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  1. #1
    Registered User IwantSmallAss's Avatar
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    What is the minimum FAT intake to stay in ketosis?

    What is the minimum daily FAT intake to stay in ketosis or to efficiently cut on this diet ?
    is 115g/day critical low?
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  2. #2
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    Originally Posted by IwantSmallAss View Post
    What is the minimum daily FAT intake to stay in ketosis or to efficiently cut on this diet ?
    is 115g/day critical low?
    It depends more on your percentages than an actual exact figure.

    As long as your taking in more fat than protein you'll be ace.
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  3. #3
    Registered User IwantSmallAss's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Stray800 View Post
    It depends more on your percentages than an actual exact figure.

    As long as your taking in more fat than protein you'll be ace.
    I am not taking.. thats why I ask, I take 160g protein and 115g fat to cut the calories as low as possible.
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  4. #4
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    You should be fine as long as you meet your required protein intake and calorie intake. If you've accomplished your target protein value, then you should be taking away or adding fat to meet your calorie intake. What's your stats?
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  5. #5
    Registered User evrim's Avatar
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    Correct me if I am wrong, but ketosis occur because of the lack of carbs not the presence of extra fat. Fat provides energy
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    Originally Posted by IwantSmallAss View Post
    I am not taking.. thats why I ask, I take 160g protein and 115g fat to cut the calories as low as possible.
    If your not getting enough fat in your body you will start to burn protein for energy, the worst possible energy source of the three.
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  7. #7
    Zombie Survivalist Stray800's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by evrim View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but ketosis occur because of the lack of carbs not the presence of extra fat. Fat provides energy
    You want your fat macros to exceed your protein - or else there's no reason why your body would use fat instead of breaking the protein down instead.
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  8. #8
    Phuture Farmacist SHIFT_Pump's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Stray800 View Post
    You want your fat macros to exceed your protein - or else there's no reason why your body would use fat instead of breaking the protein down instead.
    I call BS. Where are you getting your information from?

    This is straight from the book on the Keto Diet by Lyle McDonald.

    Fat is in essence a caloric ballast, a nutrient which
    has a relatively neutral effect on insulin levels or ketosis, and which is used to adjust calories.

    All of this data suggests that dietary fat is not a necessary part of a ketogenic diet from a metabolic or adaptational standpoint as ketosis will readily develop without the consumption of
    dietary fat (assuming protein and carbohydrate intake are not too high). From a strictly metabolic standpoint, there appears to be no difference in a ketogenic diet which contains fat and
    one which does not contain fat.
    I don't always rep back, but when I do, I always rep back. ;)
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  9. #9
    Zombie Survivalist Stray800's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SHIFT_Pump View Post
    I call BS. Where are you getting your information from?

    This is straight from the book on the Keto Diet by Lyle McDonald.
    Keep reading - you didn't include the end of that paragraph.

    The primary reason for the inclusion of dietary fat in the ketogenic diet is to keep caloric
    intake high enough to prevent a slowdown of metabolic rate. Recall from chapter 8 that a caloric
    deficit below 12 calories per pound of bodyweight can result in the loss of muscle and metabolic
    slowdown, both of which dieters want to avoid.

    Since protein and carbohydrate intake must be
    kept relatively constant on a ketogenic diet, the only way to modulate caloric intake is by
    changing the amount of dietary fat consumed.

    In essence, after caloric requirements have been established and protein and carbohydrate
    intake set, the remaining calories will come from dietary fat. The details of calculating dietary fat
    requirements appear in section 6 where a complete SKD is set up.

    Section 6: Setting up an SKD
    Having discussed the details behind carbohydrate, protein, and fat content several diet
    examples are presented here to demonstrate how the calculations are made.

    General concepts
    There are four steps to set up an optimal SKD.
    Step 1: Set calorie levels as discussed in chapter 8.
    Step 2: Set protein levels as discussed in section 2 of this chapter. Protein should be set at 0.9
    gram/lb for individuals who are exercising and 0.8 grams/lb for those who are not. If daily protein
    intake is below 150 grams per day, it should be adjusted upwards for the first three weeks of the
    diet. Protein contains 4 calories per gram.
    Step 3: Set carbohydrate levels. This will generally be below 30 grams per day, especially during
    the initial weeks of the diet. Carbohydrate contains 4 calories per gram.
    Step 4: Set fat intake levels. Fat intake will represent the remainder of daily calories after
    protein and carbohydrate are determined. Fat has 9 calories per gram.
    Two sample diets are set up below.

    Example 1: 200 lb male who is weight training
    Step 1: Set caloric intake: 200 lb * 12 cal/lb = 2400 calories per day
    Step 2: Set protein intake: 200 lb * 0.8 g/lb = 160 grams of protein. Since protein has 4
    calories/gram, this is 160 grams * 4 cal/gram = 640 calories from protein
    Step 3: Set carbohydrate intake. For an SKD, we will assume 10 grams of carbohydrate per day.
    Since carbohydrate has 4 calories/gram, this is 10 grams * 4 cal/gram = 40 calories from
    carbohydrate.
    Step 4: To determine fat intake, subtract calories from protein and carbohydrate from total
    calories.
    2400 calories - 640 calories - 40 calories = 1720 calories from fat
    Since fat has 9 calories/gram, this is 1720 calories / 9 cal/gram = 191 grams of fat
    This person?s overall diet is:
    Calories: 2400
    Protein intake: 160 grams/day (26%)
    Carbohydrate intake: 10 grams/day
    Fat intake: 191 grams/day (70%)
    Last edited by Stray800; 08-14-2008 at 02:49 PM.
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  10. #10
    No cardio No cry RU4A69's Avatar
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    The initiation of ketosis and the burning of bodyfat for fuel is entirely contingent on the restriction of carbohydrate, and has absolutely nothing to do with dietary fat intake. The body burns stored fat and dietary fat without discrimination, thus there is NEVER any lack of available energy from fat (once ketosis is initiated.)

    The reason we eat plenty of fat is to sustain energy levels, quell hunger, spare protein, and keep BMR high.
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  11. #11
    Zombie Survivalist Stray800's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RU4A69 View Post
    The initiation of ketosis and the burning of bodyfat for fuel is entirely contingent on the restriction of carbohydrate, and has absolutely nothing to do with dietary fat intake. The body burns stored fat and dietary fat without discrimination, thus there is NEVER any lack of available energy from fat (once ketosis is initiated.)

    The reason we eat plenty of fat is to sustain energy levels, quell hunger, spare protein, and keep BMR high.
    Yes but protein must be capped as well as he states that too much protein will kick someone out of ketosis. Fat can't be seen as a purely optional macronutrient that's exists only to satiate hunger.

    If you wanted to over simplify protein you could say it's sole purpose is to prevent LBM loss.


    I think both macronutrients are equally important but the way Lyle McDonald has you set up your macros they end up with fats in the 65-70% range for calories.
    Last edited by Stray800; 08-14-2008 at 02:59 PM.
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  12. #12
    No cardio No cry RU4A69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Stray800 View Post
    Yes but protein must be capped as well as he states that too much protein will kick someone out of ketosis. Fat can't be seen as a purely optional macronutrient that's exists only to satiate hunger.
    .
    It definitely isn't an "optional" part of a functional/sustainable keto diet, but it IS optional as far as initiating and maintaining ketosis is. In fact, the quickest way to induce ketosis is to abstain from all food.
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  13. #13
    Zombie Survivalist Stray800's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RU4A69 View Post
    It definitely isn't an "optional" part of a functional/sustainable keto diet, but it IS optional as far as initiating and maintaining ketosis is. In fact, the quickest way to induce ketosis is to abstain from all food.
    That'd be alot more affordable.
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  14. #14
    the Hsp70 of BB.com TheWaffleIron's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RU4A69 View Post
    The initiation of ketosis and the burning of bodyfat for fuel is entirely contingent on the restriction of carbohydrate, and has absolutely nothing to do with dietary fat intake. The body burns stored fat and dietary fat without discrimination, thus there is NEVER any lack of available energy from fat (once ketosis is initiated.)

    The reason we eat plenty of fat is to sustain energy levels, quell hunger, spare protein, and keep BMR high.
    repped on recharge.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

    Nutrition and Supp Science FAQ:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=139153843&p=849049173&viewfull=1#post849049173
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  15. #15
    on a 9-month bulk Tiffany_P's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RU4A69 View Post
    The body burns stored fat and dietary fat without discrimination, thus there is NEVER any lack of available energy from fat (once ketosis is initiated.)
    Never? Are you sure about that? I've read that each pound of bodyfat can only provide energy at a rate of 31 kcals a day. If I'm 20% bodyfat, then I have 30 pounds of fat, which would be able to provide 930kcal/day. Any larger deficit would cause muscle loss, wouldn't it? What are your thoughts on that?
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    No cardio No cry RU4A69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tiffany_P View Post
    Never?
    NEVER. When carbs are low epinephrine is high. We can think of epinephrine (aka adrenaline) as the MASTER fat burning hormone. This hormone allows for either the burning of dietary fat, or the breakdown of triglycerides into FFA's for utilization. Epinephrine levels are at absolute highest level during a fast, or several hours after your last meal.

    Think of epinephrine as brightness and insulin as absolute darkness. The presence of one indicates the absence of the other.



    I've read that each pound of bodyfat can only provide energy at a rate of 31 kcals a day.
    There is absolutely no logic behind that assertion, but even if that were true, that would still give you quite a bit of energy availability.

    The body has no reason to attempt to "spare fat" because the potential energy yield of the average person's fat stores is VERY significant - an approximate 80,000 - 100,000 + calories.


    If I'm 20% bodyfat, then I have 30 pounds of fat, which would be able to provide 930kcal/day. Any larger deficit would cause muscle loss, wouldn't it? What are your thoughts on that?
    I dunno for sure, but a diet exceeding a 900 cal defecit doesn't seem necessary in any scenario: certainly not in your case: 20% is very healthy and fairly lean for a woman.
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    Originally Posted by IwantSmallAss View Post
    I am not taking.. thats why I ask, I take 160g protein and 115g fat to cut the calories as low as possible.
    You're only eating 1675 calories when you're 6'5 200lbs? You really need to up the fats and cals man that's not gonna get you very far doing what you're doing now.
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  18. #18
    on a 9-month bulk Tiffany_P's Avatar
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    BodyPoints: 6040
    Rep Power: 1942
    Tiffany_P has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Tiffany_P has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Tiffany_P has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Tiffany_P has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Tiffany_P has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Tiffany_P has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Tiffany_P has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Tiffany_P has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Tiffany_P has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Tiffany_P has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Tiffany_P has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
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    Thanks for the info RU4A69. Apparently I need to spread some reps before giving it to you again...
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