Sluggeaux - Round 1

[Sluggeaux]

Allright, 1 year and 2 months since I first thought I was ready and realised after only a short time on this board (and a few other sites) that I was sadly mistaken. Now, I'm ready.

Age: 37
Height: 6' even
Current weight 207
Current BF: ~14% by caliper method.

Training history:
Started up in November 2006 with Bill Phillips "body for life" program, made decent gains until around July 2007, then switched to the Max-OT program, continued good gains until Jan 2008 and switched to Starr/madcow 5x5 last month I re-vamped it to a hybrid of Max-OT and 5x5.
Current training routing:
Mondays:
Squats 5x5 increasing weights each set
45 degree leg presses: 2 sets both heavy
SLDL's: 2 sets heavy
Flat benchpress: 5x5 increasing weights
Bentover rows: 5x5 increasing weights
3 sets weighted hypers
3 sets of weighted incline crunches

Tuesdays:
Mil press: 2 warmups 3 sets heavy
Dumbell overhead presses: 2 sets heavy
dumbell side laterals: 2 sets heavy
Barbell shrugs: 3 warmups 2 sets heavy
upright barbell rows: 2 sets heavy

Wednesdays:
Squats: 4x5 increasing weights
Incline Benchpress: 4x5 increasing weights
flat dumbell benchpress: 3x6 heavy
Laying tricep presses: 2x warmup 3x heavy
tricep cable pressdowns: 2x heavy
donkey kickbacks: 2x heavy
Deadlifts: 4x5 increasing weights

Thursdays:
straight bar bicep curls: 2x10 warmup 3x6 heavy
Alternating dumbell curls: 2x6 heavy
Reverse preacher dumbell curls: 2x6 heavy
Wrist curls: 2x6 forward grip 2x6 reverse grip
standing calf raises: 2x12 warmup 2x6 heavy
seated calf raises: 2x6 heavy

Fridays:
Squats: 5x5 increasing 1x8 4th set weight
Bentover BB rows: 5x5 increasing, 1x8 4th set weight
Flat bench BB press: 5x5 increasing, 1x8 4th set weight
Wide grip cable pulldowns: 2x10 warmup 3x6 heavy
Seated cable rows: 2x6 heavy
Bentover BB rows: 5x5 increasing, 1x8 4th set weight

Cardio:
Monday/wednesday/friday 35 min treadmill varying incline/speed
Tuesday/thursday Elliptical 20 min fast


Diet:
Started out on the body for life plan.. it didn't even come close to fueling me the way I needed to be, about the same time I switched over to Max/OT for working out, I switched over to the Ketogenics CKD. My current daily calorie intake is between 3,750 to 4,000 (using Fitday) eating 6 to 8 times a day will get a minimum of 36g of protein/meal.

Current body measurements:
neck: 16.75"
Chest: 43"
Upper Arm: 17"
Forarm: 12.75"
Waist (navel level): 41"
Waist (hip): 34.75"
Thigh: 27.25"
Calf: 15.25"

had bloodwork done for my annual physical last week, the results:
Total Cholesterol: 224 (a bit high)
- LDL 143 (need to clean my diet some)
- HDL 81 (good there)
Baseline test is 447 (the report i got from my Dr. says it's normal, he didn't give me the units though)
Thyroid functions normals (again he didn't give me the numbers just that it's normal)

Gear:
2 full vials of Test-E (I work offshore for 2 weeks at a time so needed 2 of everything)
2 full vials of Deca (Still debating if i want to use Deca my first cycle or not, I got my gear from a buddy free. It was going to be his next cycle, but he has health issues he has to deal with before he does his next one)
3,250 mg of Nolvadex (enough for PCT, and any signs of gyno during cycle)
4,000 mg of Clomid (only need 3,850mg for PCT)
40x 10cc syringes (only need 20)
100x 1" 21gauge drawing pins (only need 20)
100x 1.5" 23gauge pinning pins (only need 20)
2x box of alcohol wipes
2x box of sterile Nitrol gloves
2x BD sharps disposal containers

Planned cycle:
Weeks 1 to 10: 500mg/test/week 250mg Tuesday mornings 7am, 250mg Friday evenings 7pm.
Weeks 11: nothing
Week 12 to 14: 150mg clomid/day and 40mg Nolva/day
Week 15 to 16: 50mg clomid/day and 40mg Nolva/day

First pin is planned for Tuesday morning Sept 2nd. Is there anything anyone can see that I'm missing, or not planning correctly? I'm currently not planning on using the Deca I have for first cycle. I'm wondering if I should, and if so, how should I split my cycle if I do use it?

[Simon85]

Originally Posted by Sluggeaux

Allright, 1 year and 2 months since I first thought I was ready and realised after only a short time on this board (and a few other sites) that I was sadly mistaken. Now, I'm ready.

Age: 37
Height: 6' even
Current weight 207
Current BF: ~14% by caliper method.

Training history:
Started up in November 2006 with Bill Phillips "body for life" program, made decent gains until around July 2007, then switched to the Max-OT program, continued good gains until Jan 2008 and switched to Starr/madcow 5x5 last month I re-vamped it to a hybrid of Max-OT and 5x5.
Current training routing:
Mondays:
Squats 5x5 increasing weights each set
45 degree leg presses: 2 sets both heavy
SLDL's: 2 sets heavy
Flat benchpress: 5x5 increasing weights
Bentover rows: 5x5 increasing weights
3 sets weighted hypers
3 sets of weighted incline crunches

Tuesdays:
Mil press: 2 warmups 3 sets heavy
Dumbell overhead presses: 2 sets heavy
dumbell side laterals: 2 sets heavy
Barbell shrugs: 3 warmups 2 sets heavy
upright barbell rows: 2 sets heavy

Wednesdays:
Squats: 4x5 increasing weights
Incline Benchpress: 4x5 increasing weights
flat dumbell benchpress: 3x6 heavy
Laying tricep presses: 2x warmup 3x heavy
tricep cable pressdowns: 2x heavy
donkey kickbacks: 2x heavy
Deadlifts: 4x5 increasing weights

Thursdays:
straight bar bicep curls: 2x10 warmup 3x6 heavy
Alternating dumbell curls: 2x6 heavy
Reverse preacher dumbell curls: 2x6 heavy
Wrist curls: 2x6 forward grip 2x6 reverse grip
standing calf raises: 2x12 warmup 2x6 heavy
seated calf raises: 2x6 heavy

Fridays:
Squats: 5x5 increasing 1x8 4th set weight
Bentover BB rows: 5x5 increasing, 1x8 4th set weight
Flat bench BB press: 5x5 increasing, 1x8 4th set weight
Wide grip cable pulldowns: 2x10 warmup 3x6 heavy
Seated cable rows: 2x6 heavy
Bentover BB rows: 5x5 increasing, 1x8 4th set weight

Cardio:
Monday/wednesday/friday 35 min treadmill varying incline/speed
Tuesday/thursday Elliptical 20 min fast


Diet:
Started out on the body for life plan.. it didn't even come close to fueling me the way I needed to be, about the same time I switched over to Max/OT for working out, I switched over to the Ketogenics CKD. My current daily calorie intake is between 3,750 to 4,000 (using Fitday) eating 6 to 8 times a day will get a minimum of 36g of protein/meal.

Current body measurements:
neck: 16.75"
Chest: 43"
Upper Arm: 17"
Forarm: 12.75"
Waist (navel level): 41"
Waist (hip): 34.75"
Thigh: 27.25"
Calf: 15.25"

had bloodwork done for my annual physical last week, the results:
Total Cholesterol: 224 (a bit high)
- LDL 143 (need to clean my diet some)
- HDL 81 (good there)
Baseline test is 447 (the report i got from my Dr. says it's normal, he didn't give me the units though)
Thyroid functions normals (again he didn't give me the numbers just that it's normal)

Gear:
2 full vials of Test-E (I work offshore for 2 weeks at a time so needed 2 of everything)
2 full vials of Deca (Still debating if i want to use Deca my first cycle or not, I got my gear from a buddy free. It was going to be his next cycle, but he has health issues he has to deal with before he does his next one)
3,250 mg of Nolvadex (enough for PCT, and any signs of gyno during cycle)
4,000 mg of Clomid (only need 3,850mg for PCT)
40x 10cc syringes (only need 20)
100x 1" 21gauge drawing pins (only need 20)
100x 1.5" 23gauge pinning pins (only need 20)
2x box of alcohol wipes
2x box of sterile Nitrol gloves
2x BD sharps disposal containers

Planned cycle:
Weeks 1 to 10: 500mg/test/week 250mg Tuesday mornings 7am, 250mg Friday evenings 7pm.
Weeks 11: nothing
Week 12 to 14: 150mg clomid/day and 40mg Nolva/day
Week 15 to 16: 50mg clomid/day and 40mg Nolva/day

First pin is planned for Tuesday morning Sept 2nd. Is there anything anyone can see that I'm missing, or not planning correctly? I'm currently not planning on using the Deca I have for first cycle. I'm wondering if I should, and if so, how should I split my cycle if I do use it?

Supp!

Everything look great. The only things I would change are the serms. You need clomid OR nolvadex. Not both. It's just overkill. Clomid owned nolva in term of recovery IMO.

Also week 11 and 12 should be "nothing". It's 2 weeks until the test level goes back to a normal range with a long ester such as test-e. This is when you need to start PCT.


For pct, I would do:
Week 12 to 14: 100mg clomid/day
Week 15 to 16: 50mg clomid/day

150mg is just overkill and you'll have more sides without any benefit.

[Gorilla34]

Good Job!! Looks like you did your research and spent the time and money to do things properly. Some more detail on your diet would be great, as well as your goals. I saw Ketogenic in there somewhere, are you planning to cut?

As for deca, if it has a couple years left before expiration, I say save it. Test only will give you great results and also tell you how you will react from a sides perspective. Deca can shut down the HPTA harshly, not something you probably want to encounter on the first go round.

Also, do you have any other friends with 'health issues' and free gear? lol....

[Sluggeaux]

Originally Posted by Simon85

Supp!

Everything look great. The only things I would change are the serms. You need clomid OR nolvadex. Not both. It's just overkill. Clomid owned nolva in term of recovery IMO.

Also week 11 and 12 should be "nothing". It's 2 weeks until the test level goes back to a normal range with a long ester such as test-e. This is when you need to start PCT.


For pct, I would do:
Week 12 to 14: 100mg clomid/day
Week 15 to 16: 50mg clomid/day

150mg is just overkill and you'll have more sides without any benefit.

Thanks for the feedback!
For PCT there seems to be quite a bit of conflicting information around the board. What makes it more difficult to decide is there is conflicting information between long time vet's with a lot of reputation. Some recommend Nolva, others clomid, and others a combination of the 2. After sifting through a number of PCT searches, I'd decided to stick with the stickied recommendation by ratmonkey in the best of section at:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=664607

I'm a bit confused by your reply though. You are saying that weeks 11 and 12 should be nothing, but then below recommend 12 to 14 as 100mg of clomid?

[Sluggeaux]

Originally Posted by Gorilla34

Good Job!! Looks like you did your research and spent the time and money to do things properly. Some more detail on your diet would be great, as well as your goals. I saw Ketogenic in there somewhere, are you planning to cut?

As for deca, if it has a couple years left before expiration, I say save it. Test only will give you great results and also tell you how you will react from a sides perspective. Deca can shut down the HPTA harshly, not something you probably want to encounter on the first go round.

Also, do you have any other friends with 'health issues' and free gear? lol....

Thanks for the feedback as well!

My goals are mass gaining, preferably mostly, if not all muscle.

I'm not planning on cutting, I'm one of those who believe that cutting is only beneficial AFTER you've put on the muscle mass in the first place. I've found ketogenics, with high calorie count a good way to pack on weight in lean muscle while cutting fat gain. I've been on Keto long enough to find the balances that work well for my body. By keeping my daily calorie count above 3,750 with mostly protein/fat, and keeping my carb intake to around 80g on workout days (yeah, I know that is a LOT of carbs for Keto, but I can still remain in mild ketosis with that much.. what can i say, i've got a good metabolism), and about 40g on non-workout days, i've been able to still pack on mass, without any fat gain, and some fat loss with the weight lifting, and cardio of my workouts.

For example, here was my meal composition for yesterday (which was a workout day):
Breakfast:
3 poached eggs - 18.8g protein, 14.9g fat, 1.2g carbs - 214 cals
1 cup whole cottage cheese - 27.1g protein, 5.3g fat, 5.5g carbs. - 183 cals

Morning preworkout:
1 multivitamin
1 scoop noexplode 0g protein - 0g fat, 6g carbs - 25 cals
1 scoop cellmass creatine - 0g protein, 0g fat, 9.5g carbs - 38 calories

Morning post workout:
1 scoop GNC whey powder w/ whole milk - 20g protein, 4g carbs - 103 cals

Lunch
1 12oz ribeye, charbroiled - 92g protein, 0 carbs, 51g fat - 856 cals

Afternoon snack:
3 tablespoons of natural peanutbutter - 12g protein, 24.2g fat, 9.4g carbs - 282 cals
3 hardboiled eggs - 18.8g protein, 15.9g fat, 1.7g carbs - 232 cals

Evening meal:
16 ounce rack of pork spare ribs, baked - 83g protein, 86.9g fat, 0 carbs - 1,139 cals
1 medium baked sweet potato - 2.3g protein, .2g fat, 23.6g carbs - 103 cals

evening snack:
1 cup cottage cheese - 27.1g protein, 5.3g fat, 5.5g carbs. - 183 cals
3 1" cubes of chedder cheese - 10.8g protein, 14.6g fat, 2.6g carbs - 185 cals

Just before bed-
1 scoop Nitrocore 24, chocholate, cassein - 24g protein, 5g fat, 14g carbs - 200 cals

so, my totals for yesterday was:
3,742 calories
337 grams of protein (38%)
224 grams of fat (53%)
82 grams of carbs (9%)

[Simon85]

Originally Posted by Sluggeaux

I'm a bit confused by your reply though. You are saying that weeks 11 and 12 should be nothing, but then below recommend 12 to 14 as 100mg of clomid?

Holy **** man!

Sorry about that

For pct, I would do:

Week 11 to 12: nothing
Week 13 to 14: 100mg clomid/day
Week 15 to 16: 50mg clomid/day

As for the serms, experiment! You'll see what's works best for you.

Me and most of my buddies prefer clomid. Nolva gave us bad recovery, acne...

[Gorilla34]

Originally Posted by Sluggeaux

Thanks for the feedback as well!

My goals are mass gaining, preferably mostly, if not all muscle.

I'm not planning on cutting, I'm one of those who believe that cutting is only beneficial AFTER you've put on the muscle mass in the first place. I've found ketogenics, with high calorie count a good way to pack on weight in lean muscle while cutting fat gain. I've been on Keto long enough to find the balances that work well for my body. By keeping my daily calorie count above 3,750 with mostly protein/fat, and keeping my carb intake to around 80g on workout days (yeah, I know that is a LOT of carbs for Keto, but I can still remain in mild ketosis with that much.. what can i say, i've got a good metabolism), and about 40g on non-workout days, i've been able to still pack on mass, without any fat gain, and some fat loss with the weight lifting, and cardio of my workouts.

For example, here was my meal composition for yesterday (which was a workout day):
Breakfast:
3 poached eggs - 18.8g protein, 14.9g fat, 1.2g carbs - 214 cals
1 cup whole cottage cheese - 27.1g protein, 5.3g fat, 5.5g carbs. - 183 cals

Morning preworkout:
1 multivitamin
1 scoop noexplode 0g protein - 0g fat, 6g carbs - 25 cals
1 scoop cellmass creatine - 0g protein, 0g fat, 9.5g carbs - 38 calories

Morning post workout:
1 scoop GNC whey powder w/ whole milk - 20g protein, 4g carbs - 103 cals

Lunch
1 12oz ribeye, charbroiled - 92g protein, 0 carbs, 51g fat - 856 cals

Afternoon snack:
3 tablespoons of natural peanutbutter - 12g protein, 24.2g fat, 9.4g carbs - 282 cals
3 hardboiled eggs - 18.8g protein, 15.9g fat, 1.7g carbs - 232 cals

Evening meal:
16 ounce rack of pork spare ribs, baked - 83g protein, 86.9g fat, 0 carbs - 1,139 cals
1 medium baked sweet potato - 2.3g protein, .2g fat, 23.6g carbs - 103 cals

evening snack:
1 cup cottage cheese - 27.1g protein, 5.3g fat, 5.5g carbs. - 183 cals
3 1" cubes of chedder cheese - 10.8g protein, 14.6g fat, 2.6g carbs - 185 cals

Just before bed-
1 scoop Nitrocore 24, chocholate, cassein - 24g protein, 5g fat, 14g carbs - 200 cals

so, my totals for yesterday was:
3,742 calories
337 grams of protein (38%)
224 grams of fat (53%)
82 grams of carbs (9%)

interesting approach, new thought for me. Good thing is you seem to know what works for you! As I'm sure you know keep that water high while on all that protein, whoa! When I'm gaining I eat carbs like there is no tomorrow, and limit the fat (50-80g a day). I stayed a lot leaner this way rather than eating high fat and actually seemed to keep the weight I gain...ha G/L with the cycle

Originally Posted by Simon85

Holy **** man!

Sorry about that

For pct, I would do:

Week 11 to 12: nothing
Week 13 to 14: 100mg clomid/day
Week 15 to 16: 50mg clomid/day

As for the serms, experiment! You'll see what's works best for you.

Me and most of my buddies prefer clomid. Nolva gave us bad recovery, acne...

x2 on the acne with nolva, although mine usually comes about a month AFTER PCT, is this typical to what you see or did you see it while actually on Nolva? I always just thought it was my body finally lining itself out after the SERM.

[ShogunRua]

squats, incline bench, flat bench and deadlifts on the same day! I would be dead.

[Simon85]

Originally Posted by Gorilla34

interesting approach, new thought for me. Good thing is you seem to know what works for you! As I'm sure you know keep that water high while on all that protein, whoa! When I'm gaining I eat carbs like there is no tomorrow, and limit the fat (50-80g a day). I stayed a lot leaner this way rather than eating high fat and actually seemed to keep the weight I gain...ha G/L with the cycle



x2 on the acne with nolva, although mine usually comes about a month AFTER PCT, is this typical to what you see or did you see it while actually on Nolva? I always just thought it was my body finally lining itself out after the SERM.

Usually, acne started to show up after 1 week of nolva. And it's getting worst after pct. Clomid doesn't have this effect on me and my buddies.

[Sluggeaux]

Originally Posted by Simon85

Holy **** man!

Sorry about that

For pct, I would do:

Week 11 to 12: nothing
Week 13 to 14: 100mg clomid/day
Week 15 to 16: 50mg clomid/day

As for the serms, experiment! You'll see what's works best for you.

Me and most of my buddies prefer clomid. Nolva gave us bad recovery, acne...

Okay, got your meaning now. Thanks! Will definitely give that PCT strong consideration, and maybe save the Nolva for any signs of the onset of gyno.

Originally Posted by Gorilla34

interesting approach, new thought for me. Good thing is you seem to know what works for you! As I'm sure you know keep that water high while on all that protein, whoa! When I'm gaining I eat carbs like there is no tomorrow, and limit the fat (50-80g a day). I stayed a lot leaner this way rather than eating high fat and actually seemed to keep the weight I gain...ha G/L with the cycle

Oh I definitely down a lot of water throughout the day. Other than 2 cups of coffee (black) in the morning, and my sup drinks.. water is all i drink. As for my diet, I've a feeling it would be a horrible building diet if i wasn't able to remain in mild ketosis on it. From what i've read, I think i'm kind of unusual that i can have 80g of carbs in a day and still remain in it. When I first started following the diet in the Keto section here on the boards, I didn't expect to hit even mild ketosis until after 4 days on the diet.. I hit the 2nd pink square on the strip after only 2 days, and hit dark purple on the 4th day of my first week on it. Then I started adding carbs at 5g a day until i got into the light pink area again. I'd found that on workout days that I included cardio I could sometimes get as much as 95g of carbs in a day.. but then I found on my non workout days I'd get knocked right out of ketosis fast.. so started downing my carb intake on weekends and found that I could still hit 45 to 50g on weekends and still maintain mild ketosis. Any more than that on non-workout days will still knock me out of it. When i'm on cycle, I may just accept being knocked out of ketosis on weekends in order to keep my calorie count up for building, and clean-carb-up on those days and reduce my fat intake, or add cardio on weekends to keep it up.. not sure which route i want to take yet.

Originally Posted by ShogunRua

squats, incline bench, flat bench and deadlifts on the same day! I would be dead.

Wednesday and friday are the 2 roughest days for my routine. Because my routine is one I created off of a hybrid of Max-OT and Starr/Madcow 5x5 It's probably not as bad as it sounds to you:
The squats on wednesdays are only 4 sets, and follows the 5x5 spreadsheet. If you've seen it, it's a fairly light day for squats compared to mondays and fridays workouts. The incline bench is also off of the 5x5 spreadsheet, and again those 4 sets is not as heavy as the chest work on wednesdays as it is mondays and fridays. The dumbell presses are from Max-OT that day and are heavy, but it's only 3 sets of 6 reps. The deadlifts that I finish up that workout with are from 5x5 and just like the rest of the 5x5 program for the wedensday workout are not on the heavy side like they are on mondays and fridays.

[fitnessman]

I say skip the clomid all together and go with Nolva. only. I also see zero point with twice a week injects at that dose, no need!

[fitnessman]

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.





Clomid and Nolvadex


I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). lh - leutenizing hormone - output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.


Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH


But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more lh - leutenizing hormone - will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more lh - leutenizing hormone - was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and lh - leutenizing hormone - levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.



The Estrogen Clomid


The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [sex hormone binding globulin ] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," ?a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of lh - leutenizing hormone - from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on lh - leutenizing hormone - response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.



Conclusion


To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - , and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of lh - leutenizing hormone - stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in sex hormone binding globulin levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gynecomastia and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.


References:

1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45

[Sluggeaux]

Thanks for all of the information Fitty! Think I may very well give that suggestion a go. It's definitely not part of the main stream thought on PCT from what I've read, but your advice has always been rock solid.