A shoulder routine?

[Inthegrass]

This is the routine I have been doing as of late and I sure wouldn't mind any ideas or critics of it.

Today was shoulder day and these are the sets I did.

1) Sitting Arnold military press, 4 sets of 8 to 12 with 55lbs
super setted with 4 sets of an upright row with a bar 80 and then 90lbs to finish. 8 to 10 reps.

2) Shoulder shrugs with 100lb DB's, 3 sets of 12
super setted with an inclined row with an external rotation. 25lbs x 3 sets of 12

3) Shoulder press machine, 3 sets of 10, 50lbs of plates on each side
setted with 3 sets of 10 of scaptions (I guess you could call them arm raises?) with 25lb DB's, but I do each arm individually and kneeling and balancing on a swiss ball. (Yeah I know!! Shut up!! It's the last part and I throw some core component into it.)

My weakest part of my shoulders is in pressing. Pretty pathetic actually. If anyone has any suggestions to help out?? Be glad to hear them.

[Leaf_Longbottom]

Arnold presses are nice, but for mass its barbell millitaries....low reps, heavy weights, 2-3 minute rests.

dumbbell laterals at the same time minus the swiss ball and another trap exercise and your routine is solid. Granted your abs are better than mine and if its core you want, you'll know better than me...but swiss ball, cmon. Shutting up now.

[rockeo]

Arnold presses are nice, but for mass its barbell millitaries....low reps, heavy weights, 2-3 minute rests.

dumbbell laterals at the same time minus the swiss ball and another trap exercise and your routine is solid. Granted your abs are better than mine and if its core you want, you'll know better than me...but swiss ball, cmon. Shutting up now.

Millie presses are better for mass ??
can u please expound on this ??

[asmolenski]

It depends a bit on what your goal is. For bodybuilding purposes I would add something for rear delts like bent over lateral raises on the cables. I think you are doing too many supersets - that is an advanced technique and if you want to do them once in a while I would add a single superset to the last set of an exercise. For strength and core training I would stay away from the machines and stick with barbell military presses. I would also finish off the shoulders with DB lateral raises using a lighter weight and focusing on technique - keep elbows up and palms down and resist swinging the arms out - rather use a nice smooth lateral raise and slowly lower it and repeat with no resting between reps - this will burn your laterals like crazy. I dont do shrugs b/c I dont want big blocky looking traps and they get worked with deadlifts and back - if you insist on training traps try adding them onto your back day... My 2 cents...

[ntrllftr]

Millie presses are better for mass ??
can u please expound on this ??

I am certain that you are trying to sucker someone in here.
Upright row is what your looking for isn't it?

The only problem with that is the amount of weight that can effectively be used with this movement.

Side, front and rear raises pretty much isolate a certain range of the muscle.
So raises are out of the equation for "mass" as specific exercises.
BUT yes BUT if you hit each isolated muscle heavy enough and effectively enough put them together then yes they are the ultimate mass builder. IMO of course.

I personally believe that the ultimate mass builder is the press.
no?

.

[rockeo]

I am certain that you are trying to sucker someone in here.
Upright row is what your looking for isn't it?

The only problem with that is the amount of weight that can effectively be used with this movement.

Side, front and rear raises pretty much isolate a certain range of the muscle.
So raises are out of the equation for "mass" as specific exercises.
BUT yes BUT if you hit each isolated muscle heavy enough and effectively enough put them together then yes they are the ultimate mass builder. IMO of course.

I personally believe that the ultimate mass builder is the press.
no?

.

LOL !!! no i was not trying to sucker anyone. i just wanted to know y someone stated that the big mass shoulder exercise is millie presses. dont get me wrong they are one of the best, but IMO the Arnie Press is more effective personnely. there is more of a movement and works a nice angle as well. so anywho to each his own, afterall no two bodies are created equal.

[ntrllftr]

LOL !!! no i was not trying to sucker anyone. i just wanted to know y someone stated that the big mass shoulder exercise is millie presses. dont get me wrong they are one of the best, but IMO the Arnie Press is more effective personnely. there is more of a movement and works a nice angle as well. so anywho to each his own, afterall no two bodies are created equal.

I just had this discussion about dumbells and barbells with shoulders.
Unless you have a w/o partner or power hooks all barbell work
is much more effective. I say this because of the effort getting the weight to the starting position. Getting those 65 pounders from the floor up is wasted energy that could be used for a rep, if you ask me.
Don't get me wrong. I totally believe that the dumbell press is superior to the berbell because of where the movement occurs though.

.

[gbg]

I haven't pressed with a BB in years! it's Arnold presses and reg Db presses for me.
When doing the Arnold press be sure to go slow on the negative it's a very important component of the Arnold that people forget.

[Inthegrass]

I haven't pressed with a BB in years! it's Arnold presses and reg Db presses for me.
When doing the Arnold press be sure to go slow on the negative it's a very important component of the Arnold that people forget.

I always go really slow on all the negatives. It's just something that I do.

Talking about the military press and the Arnold press, are these two items that can be done in the same workout or would doing that sacrifice one over the other?

By the way, thanks everyone for all the responses!

[gbg]

I always go really slow on all the negatives. It's just something that I do.

Talking about the military press and the Arnold press, are these two items that can be done in the same workout or would doing that sacrifice one over the other?

By the way, thanks everyone for all the responses!

You can do them in the same routine

[Inthegrass]

You can do them in the same routine

What's the difference between a standing press and a sitting press, other than of course , one you are standing and one you are sitting? I've done both and I don't really see any difference in the way they feel or in their difficulty levels.

[Mark1T]

Most of the exercises mentioned are good for Shoulders, but to get stronger and to get size, you have to progress - either with more weight or reps, each week. Preferrably more weight, such as 5lbs. Start with your favorite exercises for Shoulders, and when you cannot progress any further with weight on any particular exercise, switch to another similar movement.

So, for example the Military movement can be done with several exercises: BB, DBs, Smith Machine, Hammer Strength, Precor. Those exercises for Military movement could be good for over a year, since you would spend from 2 to 3 months progressing on just one.

To prefer only one exercise or movement, means you are limiting yourself to progression in strength and size.

[gbg]

What's the difference between a standing press and a sitting press, other than of course , one you are standing and one you are sitting? I've done both and I don't really see any difference in the way they feel or in their difficulty levels.

standing DB press? I don't do them but I would think your incorporating more muscles to help the lift, more core work and it's also more of a compound exercise sitting isolates the shoulder more.

[rockeo]

Most of the exercises mentioned are good for Shoulders, but to get stronger and to get size, you have to progress - either with more weight or reps, each week. Preferrably more weight, such as 5lbs. Start with your favorite exercises for Shoulders, and when you cannot progress any further with weight on any particular exercise, switch to another similar movement.

So, for example the Military movement can be done with several exercises: BB, DBs, Smith Machine, Hammer Strength, Precor. Those exercises for Military movement could be good for over a year, since you would spend from 2 to 3 months progressing on just one.

To prefer only one exercise or movement, means you are limiting yourself to progression in strength and size.

ahhh thank you !!!!!

[rockeo]

I haven't pressed with a BB in years! it's Arnold presses and reg Db presses for me.
When doing the Arnold press be sure to go slow on the negative it's a very important component of the Arnold that people forget.

spoken like a true Champion - x2 gbg !!!

[sdnatural]

How come there are no laterals (side, front, or seated rear) in your routine? I throw these in between each pressing exercise. IMHO, it helps to add shape to the shoulders plus it gives my rotators a break from the stress of performing constant presses.

[ExCompetitor]

LATERALS,LATERALS and more LATERALS...then do your pressing movements.

[rockeo]

How come there are no laterals (side, front, or seated rear) in your routine? I throw these in between each pressing exercise. IMHO, it helps to add shape to the shoulders plus it gives my rotators a break from the stress of performing constant presses.

we did not get that far yet !!!
but u beat us to the punch, so to speak !!!

[ironwill2008]

You need to get an exercise in there for your rear delts, as Dr Smo already pointed out. If you don't, you'll have a muscle imbalance that will cause shoulder problems down the road.

[Leaf_Longbottom]

You need to get an exercise in there for your rear delts, as Dr Smo already pointed out. If you don't, you'll have a muscle imbalance that will cause shoulder problems down the road.

Agreed, but I do all my heavy rear delt work on back days, and something like bent over laterals on shoulder days. Also I rarely do front laterals as I feel they get worked extra hard on chest days from presses.

[Hound53]

My delts have been responding great lately by doing heavy standing military press, 8 sets of two to three reps per set, then I do 4 sets of 15 - 20 reps of front lat lifts, candlestick style adding a twist of the wrist at the top for the forearms and 4 sets of 15 to 20 reps on regular lat lifts with my hands pronated. On back day I add in 4 sets of 15 - 20 reps of high cable crossovers.

I got the cable crossovers and the non standard lat lifts from the Charles Glass videos on this site. I added in the wrist twist on the candlesticks and I personally prefer standing presses over the seated ones.

I prefer the heavy weight and low reps over high reps on the presses but that is just me. I add 5 lbs every 4 weeks to my press routine by starting the first week with 2 sets of three wand six sets of two reps. next week I do 4 sets of three and 4 sets of two, third week I do 6 sets of three and two sets of two, last week I do 8 sets of three and the following week I add 5 lbs and start all over.

Anyway this routine is getting me some great results and with no shoulder pains at all. I will be posting yearly progress pics in November.

[Marius_Ursus]

Partial cheats.

When I went up from the 24kg kettlebell to the 32kg version, I had a devil of a time getting the weight up. I could rack it from the clean with no problem, but getting it off my shoulder was killing me. I started using my off-hand to push it off my shoulder, then used the full-body tension technique to squeeze a single rep out.

There's also the use of dipping the knees to launch the weight off as you're learning to manipulate heavier weight.

There's also the technique of cleaning a weight you know you can't press and pushing and pushing. Then putting it back down and grabbing the next smaller dumbbell, kettlebell, or whateverthebell and repeating this until you hit a size you can do for reps. This will build a lot of strength in a short amount of time until you're body catches on and stops you from tricking it. (Damned central nervous system.)

Then there's the technique of performing singles throughout the day. You use the highest 1RM you can manage with clean form and do one rep every three or four hours...or every two hours if you're up to it and able.

Good luck!

(By the way, barbell military presses can cause injuries in the rotator cuffs because of forcing the shoulders to maintain a single plain of motion. I still do barbell clean and presses myself, but it's never more than five reps in a set.)

[Marius_Ursus]

standing DB press? I don't do them but I would think your incorporating more muscles to help the lift, more core work and it's also more of a compound exercise sitting isolates the shoulder more.

Yeah, there's potential 100% CNS recruitment when performing exercises from the standing position. If you learn tension techniques, you can get that recruitment pretty near 100%.

[ironwill2008]

Also I rarely do front laterals as I feel they get worked extra hard on chest days from presses.

Same here; I don't feel front raises are needed, since the anterior delts are worked with so many other lifts.

[ectoBgone]

I recently added the Clean and Press to the beginning of my shoulder day split. It's a great compound exercise that also gets you breathing heavy. I equate it to the squat/deadlift/bench staple for my shoulders now. That, with additional side and rear delt work should cover things pretty well, but I throw in one additional overhead isolation routine just for fun.

[dustyrustee]

Ok, you asked about building shoulders...

here is a pic of me waaaaaaay back in 1980 (yeah, I'm old now)....but I was young then and REALLY wanted decent wide shoulders/delts.

the pic is w/out pump and I was 5'8 and 180 lbs then.

what worked for me was:

1: seated barbell press behind neck; 12, 10, 2 x 8

2) standing upright rows w/barbell; 10. 8, 6, 5

3) standing side dumbell lateral raises w/a bit of 'cheat'; 12, 10, 4 x 8

4) bent over lateral raises; 4 x 8

front raises didn't do cause bench press and dips pretty much covered them.

the side lateral raises really worked to bring out the mass the very best...AND standing in front of mirror , placing hands on my lower back and flexing out delts really helped.

when I started lifting I had no delts at all....but once I started doing heavy cheating lateral raises and really flexing my delts out in mirror after they came in real quick....lat raises are the secret....and the upright rows w/cheat to really get heavy weight moving up high.

good luck....

[Mark1T]

Second to Legs, my Shoulder workout is the toughest. Besides a Military movement/exercise, I like to train all three heads separately. If you do it right, you can isolate each.

I know a lot of guys don't do front Laterals, but I do, because every time I stop doing them, something in my training suffers. I use a Hammer grip, instead of the DB parallel to the floor. It isolates the front Delts more efficiently.

When done with Shoulders, I am smoked.

[BuckSpin]

Still new to all of this, but my 2 cents:

I made the classic "noob" mistake and seriously overtrained. To that end I have completely rethought a number of lifts to address what had become some seriously sore/painful shoulder joints:

- Went to a 1/4 turn on the standing DB Arnold Press. In other words I don't rotate the grip 180 degrees but rather 90. The press starts & ends in a hammer grip position. MUCH less strain on the shoulder & elbow.
- Agree with a few previous posters that the anterior delts get plenty of work on the various incline chest lifts I do on that day, so I do not do any frontal raises. FWIW going to a hammer grip on those REALLY blasts the ADs in incline. I've noticed immediate gains.
- I have added Incline DB Flies for rear delt work. Came up with a novel way to do incline w/o an incline bench. Took my boy's 18" plastic kick ball (like you see in those racks at Wal-Mart), sit on the edge of a chair, place the ball tight in my lap & lean forward. Voila...instant incline that supports the lower back but also requires the core/support muscles to activate as well. Works GREAT, plus by simply moving the ball I can control the degree of incline very well. I also do DB Incline Shrugs this way on Back Day...*ouch*.
- Replaced Power DB Cleans with Static DB Overhead ATG Squats. OMG....talk about burn! 100% static in the shoulder but as soon as you start the squat you FEEL those shoulders work. The fire is insane. It does not take very much weight at all. This is a killer.
- For more rear delt work you could do Standing Cable/Band Delt Rows. They will target the rear delts nicely. Make sure to keep the angle/incline up & on the same plane.
- DB Shrugs with heavy DBs are still awesome. Highly recommended. Its one of the very few lifts I strap in to go past where my grip would give out.
- Nothing will put meat on your traps like Deadlifts.
- Finally, to finish the session I do Jackknife/Pike Pushups. Use a wider grip than normal pushups & kiss the floor. These will really test your shoulder strength, work the core & IMHO they are just fun to do!

[Inthegrass]

Thanks for all the advice everyone!!

[skos]

How about some rotator cuffs exercise? I know most of us don't do them or forget.

I had shoulder surgery a couple of years ago to take out a bone spur that caused a tear in my rotator cuff. The rehab had a bunch of rotator cuffs exercises and now my bad shoulder is stronger then my good shoulder.