next 5 years you will put on a ****load of muscle. The roids will just **** you up.

[nni]

there are several resveratrol based products, some of which are explicitely labeled as test-boosters (e.g. Stoked), some of which are combined with a steroidal aromatase inhibitor(s) (e.g. 6-oxo extreme, Reversitol, etc.) or other substances (e.g. T-BOL) and there is a pretty large number of resveratrol-products that are not explicitely being advertised as test-boosters at all (e.g. NOW Natural Resveratrol, LiveLong Nutrition Resveratrol-50, Life Extension Resveratrol Caps, etc.), but to which the proposed mechanisms of action would apply just as well. To my knowledge, T. alatus is exclusively being used in T-BOL (as of yet). resveratrol/T. alatus was used in an interchangable manner, because I believe that they may share similar mechanisms of testosterone stimulation.




I am not interested in debates that might lead to tensions between companies. That's why this is gonna be the first and the last time that I'll address this issue: Actually, the chain of causality is inversed by 180 degrees. I decided to join Thermolife Team AFTER I experienced how excellent T-BOL worked for me. (log link in signature) and AFTER I got insight into the mind-blowing pipeline of upcoming new products. So, I am a rep for TL because I love the products and I am not praising the products because I am a rep for TL.


On a serious note, to address your question about adverse effects: I got a few non-significant pimples, and a very slight, almost not noticable increase of hair -turnover, most likely due to slightly ncreased DHT. That's what you'll most probably gt all the time when your test / DHT levels go up.

you combined resveratrol products and thermo's trib into one category, so what i said was true. there is one study of the ta trib and its effects are on free test, so it could belong more into the divanil category. either way, adding it into the res category simply identifies one product and is not its own category. that is the reality of it.

as for the rest, forgive me if i dont take you seriously anymore.

[Sldge]

There are several types of test-booster.

Type 1: "Classic herbal Test booster".
Typically, these testboosters rely on tribulus terrestris, mostly combined with some other herbs such as Avena Sativa, Maca or others.
While some people report increased libido, there is no sufficient scientific evidence that would show that such product can indeed elevate testosterone, let alone help with body transformation.


Type 2: Anti-aromatase based test-booster
Typically, these products contain steroidal anti-aromatase substances (e.g. ATD, 6-oxo, 6-Bromo, etc.). Studies show that these products can indeed significantly increase free testosterone, total testosterone and DHT. However, these products are not without problems.

First problem: Some of these products (namely: ATD) may show false-positive results of testosteronemsince they have been shown to interact with testosterone essays.

Second problem: None of these products have ever shown to help with building muscle mass. One study suggested that ATD might be helpful to get leaner. But there is no evidence that you would improve mass gains from them. There are several possible explanations for that: A dysproportionate lag of estrogen levels might prevent an appropriate increase of IGF-1 levels. Moreover, these substances (especially ATD) may have anti-androgen effects at some sites and thus they could potentially counteract the pro-anabolic effects of increased test-levels.

Third problem:
Problems with sore joints and decreased libido. Many users report a dose-dependent increase of joint pain and a drop in libido / erectile dysfunction when taking ATD and (to a lesser degree) 6-oxo / 6-Bromo



Type 3: Resveratrol based Test-booster
While there is little human research so far on this type of test-boosters, animal research and anecdotal feedback suggest that the effects may be beneficial. Moreover, many users report significant improvements of mood, drive, and well-being. Some people > 30y report rejuvenation-like effects on body and mind from this type of products. Another noteworthy effect is a reduction in inflammatory conditions such as joint or head ache. Importantly, this type of test-boosters does not cause a hormonal imbalance such as Type 2 (anti-aromatase) test-boosters, which lead to a large and non-physiological dissociation between test/DHT and estrogen levels.


Type 4: "Divanil based Test-booster, ie. ACTX and TBOL"
Divanil is a special substance extracted from stinging nettle root. It binds to SHBG and displaces testosterone (and estradiol). By that it increases acutely free testosterone levels. A too large dose of Divanil can however negatively affect HPTA and lead to reduced production of testosterone. That's why Type 4 test bossters (Divanil based), have largely an increase of total testosterone and free testosterone which indicates a true increase of testosterone production.

So then this is actually what you meant to post.

[EVO-PT]

I am pretty much stuck at 188 and my body is not building anymore muscle. I have used cellmass, and OP Whey but my body is not developing anymore. I want to try a few new supplements before im 25 and start to juice. So would you recommend a test booster and which seems to be good. I am trying to get to 200-215lbs.

Just check out some of the reviews on here for - Novedex XT, Stoked, MassFX etc etc - people love these products and have great results with them! - Def worth checking them out!

[Bobby_Flay]

Hyperdrol is 6-bromo based and it says there is no hair loss.

Also, does anyone know if hyperdrol will increase or decrease libido? i assume increase. Im going to start a hyperdrol/activate xtreme stack late December.

[Sldge]

Also, does anyone know if hyperdrol will increase or decrease libido? i assume increase. Im going to start a hyperdrol/activate xtreme stack late December.

Increase (as long as you dont dose it too high) it and especially with ACTX.

[DR_P]

This thread might heat up

I don't think so. We are all adults and certainly able to conduct an interesting and informational debate.

Just a FYI, all of the blood work done originally for Activate showed an increase in both total and free test. Even at 1.6gms of Divanil per day there wasnt a negative impact on HPTA or testosterone production.

What you say is interesting, as the following aspects can't simply be wiped away when the potential effects of Divanil on HPTA axis are being discussed.


1. a theoretical approach, where the main action of Divanil (=displacement of bound testosterone from SHBG) would represent a plausible mechanism to contribute to hypothlamaic/pituitary negative feedback.

2. empirical single case data, such as that one: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=188

Now, I haven't seen any published or independent lab test results on products containing only Divanil, but it is noteworthy that Divanillyltetrahydrofuran is not the only constituent of nettle root extract, especially not when the extract is being labeled to be standardized to 60% (Divanil). Other constituents of such an extract which might display anti-aromatase or anti-5-alpha-reductase activity could easily counteract the negative HPTA feedback caused by (Divanil-induced) increased free testosterone.
Now, 95% Divanillyltetrahydrofuran might possibly be in a different league with regards to its effects on HPTA.

Another important aspect is the short half-time of Divanil and a potential dissociation between chronic and acute effects on total and free test, respectively. I could discuss these issues further on, if there is enough public interest.

[DR_P]

What's hair - turnover? Increased shedding? Does the hairloss caused by the DHT come back after you go off the test booster or is it permanent damage?

a slightly increased number of hairs that I can count in the washbowl after hair-wash. I can't tell you whether its permanent or not.
To my knowledge, DHT is potentially capable of "shrinking" hair follicles, which in the long run could contribute to visible hair-loss.

[willgreenzilla]

a slightly increased number of hairs that I can count in the washbowl after hair-wash. I can't tell you whether its permanent or not.
To my knowledge, DHT is potentially capable of "shrinking" hair follicles, which in the long run could contribute to visible hair-loss.

And this is from the T-BOL?

Guess it's good i've already said good bye to my hair lol.

[DR_P]

So then this is actually what you meant to post.

I purposefully did not name any specific product names but based my proprietary classification solely on generic ingredients.

The main effects of some test-boosters can probably be explained to a large part by Divanil. I believe that T-BOL, however does not at all belong into that category and that the observed increases of total test are mainly due to resveratrol and/or t. alatus.

I think it is important to note that we are performing a theoretical and - to some extent - hypothetical discussion. I have presented my individual evaluation of different - proprietary - classes of test-boosters. It certainly is legitimate to disagree and to propose different hypothetical models.

[DR_P]

And this is from the T-BOL?

Guess it's good i've already said good bye to my hair lol.

Emphasize is on "slight". I have experienced much worse hair shedding from other products, which most probably had largely liberated DHT/testosterone.

[Sldge]

What you say is interesting, as the following aspects can't simply be wiped away when the potential effects of Divanil on HPTA axis are being discussed.


1. a theoretical approach, where the main action of Divanil (=displacement of bound testosterone from SHBG) would represent a plausible mechanism to contribute to hypothlamaic/pituitary negative feedback.

2. empirical single case data, such as that one: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=188

Now, I haven't seen any published or independent lab test results on products containing only Divanil, but it is noteworthy that Divanillyltetrahydrofuran is not the only constituent of nettle root extract, especially not when the extract is being labeled to be standardized to 60% (Divanil). Other constituents of such an extract which might display anti-aromatase or anti-5-alpha-reductase activity could easily counteract the negative HPTA feedback caused by (Divanil-induced) increased free testosterone.
Now, 95% Divanillyltetrahydrofuran might possibly be in a different league with regards to its effects on HPTA.

Another important aspect is the short half-time of Divanil and a potential dissociation between chronic and acute effects on total and free test, respectively. I could discuss these issues further on, if there is enough public interest.

No one said anything about wiping it away. However 1 person with a slight decrease would require a huge leap to assume that all people will be the same, considering other blood work has shown an increase.

The original Activate was a Divanil only product. Blood work was posted and because of that and its great results most companies now use it in their products including TBOL. With the recommended dosing followed and with cycles no longer then 8 weeks of continuous use no one will have a suppressed HPTA.

I purposefully did not name any specific product names but based my proprietary classification solely on generic ingredients.

The main effects of some test-boosters can probably be explained to a large part by Divanil. I believe that T-BOL, however does not at all belong into that category and that the observed increases of total test are mainly due to resveratrol and/or t. alatus.

I think it is important to note that we are performing a theoretical and - to some extent - hypothetical discussion. I have presented my individual evaluation of different - proprietary - classes of test-boosters. It certainly is legitimate to disagree and to propose different hypothetical models.

When you make up a category and there is only a single product produced with the TA, you are specifically naming products. Based on the label there is no way TBOL, with its 4th or 5th ingredient by weight would be considered anything else. Its either res or divanil. Nothing wrong with either one, except for your orig assumption.

[Elliptical Envy]

I don't think so. We are all adults and certainly able to conduct an interesting and informational debate.

I'd rather see it get spicy

[DR_P]

The original Activate was a Divanil only product. Blood work was posted and because of that and its great results most companies now use it in their products including TBOL. With the recommended dosing followed and with cycles no longer then 8 weeks of continuous use no one will have a suppressed HPTA.

You might have missed that part:

... but it is noteworthy that Divanillyltetrahydrofuran is not the only constituent of nettle root extract, especially not when the extract is being labeled to be standardized to 60% (Divanil). Other constituents of such an extract which might display anti-aromatase or anti-5-alpha-reductase activity could easily counteract the negative HPTA feedback caused by (Divanil-induced) increased free testosterone.
Now, 95% Divanillyltetrahydrofuran might possibly be in a different league with regards to its effects on HPTA.

...

Based on the label there is no way TBOL, with its 3 or 4th ingredient by weight would be considered anything else. Its either res or divanil. Nothing wrong with either one, except for your orig assumption.

well, I have no problem to agree to disagree on that. Considering our current ongoing testing of hormonal effects of single components, we will soon have a sufficient amount of data to more precisely show the exact contribution of each component to the observed total effects.

[Sldge]

well, I have no problem to agree to disagree on that. Considering our current ongoing testing of hormonal effects of single components, we will soon have a sufficient amount of data to more precisely show the exact contribution of each component to the observed total effects.

Unless you start selling TA alone it wont matter because it will still be playing a role in an effective, very balanced formula. Either way you're orig post is incorrect because TBOL will still be apart of either the Divanil or Res category. You cant claim that Divanil is playing a minor role in TBOL when it has an effective, active dose. Bane knows the research and is no dummy, its in there for a reason.

[DR_P]

Unless you start selling TA alone it wont matter because it will still be playing a role in an effective, very balanced formula.

T-BOL is indeed a perfectly effective formula that doesn't lead to any non-desired and unfavourable dysbalances of any hormones but rather restores and improves an optimal physiological balance.

Either way you're orig post is incorrect because TBOL will still be apart of either the Divanil or Res category. You cant claim that Divanil is playing a minor role in TBOL when it has an effective, active dose. Bane knows the research and is no dummy, its in there for a reason.

For me, the most important and most noteworthy hormonal effect of T-BOL is its ability to rebalance hormones by increasing total testosterone and simultaneously reduce overshooting estradiol / progesterone levels. This is certainly NOT accomplished by Divanil (95%).

It will of course also increase free test, and this will be the result of increased testosterone production (=increased total testosterone) + increased displacement of testosterone from SHBG. The latter will certainly be substantially impacted by Divanil.

[mrconfusedf]

Sure the ones I take seem to make me angry easily...So yeah they work....And I fell I am shaving allot more...So yeah they work....Maybe a little acne but who knows about that one...