Making my biceps WIDER?

[Majjb]

hammer grip pull ups maybe ?

[LevroneFan2002]

Supinated = Biceps Brachii
Neutral = Brachialis
Pronated = Brachioradialis

All three are needed IMO for complete development of the elbow flexors.

[Defiant1]

Supinated = Biceps Brachii
Neutral = Brachialis
Pronated = Brachioradialis

All three are needed IMO for complete development of the elbow flexors.

No.

[LevroneFan2002]

the hammer curl is the closest exercise you can get to isolating the brachialis muscle.

Yep, hammer curls for brachialis, due to the neutral grip.

[Defiant1]

Yep, hammer curls for brachialis, due to the neutral grip.

EMG says otherwise.

[LevroneFan2002]

No.

Why no?

[LevroneFan2002]

EMG says otherwise.

Don't care about that, I do hammer curls and my brachialis is fried from them, it's very obvious this is the part worked. Supinated curls fry my biceps. Reverse curls my forearm. Same thing with back work.

What does EMG say?

[Tyciol]

I like the different curls just because of how they differently affect the wrist joint and finger muscles if anything, lol.

[Defiant1]

Why no?

First, because a muscle CAN do something, or an articulation is part of the muscles function, does not mean that performing this articulation always makes the muscle more active relative to other articulations.

Second, EMG evidence shows that a partially supinated grip (curl bar) can activate the biceps as much or more than a supinated grip. (Tesch, Bompa et al)

Brachialis only shows moderate effort during a hammer curl according (Tesch)

SPEED of movement seems to activate bicep vs brachialis in forearm flexion.

[Defiant1]

Don't care about that, I do hammer curls and my brachialis is fried from them, it's very obvious this is the part worked. Supinated curls fry my biceps. Reverse curls my forearm. Same thing with back work.

What does EMG say?

Could be.

But true for you doesn't mean true for everyone.

If you want to post anecdote as advice then I am all for it.

At least post evidence if you are going to state something as fact.

[LevroneFan2002]

First, because a muscle CAN do something, or an articulation is part of the muscles function, does not mean that performing this articulation always makes the muscle more active relative to other articulations.

Second, EMG evidence shows that a partially supinated grip (curl bar) can activate the biceps as much or more than a supinated grip. (Tesch, Bompa et al)

Brachialis only shows moderate effort during a hammer curl according (Tesch)

SPEED of movement seems to activate bicep vs brachialis in forearm flexion.

I have to disagree, if you did hammer curls you would see that the brachialis is the main muscle worked, it totally frys my brachialis.

And I did not comment on partially supinated, I talked about supinated, neutral and pronated. All three work a different elbow flexor each.

I would guess that EZ BB Curls (partially supinated, it's angled, right?) would share the stress between biceps and brachialis, but I don't do these so cannot state that for sure.

It may also worth noting that exrx.net has studies saying preacher curls work the brachialis as main mover. Yet it's fully supinated and just canes my biceps, like any other supinated curl.

Science is wrong here IMO!

[DiamondDelts]

.

Science is wrong here IMO!

Get 'em bro!

[LevroneFan2002]

Could be.

But true for you doesn't mean true for everyone.

If you want to post anecdote as advice then I am all for it.

At least post evidence if you are going to state something as fact.

It's just from training and from other members, I know what muscles are worked after doing the exercises. But the science studies conflict with each other and have pretty poor results. One saying preacher curls for brachialis, another saying hammer curls do mdoerate work for brachialis, etc. Both are nonsense IMO, because preacher curls isolate the biceps, and hammer curls mainly do the brachialis.

[Mindi912]

And I did not comment on partially supinated, I talked about supinated, neutral and pronated. All three work a different elbow flexor each.

LOL he's know you didn't comment on partially supinated he said EMG would disagree with your statement.

You said supinated

EMG said partially supinated - EMG evidence shows that a partially supinated grip (curl bar) can activate the biceps as much or more than a supinated grip. (Tesch, Bompa et al)

[Defiant1]

I have to disagree, if you did hammer curls you would see that the brachialis is the main muscle worked, it totally frys my brachialis.

And I did not comment on partially supinated, I talked about supinated, neutral and pronated. All three work a different elbow flexor each.

I would guess that EZ BB Curls (partially supinated, it's angled, right?) would share the stress between biceps and brachialis, but I don't do these so cannot state that for sure.

It may also worth noting that exrx.net has studies saying preacher curls work the brachialis as main mover. Yet it's fully supinated and just canes my biceps, like any other supinated curl.

Science is wrong here IMO!

A few points:

It is not "either/or", it is about emphasis.

Exrx doesn't have "studies" that say that preacher curls work the brachialis as a primary. They make that statement. That is not the same as a study. At least the last time I looked.

Again, if you want to say it is your experience, then fine. Bompa/Cornacchia (the ones who did the most used "emg" study) acknowledge that individuals will vary in terms of exercise/muscle use.

[Defiant1]

It's just from training and from other members, I know what muscles are worked after doing the exercises. But the science studies conflict with each other and have pretty poor results. One saying preacher curls for brachialis, another saying hammer curls do mdoerate work for brachialis, etc. Both are nonsense IMO, because preacher curls isolate the biceps, and hammer curls mainly do the brachialis.

You are confusing "statement" and "study".

Show me a study saying that the brachialis is the prime mover during a preacher curl.

Those who actually studied what causes different bicep/brachialis activation found that it was MOVEMENT SPEED more than any other factor that caused emphasis on one or the other.

[LevroneFan2002]

A few points:

It is not "either/or", it is about emphasis.

Exrx doesn't have "studies" that say that preacher curls work the brachialis as a primary. They make that statement. That is not the same as a study. At least the last time I looked.

Again, if you want to say it is your experience, then fine. Bompa/Cornacchia (the ones who did the most used "emg" study) acknowledge that individuals will vary in terms of exercise/muscle use.

I agree it's not purely either/or, but it's very close to that, each type of curl really hits a certain elbow flexor hard, I don't feel it shared. It's clear to me that a bicep curl or preacher curl do my biceps, hammers my brachialis, reverse my forearm.

Exrx makes its statement about preacher curls working the brachialis based on studies., which is nonsense because in that position the curl motion and your biceps are directly in-line with each other (supinated).

Check it for yourself. It's nonsense, just like that EMG study is nonsense. Just like squat for big arms is nonsense. Or that decline dumbell presses are best for chest. LOL.

[buffgrk]

Get 'em bro!

ROFL


Go Go Go Levrone, you correct him mate!

[buffgrk]

It's just from training and from other members, I know what muscles are worked after doing the exercises. But the science studies conflict with each other and have pretty poor results. One saying preacher curls for brachialis, another saying hammer curls do mdoerate work for brachialis, etc. Both are nonsense IMO, because preacher curls isolate the biceps, and hammer curls mainly do the brachialis.

post some pics up of your body with those big branches coming off your torso, you must be pretty monstrous


jus curious' you seem to know alot about training and all.. you must be like 300pounds shredded

[LevroneFan2002]

post some pics up of your body with those big branches coming off your torso, you must be pretty monstrous

I have posted arm pics.

[LevroneFan2002]

You are confusing "statement" and "study".

Show me a study saying that the brachialis is the prime mover during a preacher curl.

Those who actually studied what causes different bicep/brachialis activation found that it was MOVEMENT SPEED more than any other factor that caused emphasis on one or the other.

"The brachialis becomes more readily activated during isometric elbow flexion. During a dynamic elbow flexion, the biceps is more readily activated than the brachialis. (Tax et al., 1989)" - Preacher curls, ROFL.

It's just BS, all three types of grip work a different elbow flexor. It's not like you can do one and have equal development and strength in all the elbow flexors. People don't do hammers and reverse curls because their knowledge is limited to biceps. You need all three for full development.

[buffgrk]

I have posted arm pics.

where are they?.. could you put some pics up in your bodyspace?..
i just wanna see what a perfectly proportioned bber should look like

[DiamondDelts]

"I'm lovin' it"

Lol.

[SSK1903]

Those who actually studied what causes different bicep/brachialis activation found that it was MOVEMENT SPEED more than any other factor that caused emphasis on one or the other.

Mel Siff arrived at this conclusion as well.

[LevroneFan2002]

where are they?.. could you put some pics up in your bodyspace?..
i just wanna see what a perfectly proportioned bber should look like

No such thing as a perfectly proportioned BBer. Nor have I claimed to be.

All I claim in this thread is that each type of grip primarily works a different elbow flexor. If I need 40" arms for that then so be it.

My brachialis is slightly underdeveloped because I haven't been doing enough hammer curls. Phil put me on the right path though and already they are looking a little thicker, even on a cut.

[buffgrk]

No such thing as a perfectly proportioned BBer. Nor have I claimed to be.

All I claim in this thread is that each type of grip primarily works a different elbow flexor. If I need 40" arms for that then so be it.

My brachialis is slightly underdeveloped because I haven't been doing enough hammer curls. Phil put me on the right path though and already they are looking a little thicker, even on a cut.

oh ok, but we still wanna see the man behind the curtain.

[Defiant1]

"The brachialis becomes more readily activated during isometric elbow flexion. During a dynamic elbow flexion, the biceps is more readily activated than the brachialis. (Tax et al., 1989)" - Preacher curls, ROFL.

It's just BS, all three types of grip work a different elbow flexor. It's not like you can do one and have equal development and strength in all the elbow flexors. People don't do hammers and reverse curls because their knowledge is limited to biceps. You need all three for full development.

You keep mentioning the exrx study about preachers. I don't. What STUDY are you talking about? Without the study, that is quite a straw-man.

The STUDIES that I refer to (Bompa/Cornacchia; Tesch) show the Preacher curl to be one of the best OVERALL (in terms of both heads) bicep exercises.


I agree with what you are saying in terms of using multiple angles to train the arms, but I think you are over-simplifying with your "supinated, pronated and neutral" statements. The biceps are a two headed muscle, and bi-articulate. This is before discussing further compartmentalization which is evidenced.

Your description also limits people. For most people, a fully supinated grip focuses on the SHORT head of the biceps. In order to hit the long head a hammer grip will be better.

There are other factors, e.g. relative angle of elbow to body, speed of movement, resistance curve etc.

[LevroneFan2002]

You keep mentioning the exrx study about preachers. I don't. What STUDY are you talking about? Without the study, that is quite a straw-man.

The STUDIES that I refer to (Bompa/Cornacchia; Tesch) show the Preacher curl to be one of the best OVERALL (in terms of both heads) bicep exercises.


I agree with what you are saying in terms of using multiple angles to train the arms, but I think you are over-simplifying with your "supinated, pronated and neutral" statements. The biceps are a two headed muscle, and bi-articulate. This is before discussing further compartmentalization which is evidenced.

Your description also limits people. For most people, a fully supinated grip focuses on the SHORT head of the biceps. In order to hit the long head a hammer grip will be better.

There are other factors, e.g. relative angle of elbow to body, speed of movement, resistance curve etc.

The study used by exrx is apparently one by Tax et al, 1989.

I agree preacher curls are very good, they smoke my biceps really well, but tbh I cannot differentiate between which head got hit harder.

I am not trying to limit people. I was just giving general guidelines. I fully believe hammer curls primarily work the brachialis. I do them every week now and they cane them. Hammer grip back work do as well.

I agree with the last part. But tbh I can do a barbell curl or preacher curl as slow or fast as I want, but the fact that it's fully supinated as my biceps are directly in-line with the motion, means my biceps get caned.

Thanks for your thoughts though.

[LevroneFan2002]

oh ok, but we still wanna see the man behind the curtain.

For now I'm just posting arm pics, since it's relevant to the thread and I only have a ****ty camera phone to use lol.

I may post some pics of my thighs and calves another time, which are better. Arm pics below though.

[Defiant1]

The study used by exrx is apparently one by Tax et al, 1989.

I agree with that study. That is about speed of movement and muscle activation.

I mean the one that makes the brachialis the "prime mover" in a preacher curl.