Uneducated, unskilled GM losers are about to get a reality check

[IndyMillionaire]

Baby Boomers. Its about to happen to Japan too.

[slackdaddy]

The problem with the big 3 is loss of market share resulting in less income which highlights their biggest expenses as their biggest burdens.

If you make $3000 a month with a $1000 a month house payment, the house is not a burden. If your salary is cut to $1500 a month, the house is now your biggest problem because it is your biggest expense although the cost of the house did not change.

When the big 3 were selling lots of cars, the labor costs were not a problem because they were offset by a large income but now that they have lost market share, the labor costs=house payment with loss of income.

[Cosmonaut]

The problem with the big 3 is loss of market share resulting in less income which highlights their biggest expenses as their biggest burdens.

If you make $3000 a month with a $1000 a month house payment, the house is not a burden. If your salary is cut to $1500 a month, the house is now your biggest problem because it is your biggest expense although the cost of the house did not change.

When the big 3 were selling lots of cars, the labor costs were not a problem because they were offset by a large income but now that they have lost market share, the labor costs=house payment with loss of income.

If you can no longer afford the $1000 a month house you get a new house and pay only $500. In GMs case they moved into the $500 house and are still paying for the house they no longer live in.

Any way you slice it the union killed all 3 companies.

[slackdaddy]

Cosmonaut: quote is not working because the site is slow tonight.

Labor costs are the house. If you are making good money, you can afford the house, if not, you can't.

You either have to increase income or reduce the house. They both have the same effect on profits.

If you pay your workers 50 cents a day but only make 25 cents a day, you go under. If you pay your workers a $1000 a day but make $3000 a day per worker, you are profitable.

[DanJunior]

The problem with GM is the same problem that affect many other companies that were once successful. There used to be a time when the company was very successful, so they raised everyone's salary because they could afford to reward the workers and distribute the money.

But when harder times came, GM could not just lowers the salaries of their workers. They had to keep paying overpaid wages, even if they lost money.

Many companies with babyboomers have this problem, or will soon have this problem.

[badbart]

There is a $4/hr difference between a unionized GM line work and a non-union Toyota worker.

Factory worker salary is not the reason GM is going bankrupt.

Add benefits:

Average Hourly Salary for Non-Skilled, Assembly Line Worker

GM: $31.35/hour (NOTE: Includes idle workers still on payroll.)
Toyota: $27/hour (NOTE: Includes year-end bonus.)


Average Labor Cost per U.S. Hourly Worker

GM: $73.73
Toyota: $48

http://coldfusion-guy.blogspot.com/2...bor-costs.html

http://nospeedbumps.com/?p=606

DETROIT (AP) - Contract talks between the U.S.-based automakers and the United Auto Workers formally begin next month, but the key issue is already clear: Eliminating the roughly $25-an-hour labor cost gap between Detroit and its Japanese rivals.

http://www3.washingtontimes.com/news...-113138-3351r/

[OatsandSteak]

Ihope you guys never move to northern Canada. You can't find many jobs paying less than 15-16/ hour(fast food included)

[slackdaddy]

The problem with GM is the same problem that affect many other companies that were once successful. There used to be a time when the company was very successful, so they raised everyone's salary because they could afford to reward the workers and distribute the money.

But when harder times came, GM could not just lowers the salaries of their workers. They had to keep paying overpaid wages, even if they lost money.

Many companies with babyboomers have this problem, or will soon have this problem.

Exactly what my 2 posts were saying.

[slackdaddy]

Add benefits:

Average Hourly Salary for Non-Skilled, Assembly Line Worker

GM: $31.35/hour (NOTE: Includes idle workers still on payroll.)
Toyota: $27/hour (NOTE: Includes year-end bonus.)


Average Labor Cost per U.S. Hourly Worker

GM: $73.73
Toyota: $48

http://coldfusion-guy.blogspot.com/2...bor-costs.html

http://nospeedbumps.com/?p=606

DETROIT (AP) - Contract talks between the U.S.-based automakers and the United Auto Workers formally begin next month, but the key issue is already clear: Eliminating the roughly $25-an-hour labor cost gap between Detroit and its Japanese rivals.

http://www3.washingtontimes.com/news...-113138-3351r/

The reason that your salary per hour and your cost per hour in so different is because of the legacy costs of retired workers. There are more retired workers at the big 3 than there are actual working workers adding profit to the company.

Since Toyota has a defined contribution pension vs. the big 3's defined benefits plan, once Toyota pays their share, their cost is covered no matter what happens in the future.

[tts0lid]

The problem with GM is the same problem that affect many other companies that were once successful. There used to be a time when the company was very successful, so they raised everyone's salary because they could afford to reward the workers and distribute the money.

But when harder times came, GM could not just lowers the salaries of their workers. They had to keep paying overpaid wages, even if they lost money.

Many companies with babyboomers have this problem, or will soon have this problem.

You sir are exactly correct. The thing is that everyone assumes its only the unions that are overpaid. Everyone, including management is overpaid at those companies. The CEO's are the most grossly overpaid of anyone. So when people realize what needs to be done, no one wants to compromise on what they are getting, because they point to the top of the pyramid and ask "why doesn't he have to sacrifice?" Chrylser made it back into profitability after 1979, but everyone, management and all, had to make huge concessions in what they were making.

[19george]

As some have shown previously in this thread, the primary problem isn't the hourly wage. Its the extra commitment that is made to these workers.

The principle problem that GM has (in terms of its labor force) is its large amount of retired employees that it must pay pension to. This is also a big reason why states are quickly running out of money now.

Also, on a side note I'd like to say f*ck you to the maker of this thread for naming it what he did. GM employees are still WORKING productive members of this country, and should be respected at least for that.

[KRANE]

KRANE, your comparison of Union backed auto workers to models is flawed because of the amount of each that exist in the market. Product models also cannot slow down the economy as well.

On the contrary, it is your assertation that is flawed. Go back and read the OP's original thread title and assertion. My comparison is consistant with that.

anyone can do that, but others can do it better and people will pay a premium for the best.

I don't know if you are joking but 'paided' is not a word.

No it's not a joke it called a typo (something that happens with everyone from time to time) although, I'm very forgiving and tend to overlook them from others unless they grossly effect the understanding of the thread. Was that the case here?

In any event, maybe I should try to limit how many things I try to do on the computer at once? As for the my comparison, despite of your extreme analysis, it is still valid.

The big 3 car companies simply cannot afford to pay workers as much as they are indefinitely.

Funny how it doesn't seem to be effecting their salaries?

The problem with the big 3 is loss of market share resulting in less income which highlights their biggest expenses as their biggest burdens.

If you make $3000 a month with a $1000 a month house payment, the house is not a burden. If your salary is cut to $1500 a month, the house is now your biggest problem because it is your biggest expense although the cost of the house did not change.

When the big 3 were selling lots of cars, the labor costs were not a problem because they were offset by a large income but now that they have lost market share, the labor costs=house payment with loss of income.

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going."

Aren't these guys suppose to be the smart college educated ones? Maybe they should resign?

The problem with GM is the same problem that affect many other companies that were once successful. There used to be a time when the company was very successful, so they raised everyone's salary because they could afford to reward the workers and distribute the money.

But when harder times came, GM could not just lowers the salaries of their workers. They had to keep paying overpaid wages, even if they lost money.

Many companies with babyboomers have this problem, or will soon have this problem.

From my view (and I think many others), it's the corporate heads that are "overpaid!"

Chrylser made it back into profitability after 1979, but everyone, management and all, had to make huge concessions in what they were making.

So hows about a little belt-tightening in this occasion?

[Chris A]

you jealous brah? Yer no better than them with yer ****in education. Elitist prick.

[1devil]

It's kind of interesting to not that Japanese auto companies have managed to negotioate no strike clauses with British uinions. No other foreign auto firms have succeed in this regard. How did the Japanese manage this? They gave into two requests from the unions. No executive lunchrooms, and no specific executive bathrooms.

[randomhero97]

UAW and an inferior product killed the auto makers. I will never buy an UAW made automobile. I'm very happy with my American made Toyota Tacoma.

[codhead]

Come on people. Certain people get paid more than others because they have specialized skills that create value...Darren Sproles gets paid $1.1 million/yr because he is one of the 30 or so people in the entire world that is good enough to be a highly-skilled running back that would start at most franchises. Models get paid decent money because not everyone can be a damn model. Sure everyone can do what they physically do, but who wants a slob model? Same thing with ceo's, scientists, doctors, attorneys, accountants, and so on and so forth. As for the uaw workers, geez allfukcin mighty, i'm sure there's a couple million people in sc that would gladly do the same work for $10/hr who are fully capable of doing it. It's just how society works.

[rammstein2k]

[QUOTE=viking06;248257851]

i heard the same

well u usually start out on third shift(at night). most of those guys have families they never see. mandantory overtime that is never consistent. and the possibility of losing ur job if the market doesnt look promising

aka every other job. STFU!
Unions do more harm than good economically and socially. Abuse their ****ing powers!!

[gumbyonroids]

[QUOTE=rammstein2k;249275631]

aka every other job. STFU!
Unions do more harm than good economically and socially. Abuse their ****ing powers!!

Back up your talk. If workers making more money is going to destroy companies, then refuse to take any raises. In fact, go ask for a pay cut. You won't. No, you'll just bitch that others are making too much money.

Edit: NM, you're 20. You probably don't have a full time job and/or any real responsibilities.

[FullSack]

you jealous brah? Yer no better than them with yer ****in education. Elitist prick.

we'll see who's better when their unskilled ass gets thrown on the scrap heap

[markymark69]

Yea, he's just nuts and wrong (as he is a lot). Tons of links in this thread refute his idea that they're making about the same.

.....look at the links that people posted comparing GM to Toyota:
Everyone of you guys is quoting

Average Labor Cost per U.S. Hourly Worker
GM:$73.73 Toyota: $48

You guys do realize there is a difference between labor cost...versus labor salary??!!

Quote from the EXACT same article:

Average Hourly Salary for Non-Skilled, Assembly Line Worker
GM:
$31.35/hour
NOTE: Includes idle workers still on payroll and those on protected status.
Toyota:
$27/hour
NOTE: Includes year-end bonus.

For the uninitiated labor costs include salary and fringe benefits (ie: medical/dental/retirement/etc)


People want to blame unions? Once again...management had a choice when signing the union contracts.

Im hardly ever on the forums anymore and honestly dont miss it. Its next to impossible to have a reasoned debate.

[kobrien21]

I make brake pads for the American working man. Because that's who I am and that's who I care about. - Tom Zalinsky

[tmac4real]

.....look at the links that people posted comparing GM to Toyota:
Everyone of you guys is quoting


You guys do realize there is a difference between labor cost...versus labor salary??!!

Quote from the EXACT same article:


For the uninitiated labor costs include salary and fringe benefits (ie: medical/dental/retirement/etc)


People want to blame unions? Once again...management had a choice when signing the union contracts.

Im hardly ever on the forums anymore and honestly dont miss it. Its next to impossible to have a reasoned debate.

People are blaming unions for the cost of labor for GM, not for the collapse of GM. Management not finding cheaper labor is the reason for the failure of the company, unions are the reason for the expensive labor.

[markymark69]

Add benefits:

Average Hourly Salary for Non-Skilled, Assembly Line Worker

GM: $31.35/hour (NOTE: Includes idle workers still on payroll.)
Toyota: $27/hour (NOTE: Includes year-end bonus.)


Average Labor Cost per U.S. Hourly Worker

GM: $73.73
Toyota: $48

http://coldfusion-guy.blogspot.com/2...bor-costs.html

http://nospeedbumps.com/?p=606

DETROIT (AP) - Contract talks between the U.S.-based automakers and the United Auto Workers formally begin next month, but the key issue is already clear: Eliminating the roughly $25-an-hour labor cost gap between Detroit and its Japanese rivals.

http://www3.washingtontimes.com/news...-113138-3351r/

Im well aware they are factoring benefits....
but lets look at what GM/Ford/Chrysler are competing against: With the exception of their personnel in north America...Toyota/Honda/Nissan employees enjoy free healthcare compliments of the Japanese government.

In terms of average labor costs you cannot compare the two companies.

To show you what a difference government subsidized healthcare makes in your bottom line: Look at GM/Fords balance sheet in the european operations and then get back to me.

[markymark69]

People are blaming unions for the cost of labor for GM, not for the collapse of GM. Management not finding cheaper labor is the reason for the failure of the company, unions are the reason for the expensive labor.

Really? Did the union bosses hold a gun to the head of GM's chief negotiator and made him agree to the union contract? Had no idea....


So let me get this straight...If I agree to pay an electrician $40k to install a light socket...its his unions fault for me paying him that amount...or is it my fault for agreeing to that price?
You are really going to blame the electrician and not my own stupidity?

[jadedkarma]

you are an idiot the problems arnt the over paid workers its the over paid higher ups

when they went to Washington (the heads of gm ) to ask for bailout money
they flew in a private jet

this is just like when tweeter gave out 26 milion in bonus to higher ups then declared bankruptcy a week later

there's nothing wrong with using a private jet.

GM employes over 200,000 people, and their CEO is responsible to all of them. using a private jet allows executives to be in communication with their people when they are in the air and to be more productive.

you cant put a dollar figure on important people's time. they use things like private jets to create more time in the day, because thats how important they are.

the congressman were just grandstanding and probably jealous they dont ride around like they do.

[Spetsnazos]

there's nothing wrong with using a private jet.

GM employes over 200,000 people, and their CEO is responsible to all of them. using a private jet allows executives to be in communication with their people when they are in the air and to be more productive.

you cant put a dollar figure on important people's time. they use things like private jets to create more time in the day, because thats how important they are.

the congressman were just grandstanding and probably jealous they dont ride around like they do.

an example of someone brainwashed by the bourgeois

[jadedkarma]

an example of someone brainwashed by the bourgeois

care to explain why

[AboveAverage]

$19/hr is ridiculous to pay for any HS graduate w/ no experience. WOW, what is that, like 40k/yr?

$24 / h for driving a forklift (3 years until u go from 14-24 though)

[tmac4real]

Really? Did the union bosses hold a gun to the head of GM's chief negotiator and made him agree to the union contract? Had no idea....


So let me get this straight...If I agree to pay an electrician $40k to install a light socket...its his unions fault for me paying him that amount...or is it my fault for agreeing to that price?
You are really going to blame the electrician and not my own stupidity?

Did you miss the part where I said the management is to blame for signing for expensive labor? But to question WHY the labor is expensive, it's the unions.

Go reread my post again.

[Eh?]

Unions have lived past their use. They're a burden now.