What is the minimum FAT intake to stay in ketosis?

[IwantSmallAss]

What is the minimum daily FAT intake to stay in ketosis or to efficiently cut on this diet ?
is 115g/day critical low?

[Stray800]

What is the minimum daily FAT intake to stay in ketosis or to efficiently cut on this diet ?
is 115g/day critical low?

It depends more on your percentages than an actual exact figure.

As long as your taking in more fat than protein you'll be ace.

[IwantSmallAss]

It depends more on your percentages than an actual exact figure.

As long as your taking in more fat than protein you'll be ace.

I am not taking.. thats why I ask, I take 160g protein and 115g fat to cut the calories as low as possible.

[Skunk]

You should be fine as long as you meet your required protein intake and calorie intake. If you've accomplished your target protein value, then you should be taking away or adding fat to meet your calorie intake. What's your stats?

[evrim]

Correct me if I am wrong, but ketosis occur because of the lack of carbs not the presence of extra fat. Fat provides energy

[Vanusk]

I am not taking.. thats why I ask, I take 160g protein and 115g fat to cut the calories as low as possible.

If your not getting enough fat in your body you will start to burn protein for energy, the worst possible energy source of the three.

[Stray800]

Correct me if I am wrong, but ketosis occur because of the lack of carbs not the presence of extra fat. Fat provides energy

You want your fat macros to exceed your protein - or else there's no reason why your body would use fat instead of breaking the protein down instead.

[SHIFT_Pump]

You want your fat macros to exceed your protein - or else there's no reason why your body would use fat instead of breaking the protein down instead.

I call BS. Where are you getting your information from?

This is straight from the book on the Keto Diet by Lyle McDonald.

Fat is in essence a caloric ballast, a nutrient which
has a relatively neutral effect on insulin levels or ketosis, and which is used to adjust calories.

All of this data suggests that dietary fat is not a necessary part of a ketogenic diet from a metabolic or adaptational standpoint as ketosis will readily develop without the consumption of
dietary fat (assuming protein and carbohydrate intake are not too high). From a strictly metabolic standpoint, there appears to be no difference in a ketogenic diet which contains fat and
one which does not contain fat.

[Stray800]

I call BS. Where are you getting your information from?

This is straight from the book on the Keto Diet by Lyle McDonald.

Keep reading - you didn't include the end of that paragraph.

The primary reason for the inclusion of dietary fat in the ketogenic diet is to keep caloric
intake high enough to prevent a slowdown of metabolic rate. Recall from chapter 8 that a caloric
deficit below 12 calories per pound of bodyweight can result in the loss of muscle and metabolic
slowdown, both of which dieters want to avoid.

Since protein and carbohydrate intake must be
kept relatively constant on a ketogenic diet, the only way to modulate caloric intake is by
changing the amount of dietary fat consumed.

In essence, after caloric requirements have been established and protein and carbohydrate
intake set, the remaining calories will come from dietary fat. The details of calculating dietary fat
requirements appear in section 6 where a complete SKD is set up.

Section 6: Setting up an SKD
Having discussed the details behind carbohydrate, protein, and fat content several diet
examples are presented here to demonstrate how the calculations are made.

General concepts
There are four steps to set up an optimal SKD.
Step 1: Set calorie levels as discussed in chapter 8.
Step 2: Set protein levels as discussed in section 2 of this chapter. Protein should be set at 0.9
gram/lb for individuals who are exercising and 0.8 grams/lb for those who are not. If daily protein
intake is below 150 grams per day, it should be adjusted upwards for the first three weeks of the
diet. Protein contains 4 calories per gram.
Step 3: Set carbohydrate levels. This will generally be below 30 grams per day, especially during
the initial weeks of the diet. Carbohydrate contains 4 calories per gram.
Step 4: Set fat intake levels. Fat intake will represent the remainder of daily calories after
protein and carbohydrate are determined. Fat has 9 calories per gram.
Two sample diets are set up below.

Example 1: 200 lb male who is weight training
Step 1: Set caloric intake: 200 lb * 12 cal/lb = 2400 calories per day
Step 2: Set protein intake: 200 lb * 0.8 g/lb = 160 grams of protein. Since protein has 4
calories/gram, this is 160 grams * 4 cal/gram = 640 calories from protein
Step 3: Set carbohydrate intake. For an SKD, we will assume 10 grams of carbohydrate per day.
Since carbohydrate has 4 calories/gram, this is 10 grams * 4 cal/gram = 40 calories from
carbohydrate.
Step 4: To determine fat intake, subtract calories from protein and carbohydrate from total
calories.
2400 calories - 640 calories - 40 calories = 1720 calories from fat
Since fat has 9 calories/gram, this is 1720 calories / 9 cal/gram = 191 grams of fat
This person?s overall diet is:
Calories: 2400
Protein intake: 160 grams/day (26%)
Carbohydrate intake: 10 grams/day
Fat intake: 191 grams/day (70%)

[RU4A69]

The initiation of ketosis and the burning of bodyfat for fuel is entirely contingent on the restriction of carbohydrate, and has absolutely nothing to do with dietary fat intake. The body burns stored fat and dietary fat without discrimination, thus there is NEVER any lack of available energy from fat (once ketosis is initiated.)

The reason we eat plenty of fat is to sustain energy levels, quell hunger, spare protein, and keep BMR high.

[Stray800]

The initiation of ketosis and the burning of bodyfat for fuel is entirely contingent on the restriction of carbohydrate, and has absolutely nothing to do with dietary fat intake. The body burns stored fat and dietary fat without discrimination, thus there is NEVER any lack of available energy from fat (once ketosis is initiated.)

The reason we eat plenty of fat is to sustain energy levels, quell hunger, spare protein, and keep BMR high.

Yes but protein must be capped as well as he states that too much protein will kick someone out of ketosis. Fat can't be seen as a purely optional macronutrient that's exists only to satiate hunger.

If you wanted to over simplify protein you could say it's sole purpose is to prevent LBM loss.


I think both macronutrients are equally important but the way Lyle McDonald has you set up your macros they end up with fats in the 65-70% range for calories.

[RU4A69]

Yes but protein must be capped as well as he states that too much protein will kick someone out of ketosis. Fat can't be seen as a purely optional macronutrient that's exists only to satiate hunger.
.

It definitely isn't an "optional" part of a functional/sustainable keto diet, but it IS optional as far as initiating and maintaining ketosis is. In fact, the quickest way to induce ketosis is to abstain from all food.

[Stray800]

It definitely isn't an "optional" part of a functional/sustainable keto diet, but it IS optional as far as initiating and maintaining ketosis is. In fact, the quickest way to induce ketosis is to abstain from all food.

That'd be alot more affordable.

[TheWaffleIron]

The initiation of ketosis and the burning of bodyfat for fuel is entirely contingent on the restriction of carbohydrate, and has absolutely nothing to do with dietary fat intake. The body burns stored fat and dietary fat without discrimination, thus there is NEVER any lack of available energy from fat (once ketosis is initiated.)

The reason we eat plenty of fat is to sustain energy levels, quell hunger, spare protein, and keep BMR high.

repped on recharge.

[Tiffany_P]

The body burns stored fat and dietary fat without discrimination, thus there is NEVER any lack of available energy from fat (once ketosis is initiated.)

Never? Are you sure about that? I've read that each pound of bodyfat can only provide energy at a rate of 31 kcals a day. If I'm 20% bodyfat, then I have 30 pounds of fat, which would be able to provide 930kcal/day. Any larger deficit would cause muscle loss, wouldn't it? What are your thoughts on that?

[RU4A69]

Never?

NEVER. When carbs are low epinephrine is high. We can think of epinephrine (aka adrenaline) as the MASTER fat burning hormone. This hormone allows for either the burning of dietary fat, or the breakdown of triglycerides into FFA's for utilization. Epinephrine levels are at absolute highest level during a fast, or several hours after your last meal.

Think of epinephrine as brightness and insulin as absolute darkness. The presence of one indicates the absence of the other.

I've read that each pound of bodyfat can only provide energy at a rate of 31 kcals a day.

There is absolutely no logic behind that assertion, but even if that were true, that would still give you quite a bit of energy availability.

The body has no reason to attempt to "spare fat" because the potential energy yield of the average person's fat stores is VERY significant - an approximate 80,000 - 100,000 + calories.

If I'm 20% bodyfat, then I have 30 pounds of fat, which would be able to provide 930kcal/day. Any larger deficit would cause muscle loss, wouldn't it? What are your thoughts on that?

I dunno for sure, but a diet exceeding a 900 cal defecit doesn't seem necessary in any scenario: certainly not in your case: 20% is very healthy and fairly lean for a woman.

[ferak]

I am not taking.. thats why I ask, I take 160g protein and 115g fat to cut the calories as low as possible.

You're only eating 1675 calories when you're 6'5 200lbs? You really need to up the fats and cals man that's not gonna get you very far doing what you're doing now.

[Tiffany_P]

Thanks for the info RU4A69. Apparently I need to spread some reps before giving it to you again...

[The Brotherhood]

The initiation of ketosis and the burning of bodyfat for fuel is entirely contingent on the restriction of carbohydrate, and has absolutely nothing to do with dietary fat intake. The body burns stored fat and dietary fat without discrimination, thus there is NEVER any lack of available energy from fat (once ketosis is initiated.)

The reason we eat plenty of fat is to sustain energy levels, quell hunger, spare protein, and keep BMR high.

This statement is self contradictory. It says that in keto it will burn stored fat indiscriminately and never not use it as an energy source. This is already a 100% protein sparing condition.

Sustaining energy levels isn't important to many people.

And then he also says it is to spare protein. Does this have more to do with protein synthesis in individuals looking for muscle hypertrophy?

So according to him in theory cutting carbs out and using all protein for daily calories is protein sparing until you have enough bodyfat stores