Training Made Simple

[drwink]

Alright, so for those of you looking for how to set up your training program, this is it. The guidelines that we will follow are similar to those of HIT, DC, HST, etc.

We already know that when the body experiences a weight, it will adapt to that weight. So by this respect, multi-set training is not a necessity. One working set that is at a slightly greater intensity than what the body experienced before is PLENTY to encourage muscle adaptation.
REMEMBER!! MUSCLE IS NOT BUILT IN THE GYM! MUSCLE IS BUILT AT REST!
The tools we use in the gym are only a catalyst for muscle adaption.

Also, as previously discussed, we know that if we have enough rest between each working bout, we should always be able to beat our previous workout, meaning that if our range is 8-12, and we got 10 last time, with the same weight should be able to get at least 11.

ALSO! IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH EXPERIENCE IN THE WEIGHT ROOM, YOU SHOULD BE USING MULTIPLE SETS. The same concept of beating the previous workout still applies. However, if the gym experience you have is "I have been training for 3 months" you are not ready for the 1 set protocol. You can do 3 or 4 sets, using your first two or so as warm up sets, but at least one of your sets should beat your previous workout. So, as you can see, even though we are changing the number of sets, the same guidelines still apply.

"Why do I need the multi-set system?" Well, the human body is going to work off of what are called neurological pathways. Simply put, this is just how the brain tells the muscle to contract. Initial strength gains in ANY exercise program are made because of these pathways. Why? Well, the body works like this; the first time we do an exercise, the pathway is not defined. The brain will send a signal to the muscles and tell them how to move. After repeated use, these pathways become more well-defined. After these pathways are completely defined, THEN all of our gains should come from muscular adaptation.
Also, the ability to push yourself to the extent of CONSTANT IMPROVEMENT is not easy. Experience is going to be key in your workouts later on.

So, for the purpose of this sample routine, I will be using ONLY ONE SET per exercise. One warmup set can be performed to prepare the muscle for proper movement, but this warmup set will be performed at a steady controlled pace, only focusing on the concentric and eccentric movements.


Chest:
- Chest Fly - 1 x 8-12
the chest fly should preferably be used with outstretched arms. Every gym
should have some piece of equipment that allows this position. If the arms
are bent to a 90 degree angle, as to touch the elbows and forearms
together, the back will end up rounding out and putting the spine and
musculature in a weakened position.
You should take 2-3 seconds during the concentric phase of the movement
(bringing the arms together) 2-3 seconds squeezing your hands together
for the isometric contraction, and 2-3 seconds on the eccentric contraction
(the way back.)
- Incline chest press - 1 x 8-12
I do not recommend the barbell, as this exercise would restrict the actual
involvement of the chest. Remember, the pectoralis major is responsible for
horizontal shoulder adduction. This just means it will bring the humerus
(upper arm) from an outstretched position (parallel with the ground) all the
way across to the midline of the body. The barbell will not allow the
pectoralis to achieve a full contraction. Any exercise that does allow the
arms to fully extend is acceptable. 2-3 seconds concentric, and 2-3
seconds eccentric. DO NOT REST AT THE TOP. When the arms are fully
extended, the bones in the arm will lock, and all weight will be transfered
from the chest to the skeleton, thereby giving your muscles time to rest.

Back
- Isolation Straight-Arm Pushdown - 1 x 8-12
Using a cable system, keeping the arms straight and the back up tall,
slowly push the bar down toward the thighs. The arms will make a motion
that is similar to a quarter of a circle. 2-3 seconds concentric contraction,
2-3 seconds isometric contraction (by squeezing the bar down against the
thighs as hard as possible) and 2-3 second eccentric contraction.
- Palms UP row - 1 x 8-12
This would be the same position as the normal seated row. Machine based,
or otherwise. 2-3 seconds concentric, 2-3 seconds isometric (holding at
the furthest point) and then 2-3 seconds eccentric.

Legs
- Leg extension - 1 x 8-12
AGAIN -- COMPLETE CONTROL. 2-3 seconds concentric, 2-3 seconds
isometric (holding at the top) and 2-3 seconds eccentric.
- Leg Press - 1 x 8-12
Just like in the chest press, there is no isometric contraction. NEVER LOCK
YOUR KNEES!! 2-3 seconds concentric and 2-3 seconds eccentric.

THIS IS THE CORE of the exercises. Other exercises can be added later or interchanged. Shoulder exercises can include either lateral raises, post delt raises, and shoulder press. Shoulder press is not always the best option though, for a few reasons. The most prominent is that the movement can create an impingement on the rotator cuff. However, if the movement is used, follow the same guidelines, 2-3 concentric, 2-3 eccentric, but no isometric. Also keep in mind that if the movement is only done to a 90 degree bend in the arm, the shoulder isn't actually doing as much work as it should, as the tricep will take over the movement. Lateral raises can be used instead, 2-3 concentric, 2-3 isometric, and 2-3 eccentric. Posterior delt raises, again, should be used with COMPLETE CONTROL. 2-3 concentric, 2-3 isometric, 2-3 eccentric. This is mostly used to prevent shoulder protraction (rounding forward of the shoulders) due to the chest being tight, or overactive.

Extra arm exercises are most likely NOT needed. Many people REALLY over glorify the arms and create what is called synergistic dominance. This just means that in any compound movement, the biceps or triceps (the synergistic muscle group) will dominate the work of the set. By performing our isolations first, followed by our compounds, we eliminate the need for direct arm work. Think of it this way, if we start off with a chest press, the triceps (the much smaller and weaker muscle group) will fail first. If we THEN go to a fly movement, our chest has already been worked to a percentage, and we would not be able to work to our full potential. However, if we START with a fly, the pectoralis major is worked to its full potential FIRST. Then, when we move to the compound pressing movement, the triceps will have to work to support the pre-exhausted pectoralis major, so when we fail in the exercise, we fail not just because of the triceps, but due to the chest as well.

I am not advocating working to complete failure every single time, as this will have a very large toll on the central nervous system. Remember that if there is enough rest between each working bought, there should always be a constant progression. If our progress stalls, then we have not allowed the body enough time to adapt to the previous workout.

Again, this is a guideline. If certain body parts are lagging behind, they can be added, but this is the major recommendation. A set should last around 30-60+ seconds in order to most effectively build muscle mass. The majority of sets only last around 17 seconds, and are NOT as effective as a slow, controlled, set. The slow, controlled movement will ALWAYS activate far more muscle fibers than a fast set, mainly due to the lack of momentum created! Momentum is NEVER a key to building muscle! It has its place, but not in muscle building.

KEEP A LOG! WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN! THIS IS HOW YOU KNOW YOU ARE PROGRESSING!!

If there are any questions, feel free to ask.

[drwink]

Thank you so much for your replied. I am going to strictly following your instructions and look forward for results in 3 months. May I ask you one more question please? Can you recommend any device for me to indicate my boday fat precentage please?

Thank you

Bodyfat percentage is measured by a few tools. The two most common are calipers, and what is called bioelectrical impedance. If you acquire calipers, it is nearly impossible to get accurate readings yourself without the proper techniques, which I cannot accurately describe in text. Also, you really can't do it to yourself.

My recommendation to you would be to purchase a scale that measures your bodyfat. Calipers and bioelectrical impedance will each have a accuracy of +/-4% Even clinical tests (such as the water displacement test) will have an accuracy of +/-1%.

To keep proper track of your bodyfat, you must be using the SAME variables at each test. Meaning if you are just randomly taking your bodyfat at different points of the day, you will have very different numbers due to water intake and caffeine intake (among other things.) However, to get the MOST accurate measurement, you should wake up, use the bathroom, and THEN take the bodyfat measurement. As long as you are consistent with your variables, you will see the gradual changes you make.

There are plenty of scales available that take your bodyfat. The majority of them will have little metal feet on them.

Anything else, please let me know!

[viper30j]

I always do HIIT in the morning right when I wake up. Keep in mind we always warm-up (or you should be!) before we start high intensity. I jog for ten minutes then do sprints for about 15. So all day long my metabolism is boosted. I can feel it, my body is hotter two hours later than it normally is. I sit in class not moving and sweat a little bit 3 hours later! Studies have shown that this boost lasts for more than the first day, as in over night, or maybe longer.

Personally I think the best bet is a mix. I do HIIT twice a week in the morning and 45 min jog once a week around 7ish.

[drwink]

I always do HIIT in the morning right when I wake up. Keep in mind we always warm-up (or you should be!) before we start high intensity. I jog for ten minutes then do sprints for about 15. So all day long my metabolism is boosted. I can feel it, my body is hotter two hours later than it normally is. I sit in class not moving and sweat a little bit 3 hours later! Studies have shown that this boost lasts for more than the first day, as in over night, or maybe longer.

Personally I think the best bet is a mix. I do HIIT twice a week in the morning and 45 min jog once a week around 7ish.

Well noted. And again, I am not arguing against the effects of HIIT. It has already been proven to use bodyfat as an energy source. My only reasoning for choosing the lower intensity cardio is due to person-specific conditioning! You may be able to easily handle the higher intensity cardio sessions. However, the majority of people looking to lose a significant amount of bodyfat cannot. They will tire of the work the need to put into the cardiovascular routine, and will become completely discouraged, dropping out of fitness rather quickly.

Working in the fitness industry, it is ALL TOO COMMON to see people join the gym, come in one or two times, and then never come back. People don't like to work. I'm trying to keep things as easy and as effective as possible for everyone.

[GuyJin]

Well, there we have it.

A 20-year old giving us Mike Mentzer's version of How To Work Out.

First off, this kind of programme will not work forever; no programme does. While it's not bad, pre-exhaust is not the be-all and end-all.

Shoulder presses. I have yet to read of anyone suffering from shoulder impingement from doing regular presses unless they went too heavy or used poor form.

Speed of movement. While the 2-3 second up/down idea is good for safety reasons, many lifters who use faster speeds have suffered no injuries UNLESS they went too heavy or used poor form.

Variety? No need for it? I wonder...

Why no post-exhaust? Doesn't work as well? Ask Steve Holman who swears by it.

No squats? Why? And what about frequency? How often should we work out?

Arms. I don't know about you, but like many other trainees, if I didn't do some direct arm work, they lost size. Under your protocol, they wouldn't. How do you account for that?

There are so many variables that you have not accounted for that your "licence" should be revoked. My advice: Stay in school, learn a bit more about various training programmes, take two scoops of protein with milk and call us in the morning.

[N@tural1]

I agree with Guyjin, that workout is pretty poor and you've left out a lot of details.

[N@tural1]

The majority of sets only last around 17 seconds, and are NOT as effective as a slow, controlled, set.

Effective for what? Strength? Hypertrophy? Neural strength adaptions?

The slow, controlled movement will ALWAYS activate far more muscle fibers than a fast set

And you're basing this on what?

[carl1174]

Just a question on Cardio - you say that you have to be at cardio for 20 - 30 mins before you start burning fat. What if you do cardio directly after your weights when glycogen stores are low. How long then would you have to do cardio for to see a reduction in bf (I keep my intensity fairly high when doing weightd so my heart beat is elevated anyway)???

[Passion4Pump]

I am delighted to see that you enjoyed my post and continuous information, and I am also very glad to have your input!

I do not disagree that high intensity cardio sessions can be effective. However, my approach is based upon my knowledge of the human body, AND the average trainee.

Let us say for example we have an 18 year old male, who has been active and has been involved in sports throughout his high school career. Can this trainee benefit from highly intense cardio sessions? Of course he can. While the extent bodyfat actually burned is debatable, it does have its place. Mostly though, for the improvement of heart and lung strength.

But now on the opposing end, lets say we have a 43 year old male, who has not set foot in a gym since the age of 20, and is looking to lose 50-70 pounds. This is ALL TOO COMMON. If I, as the personal trainer, were to put this client on a high intensity cardio session, he would last for probably 3-5 minutes if we are lucky, before he needs to stop. His system would just NOT be able to handle such work!

Also, again, the HIIT protocol is recommended because it is supposed to elevate metabolism for the entire day. Let us take into account that the average person works from 8 or 9-5 or 6, and cannot get into the gym until 6:30, 7pm. Well, at this point, part of the benefit of the HIIT system is already negated, because at that point the day is just about over.

HIIT is a system that can be effectively used to burn more bodyfat. HOWEVER, someone who has NOT been participating in activity for a decent amount of time would not benefit as their current conditioning would just NOT be enough to handle such a task.

I agree with you. Good explanation.

[drwink]

Well, there we have it.

A 20-year old giving us Mike Mentzer's version of How To Work Out.

First off, this kind of programme will not work forever; no programme does. While it's not bad, pre-exhaust is not the be-all and end-all.

Shoulder presses. I have yet to read of anyone suffering from shoulder impingement from doing regular presses unless they went too heavy or used poor form.

Speed of movement. While the 2-3 second up/down idea is good for safety reasons, many lifters who use faster speeds have suffered no injuries UNLESS they went too heavy or used poor form.

Variety? No need for it? I wonder...

Why no post-exhaust? Doesn't work as well? Ask Steve Holman who swears by it.

No squats? Why? And what about frequency? How often should we work out?

Arms. I don't know about you, but like many other trainees, if I didn't do some direct arm work, they lost size. Under your protocol, they wouldn't. How do you account for that?

There are so many variables that you have not accounted for that your "licence" should be revoked. My advice: Stay in school, learn a bit more about various training programmes, take two scoops of protein with milk and call us in the morning.

I apologize if this is how you feel, but I can explain on every point you made.

#1: This is not strictly a Mike Mentzer how-to. I had directly stated before the program listing that the program itself was based off of principles from HIT, as well as HST and DC. All of these programs follow the proven principle of gradually increasing weight in every workout in order to achieve significant gains. Muscle is obviously not a short-term goal. It takes years to put on the amount of muscle mass most people are looking for.

#2. I am not saying that pre-exhaust is the number one way to go. The pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi are, in my opinion, two of the hardest areas to actually "get the pump" during your workout. The pre-exhaust technique is one that helps these muscles directly, but are not always needed.

#3. The main reason I stated that the shoulder presses are not always the #1 choice of exercise is because of how the body is set up. The supraspinatus runs between the head of the humerus and the glenoid fossa. When the arm is raised above the head, the space for the supraspinatus gets smaller and smaller, and is eventually pinched between. High repetition of this can cause damage to the supraspinatus muscle. I am not advocating that the exercise NEVER be done, but I am warning of the possibility of injury.

#4. Control and consistent speed is not entirely meant for prevention of injury, but also for the consistent variable. If you go to the gym one day, and lift with slow controlled speed, but then the next time you try a new weight and you go faster so you can get more reps, is that muscular adaption? No. Instead the assistance of momentum gave you those extra few reps, and then you are going to struggle with proper adaption later on, due to the fact that you will think you can handle more weight than you actually can.

#5. Where did I state there was no need for variety? I did in fact state that "THIS IS THE CORE of the exercises. Other exercises can be added later or interchanged." So, obviously I am encouraging the user of this program to feel things out for themselves. There is no one specific program that will work for everyone, and I already know this. However, magazines and articles all over will make statements like "THIS IS THE ONLY PROGRAM FOR MUSCLE MASS." I am not trying to make any unfounded claims like that. I am simply encouraging certain training techniques that I feel will lead to faster progress due to application on myself, as well as many of my clients. Also, the normal recommendation is 6-8 weeks of training before a workout should be or needs to be changed. So there is plenty of room for growth.

#6. Post-exhaust is another training protocol. If you have experimented with it and you like it, feel free to use it! I am not discouraging people from OTHER protocols. Again, I am just trying to keep things as simple as possible, while still being extremely effective. Again, I encourage the user to LEARN HIS/HER OWN BODY! I cannot stress that enough! The fact that someone swears by a certain training method is always going to occur. HST swears by HST, HIT swears by HIT, DC swears by DC, and I will swear by my principles. All programs are anecdotal, and mostly STAY anecdotal, unless studies are done by credible sources, correct? I'm sure we can both agree on that point.

#7. The main reason I do not advocate squats is because I see how the average trainee performs them. Most do not have good form. Most can suffer serious injuries due to them! Again, this is a training protocol that calls for continuous progression. I see far to often (in any exercise really) that as soon as someone increases the weight too soon, they lose their full range of motion. Also, again, I am trying to KEEP THINGS SIMPLE! Heavy squats are an exercise that requires a spotter. Most people that are looking for help with training are not going to have a consistent spotter, so leg presses are the safer way to go. If you like squats and want to use them, GREAT, use them.

#8. Frequency is one of those MAJOR variables that NO PERSON can accurately tell you. You can say "oh go 3 times a week and you will be fine" but that is not a certainty. I stated in my very first post of this thread "Usually people only take 1 day of rest between training bouts. I suggest two or 3, and as your weights increase you MAY need more rest time." I also stated that every time you enter the gym, you should be able to beat your previous workout somehow, either by adding another repetition (in the given range of 8-12) or increasing the weight (once 12 is hit). If this DOES NOT HAPPEN, then more rest time is needed between the training bouts. Some people are far more genetically gifted than others, and will not need as much rest time. This may be you, and if it is, congratulations. Learning your own body, and how it works, is the key to success in ANY program.

#9. Arms/size. Okay, now here again, listen to your body. If you are keeping your measurements, and by the numbers your arms legitimately lose size DUE TO MUSCLE LOSS, then yes, something must be done of course. That is the process of learning one's body. Why do I not call for any more direct work in my protocol? The biceps have two main functions, one is elbow flexion (which everyone knows as the bicep curl movement) and the other is bringing the hand from a pronated position (palm down) to supinated (palm up). When the palms are facing down, or away from you, then the biceps will not do too much work in the back exercise. However, if they are facing up, or toward you, then they will pick up more work. So, the initial parts of this program call for the straight arm pushdown movement, where the palms are facing down, and ONLY the latissiums dorsi is hit. Then the palms UP rowing movement, where the biceps do more work, and failure will be caused by the combination of bicep failure and pre-exhaustion on the back.

As far as your advice for "learning a bit more," I more than agree. In the world of exercise science, there is always more to learn, as it is an ever-expanding field! Only recently have there been major breakthroughs in discovering the human body, so we are in the midst of it all. I will be completely honest with you as far as my education; I hold an Associates degree in Exercise Science, as well as certifications from World Instructor Training Schools, and Premier Training (based in the UK.) I'm not the top mind in the field, nor will I ever claim to be. However, I see the many common mistakes people make throughout their training careers, and the lack of progress people make, and I only wish to help simplify things.

Any other responses you have are more than welcome, and I thank you for your input on training!

[SuicideGripMe]

Maybe Im just too old school, I go by the eat more, lift heavier to pack on strength and mass, and to cut weight, cleaner diet and more cardio. What happened to the glory days?

I think most professional bodybuilders, amateur bodybuilders, average lifters, powerlifters, strong man would look at that routine and weep. Too low volume? Terrible excercise choice? Reminds me of the days of Kingfish and the HIT trolls...

No offense, but Youre using a lot of scientific jargon. If these training guidelines were so amazing, how come Starting Strength, Bill Starrs 5x5, and body part splits have given plenty of people on this site the results they desire?

Also, write down progression? If I did that routine, I couldnt wait to head to the squat rack and tell everyone how much I was doing on my chest flies and leg extensions!

[drwink]

Just a question on Cardio - you say that you have to be at cardio for 20 - 30 mins before you start burning fat. What if you do cardio directly after your weights when glycogen stores are low. How long then would you have to do cardio for to see a reduction in bf (I keep my intensity fairly high when doing weightd so my heart beat is elevated anyway)???

Yes, you will not need to do cardio as long as if you started fresh. The body will start using bodyfat stores faster due to the lower glycogen stores, again, as long as the proper intensity level is met. I cannot give you an exact number as far as how long you would need to do the cardio, but I still recommend 30-45 minutes, just to hit a good amount of bodyfat.

Keep in mind though, that if you are hungry after you are done your weight training routine, you should NOT be doing cardio. You will be putting your body into a catabolic state. Whenever the body is hungry it will automatically think that it is starving. When this happens the body will say "okay, shut down all normal process" which means "don't use carbs" and "dont' use bodyfat." Instead, the body will turn to the next readily available source of energy, which is muscle mass. The reason? Well, more muscle means you need more calories. If the body thinks it is dying, it will get rid of what it doesn't need. The less muscle it has after that point, the easier it is for the body to survive because you don't need as many calories!

Hope this clears things up!

[drwink]

Maybe Im just too old school, I go by the eat more, lift heavier to pack on strength and mass, and to cut weight, cleaner diet and more cardio. What happened to the glory days?

I think most professional bodybuilders, amateur bodybuilders, average lifters, powerlifters, strong man would look at that routine and weep. Too low volume? Terrible excercise choice? Reminds me of the days of Kingfish and the HIT trolls...

No offense, but Youre using a lot of scientific jargon. If these training guidelines were so amazing, how come Starting Strength, Bill Starrs 5x5, and body part splits have given plenty of people on this site the results they desire?

Also, write down progression? If I did that routine, I couldnt wait to head to the squat rack and tell everyone how much I was doing on my chest flies and leg extensions!

If ANY training program was so amazing, why are there ANY OTHERS? Well, obviously everyone can progress in different ways. Also, any program can give tremendous results if it is the first program you are doing, simply because of the massive increase in intensity. I am not saying other programs are bad. Feel free to experiment and learn your body! Again, I am only trying to make things as simple as possible while still being extremely effective!

Also, I'm sure everyone here will agree with me, that when training turns into an egotistical battle to see who can lift the most weight, progress normally stalls. Mainly because you aren't doing the PROPER progressions for your body in the long run. And in either case, what is so bad about a chest fly and leg extensions? Can you ONLY measure strength with the squat or deadlift?

[SuicideGripMe]

From a strength aspect, a chest fly is pretty pointless. An isolation excercise that involves no heavy pushing or pulling. You cant guage a max rep on it. As with leg extensions. Squats, deadlifts, military presses, chin ups, etc are great measures of strength and endurance. Im not saying squats and deads are the only lifts, but I think its damn near stupid to say a chest fly or leg extension could be compared to the strength and coordination needed for heavy deads and squats. Id say chest flyes are accessory lifts and not much else from a STRENGTH outlook.

I dont mean to pry, but what our your credentials and where are you getting this information? What are your lifts and progression over the years?

[daniboy33]

I lift 5 days a week. I am trying to gain muscle mass. How many days do you think I should be doing cardio a week?

[GuyJin]

[QUOTE=drwink;232057721]I apologize if this is how you feel, but I can explain on every point you made.-----First off, don't apologize. You are entitled to your views as am I, and I have taken no offense to what you've written. I hope you haven't taken offense to what I've written, either. I simply questioned why you went about explaining as you did. Below, I'll try my best to respond to your latest input.

1. Yes, it takes many years to put on the mass--naturally--that we all strive for, as much as our individual genetics allow for. Your original post stated that a trainee might start with three or four sets of each exercise. From which programme, might I ask? Neural adaptions are better served with fairly low-rep sets and somewhat heavier weight, relatively speaking, if you're talking about strength, that is. For hypertrophy, of course, higher reps are the way to go, but a beginner is best served using fairly low reps until the neural pathways have been firmly established. As for the programmes you mentioned, I am familiar with all of them and have done all of them--and more--in my twenty-plus years of training. As you stated, progression is the key, but some programmes are better suited for progression than others.

#2. I am not saying that pre-exhaust is the number one way to go. The pectoralis major and the latissimus dorsi are, in my opinion, two of the hardest areas to actually "get the pump" during your workout. The pre-exhaust technique is one that helps these muscles directly, but are not always needed.-----(Me). Agreed. However, pre-and post-exhaust are only tools to be used when needed. Most trainees suffer from lack of reps in one exercise or another when doing pre-exhaust, which MAY mitigate against further gains.

#3. Shoulder presses. Shoulder presses have a proven track record of adding mass to the front and side delts, and if done correctly, can even hit the rear delts somewhat, although rear delt raises get at them directly. Which exercise will put more size on: Laterals or shoulder presses? The answer should be simple enough. As for injuries, the only ones I've ever heard of came through either overuse or poor technique. I will agree that high reps and high sets have a potential for injury, but most trainees do neither. Olympic lifters have to do them, of course, but I've heard of few injuries there, either. Not saying it isn't possible, but if done correctly and cycled properly with rotator cuff work, there is little risk.

#4. Speed of movement. Keeping the same speed pattern is fine for testing, but since the body can adapt to just about anything within reason, it makes little sense to keep the same speed unless you're consistently gaining. If so, don't change it. As for the momentum argument, there is little chance of that, unless you are using a light weight which allows swinging. I would not advocate that for anyone. Safety? Moving some exercises somewhat faster have little to no potential for injury unless poor form takes over. Powerlifters and O lifters do not use 2/4 speed or 3/3 speed; they ACCELERATE it under control. That fits in with their kind of training.

#5. Variety. Here, I will agree with you, except that I consider leg extensions a poor mass builder. same for flyes. Doing pre-exhaust is fine and dandy, but that, too, has it's limitations, as mentioned previously. Call me old-fashioned,but from experience, I've found that leg extensions are poor all over, unless you're a competitive bodybuilder, and even then, I'm not really in favour of them. (Call that a personal bias if you will). As for the 6-8 week training period, I must assume that you're following a deloading phase, or am I in error?

#6. Post-exhaust is another training protocol. If you have experimented with it and you like it, feel free to use it! I am not discouraging people from OTHER protocols. Again, I am just trying to keep things as simple as possible, while still being extremely effective. Again, I encourage the user to LEARN HIS/HER OWN BODY! I cannot stress that enough! The fact that someone swears by a certain training method is always going to occur. HST swears by HST, HIT swears by HIT, DC swears by DC, and I will swear by my principles. All programs are anecdotal, and mostly STAY anecdotal, unless studies are done by credible sources, correct? I'm sure we can both agree on that point.--------(Me). I will agree with you here.

#7. The main reason I do not advocate squats is because I see how the average trainee performs them. Most do not have good form. Most can suffer serious injuries due to them! Again, this is a training protocol that calls for continuous progression. I see far to often (in any exercise really) that as soon as someone increases the weight too soon, they lose their full range of motion. Also, again, I am trying to KEEP THINGS SIMPLE! Heavy squats are an exercise that requires a spotter. Most people that are looking for help with training are not going to have a consistent spotter, so leg presses are the safer way to go. If you like squats and want to use them, GREAT, use them.
-----------------(Me). Again, I will agree. Most squatters are a train wreck waiting to happen, and I also think if you can't squat correctly, don't do it. 'Nuff said.

#8. Frequency is one of those MAJOR variables that NO PERSON can accurately tell you. You can say "oh go 3 times a week and you will be fine" but that is not a certainty. I stated in my very first post of this thread "Usually people only take 1 day of rest between training bouts. I suggest two or 3, and as your weights increase you MAY need more rest time." I also stated that every time you enter the gym, you should be able to beat your previous workout somehow, either by adding another repetition (in the given range of 8-12) or increasing the weight (once 12 is hit). If this DOES NOT HAPPEN, then more rest time is needed between the training bouts. Some people are far more genetically gifted than others, and will not need as much rest time. This may be you, and if it is, congratulations. Learning your own body, and how it works, is the key to success in ANY program.---------(Me). The only issue here is that beginners should train a bit more often than those more advanced, simply because their neural pathways haven't been trained yet. Other than that, I'd say, yes, train as often as you can inasmuch as your recovery abilities allow. And everyone will be different that way, so no need to belabour this point.

#9. Arm size. Here is another individual matter. Doing pre-exhaust for back WILL involve the biceps to a degree, but I've found that JUST doing back work--pre-exhaust or no--simply isn't enough. While I wouldn't go overboard on doing arms, unless you have the genetics for it, I've found for myself and guys I've trained in the past, that doing DIRECT arm work--just a few sets--had little detrimental effect. In fact, none. And while I would agree that evryone must learn his/her own body, I've also observed that many who did not do any supplementary arm work after doing heavy compounds had arms that were undersized. Hence, the need for SOME direct arm work.

As far as your advice for "learning a bit more," I more than agree. In the world of exercise science, there is always more to learn, as it is an ever-expanding field! Only recently have there been major breakthroughs in discovering the human body, so we are in the midst of it all. I will be completely honest with you as far as my education; I hold an Associates degree in Exercise Science, as well as certifications from World Instructor Training Schools, and Premier Training (based in the UK.) I'm not the top mind in the field, nor will I ever claim to be. However, I see the many common mistakes people make throughout their training careers, and the lack of progress people make, and I only wish to help simplify things.

(Me). Congratulations on earning your degrees. It shows that you're serious about training yourself and others and that is commendable. While I'm not naming you in particular, I've met a number of people who hold similar degrees and know absuf-ckinlutely nothing about HOW to train people. Having the knowledge is good; applying it correctly is much beter. I will agree that there is a lot of info out there and simplifying it is best. Moreover, I am not dissing you with my posts; I'm simply trying to find out where you're coming form and what you think about training.

I wish you well in your quest.

[drwink]

[QUOTE=GuyJin;232256051]

I apologize if this is how you feel, but I can explain on every point you made.-----First off, don't apologize. You are entitled to your views as am I, and I have taken no offense to what you've written. I hope you haven't taken offense to what I've written, either. I simply questioned why you went about explaining as you did. Below, I'll try my best to respond to your latest input.

1. Yes, it takes many years to put on the mass--naturally--that we all strive for, as much as our individual genetics allow for. Your original post stated that a trainee might start with three or four sets of each exercise. From which programme, might I ask? Neural adaptions are better served with fairly low-rep sets and somewhat heavier weight, relatively speaking, if you're talking about strength, that is. For hypertrophy, of course, higher reps are the way to go, but a beginner is best served using fairly low reps until the neural pathways have been firmly established....

I wish you well in your quest.

Without quoting the entire post, this was the only part I wanted to add my input. I agree with the rest of your post completely, as there are always variables with all people. There are pros and cons to every type of program, and nothing is completely perfect, as my program is not. The only way to make something completely perfect is to apply it STRICTLY to the trainee.

But I digress. It is my honest opinion that no matter what the trainee's goals, the absolute beginner would gain more benefit with establishing neuromuscular pathways with lower weight, and more reps, or the muscular endurance phase of training. My reasoning for this is #1, if too much weight is used right in the beginning, the form is not going to be 100% perfect, and it is MUCH easier to adjust under a lower weight. Neurological pathways are established from repetition, and if the exercise is repeated improperly, then it will be VERY hard to break that habit later! Higher repetitions with lighter weight make the movement become more natural very quickly.

It is a pleasure discussing training methods with you, as it is with everyone. It's called exercise science, but it is certainly NOT an EXACT science, so everyone has their methods. Any other input or topics of discussion, please feel free as I love learning and sharing knowledge!

[GuyJin]

[QUOTE=drwink;232270121][QUOTE=GuyJin;232256051]

It is my honest opinion that no matter what the trainee's goals, the absolute beginner would gain more benefit with establishing neuromuscular pathways with lower weight, and more reps, or the muscular endurance phase of training. My reasoning for this is #1, if too much weight is used right in the beginning, the form is not going to be 100% perfect, and it is MUCH easier to adjust under a lower weight. Neurological pathways are established from repetition, and if the exercise is repeated improperly, then it will be VERY hard to break that habit later! Higher repetitions with lighter weight make the movement become more natural very quickly.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm wondering, on what you are basing the "higher-reps-for-beginners" scheme? Not that it's bad, but I think that Bill Starr might take issue with that. Starr was speaking from a strength standpoint, but I think his way of thinking is applicable to everyone, no matter what kind of goal they have in lifting. It is true that beginners lack the "neuromuscular pathways" and that repeated effort is needed to "burn them in", so to speak.

However, I would question that doing higher reps is the way. And while I don't know how many sets you'd prescribe for the average newbie, I can honestly tell you that from observing a lot of guys, no matter how athletically inclined they were (or weren't) their form usually started breaking down after the sixth rep or so. That's why, FWIW, I'd go with somewhat higher sets (5-6) and keep the reps relatively low, in the 5-8 range. While the number of sets can be played with to some degree, the reps should stay low to allow the trainee to focus on proper form. When form breaks down, that's when the set should be terminated; it doesn't matter if the trainee is fatigued or not, and fatigue, while important to note, should not be the main factor to be looked at in this instance.

In certain "higher-risk-for-injury" exercises, such as the squat (assuming one can perform it properly) and the deadlift, doing more than 8 for the average new guy will inevitably lead to some kind of form breakdown. That is why the number of sets should remain fairly high while the reps are fairly low; the repeated effort will enhance the neuromuscular adaptions, while proper form is preserved.

I'll grant that there are always exceptions to this rule, but they are relatively few and far between. Personally, I'd rather be conservative, at least in the beginning to low-intermediate stages. And as safety IS and always SHOULD BE the PT's primary concern, I honestly feel that low(er) reps is the way to go, at least in the initial stages. After the break-in period, a good coach will almost always be able to ascertain whether higher reps can and should be used. (This depends on what kind of programme is used, for what kind of training, and also what kind of fibre type the trainee possesses, and that's a whole other ballgame right there).

All the best in your training.