Why smith machine squats are bad for you...

[DanielBeauchamp]

[GDA]

You should have made it more clear in your first post. No reason to be so negative. Your first post came off that you just randomly came up to a person doing squats in the smith machine, and telling him what to do. I was not the only one to interpret it this way also.

i didn't get that either. its like someone put glass in his tampons or something.

[dtaps24]

EPIC BUMPAGE FTW, lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Norse1308]

There is a use for the Smith Machine... not everyone is healthy enough for free squats, especially older people with back problems or previous injuries, and not everyone needs to do power/deep squats. The most compression on your knee is 90 and past, and on a Smith doing partials I'd like to see a real study showing the knee health of people over a period of time from doing Smith partials compared to deep squats, but chances are it's not too different - and there's a lot less risk of back injury in an inflexible older man. It's basically emulating a leg press which I don't see a real problem with if done right. In a healthy knee, the compression isn't a big deal, and if it was a teenager or young 20-30 something who looks pretty healthy I'd see someone advocating free squats. No piece of equipment is useless, they just have different purposes, and not everyone wants to powerlift or be a strongman. I'm not bashing you at all OP, but I honestly would have kept my mouth shut unless he asked you about squats in particular.

That being said, I will never Smith squat, but I could see why an old man with no previous training would do them.

[Longo118]

I'll refrain from saying what my first reaction to this was. So, I'll say I just saw a 70+ year old man set an American record this last weekend for his master's 4 division. He squated an impressive 500+ lbs @ 220.

Holy sh*t. Thats extremely impressive!

[Harry815]

I just did my first barbell squats yesterday. 40lb barbell on my first day and my legs kill today.

John Cena does 800lb squats.

[blastbeats_stl]

if u can't squat there are better choices than smith machine. just hit hack squats and power squats

[BIGbird61]

Truth is... should a 50 year old man be squatting in general?

..........

[str8flexed]

Truth is... should a 50 year old man be squatting in general?

Tony Conyers is 53.


think before you speak lol

[str8flexed]

I just did my first barbell squats yesterday. 40lb barbell on my first day and my legs kill today.

John Cena does 800lb squats.

no he doesn't.

[prodiboy]

Truth is... should a 50 year old man be squatting in general?

you havnt seen his then
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WjPhcntYKM

[chicago]

There is a use for the Smith Machine... not everyone is healthy enough for free squats, especially older people with back problems or previous injuries, and not everyone needs to do power/deep squats. The most compression on your knee is 90 and past, and on a Smith doing partials I'd like to see a real study showing the knee health of people over a period of time from doing Smith partials compared to deep squats, but chances are it's not too different - and there's a lot less risk of back injury in an inflexible older man. It's basically emulating a leg press which I don't see a real problem with if done right. In a healthy knee, the compression isn't a big deal, and if it was a teenager or young 20-30 something who looks pretty healthy I'd see someone advocating free squats. No piece of equipment is useless, they just have different purposes, and not everyone wants to powerlift or be a strongman. I'm not bashing you at all OP, but I honestly would have kept my mouth shut unless he asked you about squats in particular.

That being said, I will never Smith squat, but I could see why an old man with no previous training would do them.

if you aren't healthy enough to free squat, you aren't healthy enough to squat on a smith machine. it's just that simple. you show me someone who is legitimately not healthy enough to squat and they are at just as high of a risk hurting themselves if they use a smith machine. The opinion that machines are safer than free weights is simply a myth perpetuated by people selling useless fitness gadgets on tv.

[Tyciol]

Need a list of reasons. Our weight room manager whom never works legs only squats in the smith machine and goes down 8 inches with 225 lbs. for his squat day. I saw our security guard who is older doing the same thing and I informed him that it is much better to barbbell squat and the manager just called bull**** even though I told him some facts about it. Need some help so I can bring him a list of reasons why from actual powerlifters.

What 'facts' did you tell the manager? Why are you looking for facts to support an opinion you have already formed rather than seeking them for their own sake to learn?

the bar travels a fixed path not allowing the person using it to use any natural movement which could cause problems for the hips, knees, hip flexors, etc.

Are we supposed to move the barbell any direction other than up during a squat? Can you explain why the hip flexors would experience problems?

BB help stability, works more core muscles and tie in muscles.

That sounds good if this is what people want to train for.

SM really bad on your knees.

How does this work? Is it something that 'can' happen during smith squats, or some kind of inherent unavoidable property?

one reason why smith machine sucks....cuz it makes u look like a puss

It still takes muscle to move weight, if someone was moving decent weight on a smith they would not look like a puss. Who is more impressive, a guy with huge legs moving 400lbs or a guy moving a 100lb free bar?

As others have previously mentioned, the bar is locked into a fixed plane, while you are trying to line up several joints in a straight line (and that never happens).

I thought that was the point of pressing movements.

1. You wind up leaning forward more, which increases the shearing forced on the back (particualarly at the L4 - L5 vertebral joint)
2. Knees wind up in front of you which:
2a: Increases shearing force at the knee joint and
2b: decreases the involvement of the hamstrings, and one of the functions of the hamstrings is to protect the patella tendon during flexion of the quadricep via co-contraction

This sounds like what could happen if you are not perfectly centred under the bar (feet too far back/foreward). If there was a way to properly centre, couldn't both problems be prevented?

3. Skill development. Squatting is a skilled lift. If you are not practicing the skill, you will not get better at it. (This is a very simplified way of describing things like feedback from the proprioceptors, etc.). Or, to put it another way, I do not suppose many big-league home run hitters still hit the ball off of a freakin' T.

Makes sense that smith won't get people much better at free squat compared to free squatting, but skill dev isn't necessarily people's training goal compared to muscle.

4. Pattern overload syndrome.

Couldn't you fix this by training in other movements?

There is a use for the Smith Machine... not everyone is healthy enough for free squats, especially older people with back problems or previous injuries, and not everyone needs to do power/deep squats. The most compression on your knee is 90 and past, and on a Smith doing partials I'd like to see a real study showing the knee health of people over a period of time from doing Smith partials compared to deep squats, but chances are it's not too different

Can you support this 'most compression 90+' claim? I would think the weight people use is also a factor in compression and if people rapidly increase the weight via getting stronger at partials, this would also create high levels of compression. Eventually, compression is something unavoidable when you're talking about pressing movements.

there's a lot less risk of back injury in an inflexible older man.

Why?

It's basically emulating a leg press which I don't see a real problem with if done right.

Except it isn't. A leg press usually has the hips pre-flexed and the entire back is laid flat against a seat when handles for you to brace yourself against. The pressure you exert with your feet can travel right through your glutes into said seat. A smith machine isn't anywhere near as stable for the back, because like a free squat, you rest the bar up near the top of the spine around the shoulder girdle, not at the back of the hips. The smith squat and free squat have far more in common with one another than either does with the leg press does regardless of what people want to claim. The difference in a stabilized path is not anywhere as near as different as the entire form of a leg press.

John Cena does 800lb squats.

no he doesn't.

How much do you figure he lifts? http://www.mensfitness.com/fitness/s...ercises?page=2 claims he does 550+ and deadlifts 600+


A claim here http://www.wrestlingforum.com/genera...mbers-etc.html says at 240 he could:
Bench Press: 505lbs
Squat: 575lbs
Deadlift: 675lbs

http://www.hardnockssouth.com/ has pics of him squatting, deadlifting and doing glute-ham raises. I know his upper body development makes his legs look small by comparison, but perhaps we underestimate him?


claims he's doing 500 squat 545 deadlift in the video. It's not 800 but perhaps he'll get there someday, though probably hard since he's getting older and still has a ridiculous schedule.

[Norse1308]

if you aren't healthy enough to free squat, you aren't healthy enough to squat on a smith machine. it's just that simple. you show me someone who is legitimately not healthy enough to squat and they are at just as high of a risk hurting themselves if they use a smith machine. The opinion that machines are safer than free weights is simply a myth perpetuated by people selling useless fitness gadgets on tv.

Sitting back into partial Smith squats I said. I asked to show me a study where it said deep squats were healthier on knees in the long term than partial Smith squats. I've seen knee rehab therapists use partial squats with a ball against a wall or sitting back in a Smith rack. They must be wrong.

[jdyqf]

Need a list of reasons. Our weight room manager whom never works legs only squats in the smith machine and goes down 8 inches with 225 lbs. for his squat day. I saw our security guard who is older doing the same thing and I informed him that it is much better to barbbell squat and the manager just called bull**** even though I told him some facts about it. Need some help so I can bring him a list of reasons why from actual powerlifters.

Well, first of all, you don't squat in competition with a smith machine, do you. Secondly, it is defeating the purpose of squatting. I know it is still working muscles, but it is perfecting the form FOR you rather than you doing it yourself. A lot of people have troubles with leans and balance. The smith machine does this for you, and honestly, I do not think it will help your form on real squats. You just have to use the damn BB.

[JackTailor]

They aren't bad for you as long as you do them properly...just like any other exercise.

[chicago]

Sitting back into partial Smith squats I said. I asked to show me a study where it said deep squats were healthier on knees in the long term than partial Smith squats. I've seen knee rehab therapists use partial squats with a ball against a wall or sitting back in a Smith rack. They must be wrong.

show me a study where it says partial squats are better for your knees than parallel squats. you can't. period.

[chicago]

show me a study where it says partial squats are better for your knees than parallel squats. you can't. period.

and actually.......


Quoting from Starting Strength (by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore):

In a partial squat, which fails to provide a full stretch for the hamstrings, most of the force against the tibia is upward and forward, from the quardirceps and their attachment to the front of the tibia below the knee. This produces an anterior shear, a forward-directed sliding force, on the knee, with the tiba being pulled forward from the patellar tendon and without a balancing pull from the opposing hamstrings. This shearing force--and the resulting unbalanced strain on the prepatellar area--may be the biggest problem with partial squats. Many spectacular cases of tendinitis have been produced this way, with "squats" getting the blame.

Always take your squats to parallel or below, as deep as you are able while maintaining a good back postion without undue rounding. If you can't get to at least parallel, drop to a weight to where you can, and if you can't get to parallel with no weight, then you need to stop squatting and improve your flexibility.

[chicago]

Won’t Squatting Blow Out My Knees?

If you do them wrong for months, they will. Just like any other weight training exercise (or movement!) will get you injured if you do it wrong long enough. Many idiot personal trainers and “highly educated” (but dumb) doctors will tell you to do half Squats to keep your knees safe. This is the WORST advice ever – you’ll HURT your knees if you do what they say.

Here’s why: your knee joint is strongest in a fully flexed/extended position, not the positions in-between. On top of that, partial Squats only strengthen your quads, not your glutes and hamstrings. That will result in muscle imbalances and injuries. Half reps are also less effective for strength and muscle gains.

[chicago]

and i will say it again.

The opinion that machines are safer than free weights is simply a myth perpetuated by people selling useless fitness gadgets on tv.

[jcameron28]

I thought that was the point of pressing movements.

No, in no pressing movements should the bar have a completely straight path.


The lifter conforms to the machine, and not vice versa. Human motion is dependent on subtle adjustments to joint angle positioning; the body will always want to compensate in the most advantageous position possible. Fix the feet and fix the bar, and the only ways to get this compensation are inappropriate knee tracking and, more dangerously, loss of the neutral spine position. -cressey

[kkaustin812]

I did smith squats for 6 months and got nothing out of it. I tried barbell squats (about half the weight I was doing on the smith machine) and my legs exploded seemingly overnight. I have continued to get bigger and stronger legs and now call smith squats "Sissy Squats."

[BTBAM]

Wait, so you told a guy that one exercise is better than another and you don't know why? Boy do you look like a jackass.

[isaku900]

...seriously people you are responding to a thread that is ALMOST THREE YEARS OLD.

the OP hasn't posted in over a year.

[Norse1308]

show me a study where it says partial squats are better for your knees than parallel squats. you can't. period.

/sigh so in response to my asking for a study you ask me to prove something to you. Great job, idiot, you clearly missed the point.

I'm not saying "go do smith squats," but for a rehabbing person who can't safely do a real one, it's better than nothing...

[chicago]

/sigh so in response to my asking for a study you ask me to prove something to you. Great job, idiot, you clearly missed the point.

I'm not saying "go do smith squats," but for a rehabbing person who can't safely do a real one, it's better than nothing...

and your assumption that smith machine squats are safer is just plain wrong. so who's the idiot again?

[chicago]

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Artic...Squatting.aspx

[EndingLife]

The concept of a human movement being bad for you is wrong. There is no such thing as a movement that is bad for you.... Having bad coordination during the movement is what leads to injuries, not the movement itself. Coordination dictates your posture, not the movement. It's okay to practice postulating yourself in any position or range of motion as long as you maintain proper muscle activation.

[ViKtoricus]

Need a list of reasons. Our weight room manager whom never works legs only squats in the smith machine and goes down 8 inches with 225 lbs. for his squat day. I saw our security guard who is older doing the same thing and I informed him that it is much better to barbbell squat and the manager just called bull**** even though I told him some facts about it. Need some help so I can bring him a list of reasons why from actual powerlifters.

Don't waste your time. Get on a good training program that works, get stronger, and by the time you're squatting a ton, NOBODY would question your methods and words.

I still remember when I nearly squatted 405 pounds in high school. I failed miserably, but NO ONE dared mocking me for failing. NO ONE.

[chicago]

The concept of a human movement being bad for you is wrong. There is no such thing as a movement that is bad for you.... Having bad coordination during the movement is what leads to injuries, not the movement itself. Coordination dictates your posture, not the movement. It's okay to practice postulating yourself in any position or range of motion as long as you maintain proper muscle activation.

definitely agree with this statement. However, the issue is if someone is told by a doctor that they should not squat, some think a safe alternative is a smith machine squat. I disagree. If a person has an injury that precludes them from free squatting, that injury, in my opinion, would preclude them from squatting in a smith. It's the same movement. Because the bar has a fixed path it just changes the lifter's leverages.

Some people think that just because a machine makes it easier to lift heavier weight from point A to point B, that the machine is safer than the free weight alternative. I disagree.