Placebo effect in bodybuilding?

[oprah_winfrey]

Does anyone have an opinion about how significant the placebo effect is in bodybuilding, particularly in regards to the use of supplements?

Any studies done that specifically examine this?

Although controversial to some extent, it's generally thought that the placebo effect can have all manner of real physiological effects in medicine (e.g. giving patients sugar pills can cause illness-related changes on a real physical level if they think it's a real treatment). Seems like an interesting factor in relation to fitness, especially given that gains from training can often be quite slow and even difficult to objectively define in some cases.

[NO HYPE]

Originally Posted by oprah_winfrey

Placebo effect in bodybuilding?

Any studies done that specifically examine this?

Placebo effect explained? Study shows the brain's own endorphins may be responsible.

24 August 2005 - By thinking the pain away, patients can prompt their own brains to release natural pain-relievers, according to a study conducted at the University of Michigan. Published in the August 24th issue of the Journal of Neuroscience by a team from the UM Molecular and Behavioral Neurosciences Institute (MBNI), the study provides the first direct evidence that the brain's own pain-relieving chemicals - called endorphins - play a role in the placebo effect.

The placebo effect is one in which a patient's symptoms are alleviated by an otherwise ineffective treatment because of his or her mere expectation that the treatment will help fight the disease. The results of UM study are the first to show a specific brain chemistry mechanism behind the placebo effect.

"This deals another serious blow to the idea that the placebo effect is a purely psychological, not physical, phenomenon," says Jon-Kar Zubieta, lead author on the paper and an associate professor of psychiatry and radiology at the UM Medical School. "We were able to see that the endorphin system was activated in pain-related areas of the brain, and that activity increased when someone was told they were receiving a medicine to ease their pain. They then reported feeling less pain. The mind-body connection is quite clear."

The study's findings are based on data collected from the brain scans of 14 young, healthy men, who agreed to let researchers inject their jaw muscles with a concentrated salt water solution, causing pain. During the scans, the participants were told that they would be given a drug (in fact, a placebo) that may relieve their pain. Researchers monitored the brain chemistry of the participants using a positron emission tomography (PET) scanner while each injection was given, paying especially close attention to activity of the brain's natural pain-relieving endorphins, called opioids.

Endogenous opioids relieve pain by binding to brain cell receptors called mu-opioid receptors, which stops the transmission of pain signals from one nerve to the next. Researchers monitored the activity of these receptors through the use of an imaging method in which tiny doses of a medicine called carfentanil are attached to a short-lived radioactive form of carbon, which releases subatomic particles known as positrons. The PET scanner detects these positrons, acting like a photographic camera, and determines where they originated from and how many are coming from each region. Because carfentanil also binds to mu-opioid receptors, competing with opioids for space, the PET scans can be used to see how active the opioid system and mu-opioid receptors are.

As the researchers alerted the participants that the placebo was coming, and injected the placebo dose (a small amount of hydrating solution), the level of activation in their mu-opioid endorphin system increased, indicating that more of the opioids were binding to the mu-opioid receptors, and relieving pain. The most pronounced activation occurred in four areas of the brain known to be involved in complex pain processing and response.

Because the study was only conducted on young men, the UM researchers were quick to point out that further studies will be needed to determine whether the effect occurs in women and in people with various illnesses.

In addition to Dr. Zubieta, the research team included MBNI members Joshua Bueller, Lisa Jackson, David Scott and Janyun Xu; radiology professor Robert Koeppe, Ph.D.; Thomas Nichols, Ph.D., an assistant professor of biostatistics in the U-M School of Public Health; and Christian Stohler, formerly of the U-M School of Dentistry and now at the University of Maryland School of Dentistry. http://www.jyi.org/news/nb.php?id=429

[NO HYPE]

Anton J M de Craen (2006). The Placebo Effect and Health: Combining Science and Compassionate Care. BMJ. Jan. 28; 332(7535): 243.

D. Moerman, W Jonas (2002). Deconstructing the Placebo Effect and Finding the Meaning Response. Annals of internal medicine. vol. 136, no6, pp. 471-476 (77 ref.)

[NO HYPE]

Oh noez.... it's the placebo effect!

[SIRT1]

Originally Posted by NO HYPE

Oh noez.... it's the placebo effect!

damn shes ugly

[DaddyR]

Every time I read a cycle log for a PH and see how "jacked" the subject is after their first or second dose, I just have to LOL. Placebo effect is very obviously a HUGE factor in a lot of what we read on bodybuilding forums. That's why we all come to this particular forum - to find references to peer-reviewed scientific studies, prebarably double blind studies with proper controls - that tell us what's really effective versus just B.S.

[quasibatman]

there was a study where:

1.) androgen exposure and exercise - gained most muscle
2.) androgen exposure - gained second most muscle
3.) exercise - gained third most muscle
4.) no exercise - gained least muscle

basically increasing androgens is more effective than exercise

[Cable Curling CincoUno]

Originally Posted by quasibatman

there was a study where:

1.) androgen exposure and exercise - gained most muscle
2.) androgen exposure - gained second most muscle
3.) exercise - gained third most muscle
4.) no exercise - gained least muscle

basically increasing androgens is more effective than exercise

link it up?

[Loomy]

Originally Posted by oprah_winfrey

Does anyone have an opinion about how significant the placebo effect is in bodybuilding, particularly in regards to the use of supplements?

Any studies done that specifically examine this?

only every study man.

the only way you can get accurate results is to compare what you're testing to both placebo and control groups. because of this, every study you look at shows that control is here, placebo is above that, and if you're lucky, the test group is a bit above that. every comprehensive study.

we spend half our time just trying to design studies that remove the influence of placebo

[pretecsh]

I have a buddy that has his ACE, ACSM, NASM, and NSCA certifications that told me one time that a LARGE amount (I don't remember the % and don't want to mess it up) of the effects from steroids come from the psychological perceptions.

ie: "I'm on Test and Deca, I can lift this **** easy!"

[The_cannibal]

Originally Posted by pretecsh

I have a buddy that has his ACE, ACSM, NASM, and NSCA certifications that told me one time that a LARGE amount (I don't remember the % and don't want to mess it up) of the effects from steroids come from the psychological perceptions.

ie: "I'm on Test and Deca, I can lift this **** easy!"

Up until the 70's and 80's, doctors believed that muscle gains from AAS were mostly from increased fluid retention and no "real" muscle mass was gained.
From 1987:

Originally Posted by American Medical Association's definitive text on medicinal drugs, Drug Evaluations, Edition 6

Body weight increases with steroid treatment, but much of the gain is due to fluid retention. [...]Studies designed to identify changes in strength in athletes who took steroids have yielded equivocal results.

O'rly? These studies certainly didn't use IFBB pro bb'ers as test subjects.

And there is quite a few studies quoted in the following article:
http://mesomorphosis.com/articles/allen/bizarre.htm

Searching through PubMed and other sources of scientific abstracts, I found a few studies from the late 90's that came to similar conclusions...but they were using 200 mg testosterone enanthate per week...

We now know better. The process of the androgen binding to the androgen receptor, mainly AR-B, is well known and documented (here are 2 PDFs on the subject: http://www.endotext.org/male/male3/male3.pdf and http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut...n/molecula.pdf)

Of course, there is no doubt that something as "mystic" as AAS will have a placebo effect.

[pretecsh]

Originally Posted by The_cannibal

Up until the 70's and 80's, doctors believed that muscle gains from AAS were mostly from increased fluid retention and no "real" muscle mass was gained.
From 1987:

O'rly? These studies certainly didn't use IFBB pro bb'ers as test subjects.

And there is quite a few studies quoted in the following article:
http://mesomorphosis.com/articles/allen/bizarre.htm

Searching through PubMed and other sources of scientific abstracts, I found a few studies from the late 90's that came to similar conclusions...but they were using 200 mg testosterone enanthate per week...

We now know better. The process of the androgen binding to the androgen receptor, mainly AR-B, is well known and documented (here are 2 PDFs on the subject: http://www.endotext.org/male/male3/male3.pdf and http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut...n/molecula.pdf)

Of course, there is no doubt that something as "mystic" as AAS will have a placebo effect.

Yeah I definitely won't argue that AAS are making huge changes in the body. (it is unarguable)

The psychological effect is arguable, but apparent in (if it could be legally measured) many users.

[DaddyR]

For the record, my own post was not intended to say that the effects of AAS were all placebo related.

Rather, exaggerated reports of results sooner than the products could possibly have had any significant effect demonstrate that subjective reports are unreliable. Of course AAS have more than just placebo effects, but many supps that are initially thought to be terrific based on early feedback from the aforementioned uneducated people reporting subjective feelings of being "jacked" are later proven to be useless when people finally start looking at more objective data.

[The_cannibal]

Originally Posted by pretecsh

Yeah I definitely won't argue that AAS are making huge changes in the body. (it is unarguable)

The psychological effect is arguable, but apparent in (if it could be legally measured) many users.

Originally Posted by DaddyR

For the record, my own post was not intended to say that the effects of AAS were all placebo related.

Rather, exaggerated reports of results sooner than the products could possibly have had any significant effect demonstrate that subjective reports are unreliable. Of course AAS have more than just placebo effects, but many supps that are initially thought to be terrific based on early feedback from the aforementioned uneducated people reporting subjective feelings of being "jacked" are later proven to be useless when people finally start looking at more objective data.

Actually, I knew that you guys knew that AAS have more than a placebo effect. But you probably also knew that I knew that you knew.

But I felt like mentionning the fact that, weirdly enough, there have been studies trying to prove the contrary, and that the AMA's stance on the subject was pretty clear about AAS having "no effects on physical performance" ...good for lulz I guess.

[quasibatman]

Originally Posted by Cable Curling CincoUno

link it up?

Originally Posted by quasibatman
there was a study where:

1.) androgen exposure and exercise - gained most muscle
2.) androgen exposure - gained second most muscle
3.) exercise - gained third most muscle
4.) no exercise - gained least muscle

basically increasing androgens is more effective than exercise

[Bioteknik]

placebo effect runs rampant with supps, specially when many of them aren't proven with a well-controlled study(mostly they cite results from an inapplicable study to the target audience). Self-experimentation becomes common and of course everyone is going to believe the "jacked" guy when they say that using this supplement is what got them there

[jackm1]

wtf

[NO HYPE]

Originally Posted by jackm1

wtf

ftw

[dennyzsay]

All supplements have placebo effects working for them. Thats why when you use a supplement, you always have an expectation already of what it should do because of the claims and you will feel it to some extent unless you are out to disprove a supplement's claims wherein even if the stuff works, you wont feel it. The human mind is powerful. And besides, whether placebos play a major role in supplements working or not, as long as the **** helps you does it really matter? Thats just my two cents in the matter.

[NO HYPE]

Originally Posted by dennyzsay

when you use a supplement, you always have an expectation already of what it should do because of the claims

I just read ingredient labels.

[dennyzsay]

Originally Posted by NO HYPE

I just read ingredient labels.

thats good and all. but just knowing the ingredients in it will give you something to expect already because you know what the ingredients are supposed to do. so regardless, the placebo effect will still play a role.

[NO HYPE]

Originally Posted by dennyzsay

thats good and all. but just knowing the ingredients in it will give you something to expect already because you know what the ingredients are supposed to do.

So should we attribute asprin's effects to the fact that we know what it's mechanism of action is?

Originally Posted by dennyzsay

so regardless, the placebo effect will still play a role.

I disagree. Although the placebo effect is universially recognized.... it is an individualistic phenomenon.

[dennyzsay]

Originally Posted by NO HYPE

So should we attribute asprin's effects to the fact that we know what it's mechanism of action is?





I disagree. Although the placebo effect is universially recognized.... it is an individualistic phenomenon.

Personally, I believe that the placebo effect, is in effect in most if not all medications we take. Not to say that these medications or supplements dont work. But your mind believing it does or doesn't will have an effect on the person. I agree though it is an individualistic phenomenon.

[chenknights]

Placebo effect are generally caused by steroids-based bodybuilding supplements - basic side effect. Why suffer when you can have it safer through natural means, plus you feel you're getting stronger and healthier everyday. try some products of the following site and this will be your turning point of make believe.

http://elitebody.com.au/index.html