Shrugs vs Upright rows

[JonnyStead]

Hi All

I'm a pretty experienced lifter and also well co-ordinated (I play 5 musical instruments, so co-ordination aint a problem!) but I do struggle with maintaining form during shrugs.

So I was wondering how many of you guys do them and whether as long as I am including such exercises as upright row, and incline press etc I actually need to have shrugs in my routine?

your views would be appreciated! thanks.

[phikappa]

Do you do squats and deads?

[Bronzebird]

I see form sacraficed for heavy lifts. I think full ROM has merrit and also just picking up 300 pounds and try to raise the shoulders to your ears.
So do them both.
Up right rows is that full range of motion and hit the void between neck and delts. It's all good for a change up in the routine.
As a side note I prefer db's on rows and shrugs.

[JonnyStead]

Do you do squats and deads?

Oh yes - I couldnt lift without them - they are central to my routine!

[phikappa]

Oh yes - I couldnt lift without them - they are central to my routine!

Then shrugs aren't as important (IMHO).

Back when I was ~20, a couple of friends asked me what I did for traps (they asked because I had decent traps). I told them I didn't do anything for traps. Just squats and deads. They were disappointed in my response.

[Karl_Hungus]

Personally, I'd avoid upright rows if I were you. They are rough on the shoulders:

See shoulder saver # 16:

http://I dont believe in contraindic...ed individuals

A quote: "Shoulder Saver #16: Ditching the Barbell Upright Rows

I've often said that I don't believe in contraindicated exercises ? only contraindicated individuals. I still stand firm with that statement, but if there is one exercise that will ever push me over the line, it's going to be the upright row. This is as internally rotated as the humerus will get, and you're elevating the humerus right into the impingement zone on every rep.

For that reason, I'll never write this into a program for a client or athlete. The dumbbell version is a slightly safer alternative, although I feel that there are still much safer ways to challenge the upper traps and deltoids. To summarize, if you've ever had a shoulder problem, suspect that you might have one now, or have other predisposing characteristics (i.e. poor posture, lots of overhead work in your daily life) that might increase your risk of impingement, you'd be wise to omit upright rows altogether."

Another link: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betteru26.htm

[JonnyStead]

Personally, I'd avoid upright rows if I were you. They are rough on the shoulders:

See shoulder saver # 16:

http://I dont believe in contraindic...ed individuals

A quote: "Shoulder Saver #16: Ditching the Barbell Upright Rows

I've often said that I don't believe in contraindicated exercises ? only contraindicated individuals. I still stand firm with that statement, but if there is one exercise that will ever push me over the line, it's going to be the upright row. This is as internally rotated as the humerus will get, and you're elevating the humerus right into the impingement zone on every rep.

For that reason, I'll never write this into a program for a client or athlete. The dumbbell version is a slightly safer alternative, although I feel that there are still much safer ways to challenge the upper traps and deltoids. To summarize, if you've ever had a shoulder problem, suspect that you might have one now, or have other predisposing characteristics (i.e. poor posture, lots of overhead work in your daily life) that might increase your risk of impingement, you'd be wise to omit upright rows altogether."

Another link: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betteru26.htm

thanks thats really interesting - I shall look into that further!

Then shrugs aren't as important (IMHO).

Back when I was ~20, a couple of friends asked me what I did for traps (they asked because I had decent traps). I told them I didn't do anything for traps. Just squats and deads. They were disappointed in my response.

Its a good point - in my experience, good solid compound movements should be all someone like me needs - any other thoughts chaps?

[ntrllftr]

If you are having problems with form on the shrug, then you are going too heavy. You should be able to hold the weight at the top. Stretch at the bottom.

The key to upright rows is to have the weight a few inches from the body.
Hand position is important as well. I feel that the thumbs should be about 2" apart. If they ar too far apart then more stress is put on the rotator as stated by Karl_Hungus.
Look slightly up, lean back slightly and squeeze the traps at the top.

Here is a visual aid of what I do at the end of my main sets.

[Braindrop]

Yeah, my shoulder doesn't like upright rows. I do bent rows with both dumbbells and a barbell, and shrugs with dumbbells.

[gbg]

I do DB shruggs as well as upright rows and of course deads and BB rows.
why would you train the traps any different than any other muscle group,
variety,variety,variety.

[dbx]

Personally, I'd avoid upright rows if I were you. They are rough on the shoulders:

If you are having problems with form on the shrug, then you are going too heavy.

I agree with Karl and Carl

And fwiw, I don't bother working traps directly, and there are many others who don't see the need for it either. And depending on your body shape, bigger traps can make your shoulders look smaller....and/or make your upper body look like the shape of a coat hanger .

[Fifty+]

Personally, I'd avoid upright rows if I were you. They are rough on the shoulders:

See shoulder saver # 16:

http://I dont believe in contraindic...ed individuals

A quote: "Shoulder Saver #16: Ditching the Barbell Upright Rows

I've often said that I don't believe in contraindicated exercises ? only contraindicated individuals. I still stand firm with that statement, but if there is one exercise that will ever push me over the line, it's going to be the upright row. This is as internally rotated as the humerus will get, and you're elevating the humerus right into the impingement zone on every rep.

For that reason, I'll never write this into a program for a client or athlete. The dumbbell version is a slightly safer alternative, although I feel that there are still much safer ways to challenge the upper traps and deltoids. To summarize, if you've ever had a shoulder problem, suspect that you might have one now, or have other predisposing characteristics (i.e. poor posture, lots of overhead work in your daily life) that might increase your risk of impingement, you'd be wise to omit upright rows altogether."

Another link: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betteru26.htm

Geez, I hate news like this. I just started paying attention to my shoulders lately and the Upright row using an EZ curl bar with my arms flared out felt like a good sho exercise......Karl, stop caring so much...

thanx
oldfart

[mikieson]

People will say upright rows are bad and dangerous...BUT...People squat with 800lbs and its ok? I have done upright rows back in the day and they were fine. Never had any problems.

[Spartan1414]

I do upright rows myself. In Arnold's encyclopedia of Modern Body Building he mentions that he never did shrugs except pre competition until then he would just do the upright rows. I also think its person to person dependent maybe you feel your traps are lacking. I always feel having overdeveloped traps makes your shoulders look smaller and choose to focus on the shoulders. The further out your grip on uprights the more the focus on shoulders. The closer the grip more the focus on your traps. Just my 2 cents.

[batteryrequired]

Geez, I hate news like this. I just started paying attention to my shoulders lately and the Upright row using an EZ curl bar with my arms flared out felt like a good sho exercise......Karl, stop caring so much...

thanx
oldfart

I started doing upright rows using an EZ Bar as well. If your having trouble doing them...then your going to heavy. I do these plus DB shrugs and deads. Doing DB shrugs...i try to target a different part of the traps each time i do them. One week its towards the front...next will be the middle, then the following week to the back. I try to hit all angles of the traps this way.

[Spartan1414]

Yeah I've also known some guys who were of course small and insignificant in size who claimed it is downright unhealthy to train with heavy weights. They had some never train with more than body weight formula because more than that is bad for you. Of course they are still wallowing in their puniness. And the too much muscle is bad for you guys too(Always small for some reason). They are entertaining followed closely by some random guy I met at golds who believed in cutting up and buying smaller clothing cuzz this makes you look just as big as Arnold and Jay Cutler. Yeah weight lifting, running, and health foods can all contribute to an early grave according to experts.

[velocityrob]

I feel upright rows give an overall workout to delts and traps, and forearms a little.

But I like deads the most for trap and upper back growth.

Shrugs are usually the last exercise in my trap work.

Sometimes I use them as a mental trick- I'll do a few heavy DB shrugs, then grab lighter DBs for chest presses. The MIND is ready for heavy, so when you drop 15 pounds, if FEELS light.

[Bando]

I do direct trap work - shrugs with a trap bar. There was a poll awhile back that asked "what makes you look like a BB'er?" And overwhelmingly (as I recall) the answer was big traps. Mine are getting there and I like the look, so I agree with the pollsters.

Upright rows hammer my shoulders that have already been hammered all week, so for now they're out. As already posted - the form is important, that low stretch at the bottom I think is crucial, so many guys do shrugs that look like pinching a nerve, 2 inch ROM - you gotta do the full stretch and squeeze at the top.

A couple of posters were saying how squats work their traps, I don't necessarily buy into that. It's like saying your shoulders get worked when you do curls, if thats the case. you've missed the target muscle.

[gbg]

I have been doing UR since I started training and never had a problem with my shoulders and I train shoulder hard one of my favorite BP's to train.
The only thing that bothered me was my wrist I believe they are put in a bad position especially if you have any wrist pathology's.
When doing an UR make sure your scapular is stabilized(shoulder blades pulled gently together) and don't go all the way up to your chin stop just above or at the navel. I do both but stopping lower will hit the delts more and the traps less.

Charles glass training shoulders forgot which episode scroll down.....
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/glasscut.htm

[redweston]

Of course the overlap but I always looked at shrugs for delts, upright row for traps, so mix em up but do both one time or another !

Keeponpumpin! - red

[Most Muscular]

If you're doing heavy deadlifts that will help in developing your traps. If I do shrugs I tend to use dumbbells at my side so I can raise them in a perfect vertical motion. Using a barbell forces the weight to be hanging somewhat out if front of you (especailly if you are as well endowed as I am LOL).

I see more people doing shrugs incorrectly than any other exercise. So many people rotate the shoulders while doing shrugs which is a call for shoulder injury! The traps muscles are made to move in a vertical line of motion, not in a rotating motion. What muscle group are you trying to work here?

Another thing I see is people making shrugs into a calf routine. Getting the weights to move up by jumping off their heels to get the weight to move up. If you have to use that much momentum to get the weight going then it probably is too heavy for you. "the only thing momentum builds bigger is your head".

Use a weight that you can "feel". Flex the trap muscles to move the weight and this will help you isolate the exercise to the trap muscles instead of utilizing other muscles to move the weight. You may not be moving as much weight but the weight you do move will be done by the trap muscles themselves.

nuff said...

[Spartan1414]

yeah I have to focus on not incorporating the calf exercise myself. Though I believe in rowing heavy and only to nipple-throat area.

[kimm4]

DB shrugs and upright cable rows a must in my program. The main cause for most shoulder injuries is years of heavy flat benching and heavy lat pulldowns.

[gbg]

DB shrugs and upright cable rows a must in my program. The main cause for most shoulder injuries is years of heavy flat benching and heavy lat pulldowns.

;;;;;;;;;;;;

[dbx]

DB shrugs and upright cable rows a must in my program. The main cause for most shoulder injuries is years of heavy flat benching and heavy lat pulldowns.

Yes, and if some of us didn't already have shoulder problems caused by various things including BP, we'd have upright rows in our program too .

It kills me the way these threads go sideways (not directed at you Kimm4). Nobody is saying don't do upright rows because they'll ruin your shoulders. Hell, if you can do them without discomfort and want to do them, do them. If not, don't. Very simple concept here .

[BuckSpin]

Question: would a power clean just be an extension of an upright row?

[gbg]

Question: would a power clean just be an extension of an upright row?

No! a power clean is an explosive movement meant to help with overall power as well as strength it's a compound exercise, a pull up is an isolation exercise

[kimm4]

Yes, and if some of us didn't already have shoulder problems caused by various things including BP, we'd have upright rows in our program too .

It kills me the way these threads go sideways (not directed at you Kimm4). Nobody is saying don't do upright rows because they'll ruin your shoulders. Hell, if you can do them without discomfort and want to do them, do them. If not, don't. Very simple concept here .

Sorry DBX I quickly read this thread and got the impression that people felt that upright rows will damage your shoulders...When doesn't a thread go sideways LOL If you've been lifting heavy for years it can take a nasty toll on the body and injuries will happen...no matter how perfect your form is, how careful you are blah, blah, blah...it's the nature of the sport

I have my share of injuries (shoulders included) but choose to keep in direct trap work because my traps are a weak point. So like any other injury I've suffered in the past I work around it best I can.

But I agree if an exercise bothers you don't do it period...there are plenty of other exercises that can make up for it

[BuckSpin]

No! a power clean is an explosive movement meant to help with overall power as well as strength it's a compound exercise, a pull up is an isolation exercise

But if you think of the ROM in both, aren't they very similar?

I LOVE doing these. I do DB Jump Cleans to start every Shoulder/Bis workout, but in hindsite is it just not a "cheating" row once you get the DBs to the hips?

[Spartan1414]

I've had the same thoughts isn't it just a heavy upright row where cheating is the norm?