DNP Safety

[Conciliator]

Continued from http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1085921. I'd like to respond to a few different posts in a thread that's specifically about the safety of DNP.

Originally Posted by nithos

Actually, it's an insecticide, acaricide, and fungicide which someone had the bright idea to ingest. If you want to call that a weight loss drug, go for it.

This demonstrates that you have no understanding of the history of the drug. Well over 100,000 people took DNP for weight loss in prescription and OTC preparations in the 1930's. Someone didn't just come up with "the bright idea to ingest" it. Before this, it was studied clinically by Cutting at Stanford's Department of Medicine and by Tainter at Stanford's Department of Pharmacology.

DNP has properties that make it a versatile chemical. But the fact that it has so many uses has nothing to do with the facts about its safety. If it was used to prevent termites from eating railroad ties, what difference does it make when the human research shows that it's not hepatotoxic? You cannot say that its other uses logically entail that it is not intended for human use. Nature does not dictate what the drug is intended for, humans do. We can appropriate it for human use if we choose to do so, regardless of the other things we use it for. Were you aware that one of the first things that dinitronapthol was used for was a yellow food dye? In the late nineteenth century it was called "Martius Yellow" and was used to color products like pastries and macaroni so that they would appear rich in eggs. It was later found to accelerate cellular respiration and discontinued for this purpose.

[Conciliator]

Originally Posted by guy_liftin

As you said, there are very few and poor resources on the internet about using this drug. I would be scared to use it at 200mg/day. Looking at this publication would not make me want to take 200mg. Seems like one guy had 28mg DNP/L of blood, so assuming a 5L blood volume it would bring up the DNP amount in his body to 140mg. I'm not saying that it means 140 mg would kill you, but the article would make me want to think so. But it does say that the amount in admission blood sample was 140mg. That means it was 140mg before any of the blood "flushing" or whatever procedures were done. So it gives me mixed feelings. Just wanted to put this out for discussion.

200mg/day would never result in death. That I'm sure about. Trying to deduce the dosages of these two who overdosed, from the serum level, is futile. I can guarantee you they took much more than 200mg though. Unfortunately, the full text says nothing about how much they took. You'll get a much better idea of toxicity reading the ATSDR's toxicological profile on dinitrophenols. It appears the leathal dose for humans somewhere around 1-3g. Deaths where people have consumed 600mg of DNP or less, in a single dose, are essentially unheard of. I know I can take a 1000mg bolus and handle it just fine, for what it's worth.

[Conciliator]

Originally Posted by soboredvicshp

Last time I checked, 140mg in the blood for example, doesn't mean the person only took 140mg. DNP mainly goes into cells (I.E. NOT THE BLOOD FFS) and fat cells which are a solvent in the body. You would have to take a large amount to get 140mg just running around in the blood.

I have to agree here. It's going to take a lot more than a 200mg dose to get 140mg in the blood. DNP is quickly absorbed throughout the body.

[Conciliator]

For anyone who's interested, here are a few references on DNP's beneficial/protective effects: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...1&postcount=15

[Random907]

Wow. Well said.

[watchntv]

Originally Posted by Conciliator

I have to agree here. It's going to take a lot more than a 200mg dose to get 140mg in the blood. DNP is quickly absorbed throughout the body.

so when are "they" going to come out with a transdermal patch for the application of "DNP"?
something like Ortho Evra's once a week patch would be nice.

BTW: that's a kick ass back picture you have.

[Halfroman]

I would seriously like to have you write a reliable DNP profile/faq.

What is your opinion on the concept of DNP causing one to retain water and through the inhibited process of atp etc appear smaller while on cycle as well as the depletion of glycogen in the muscles that DNP is rumored to cause?

Would it be relevant to say that after coming off of DNP one would not only drop some of this water weight that is apparently gained (Can you explain why this is?) but also experiance a hypothetical muscle fullness increase back to what would be considered normal (if I do not have this correct, please feel free to explain =))

Also, do you feel there is a strong need to use an array of antioxidants etc while using DNP? Would a carb up of sorts afterwards be beneficial to a certain extent then?

Do you think running AAS whilst running DNP is a good idea for preserving mass etc whilst on? Light supplementation with t3 to counter DNP's shutdown of thyroid etc... lots of quetsions but it seems you are the guy to ask.

One last thing... DNP as i have read apparently kills vascularity while running it, is there a reason why this would be if it is true?

Thank you very much.

[Conciliator]

Originally Posted by Halfroman

I would seriously like to have you write a reliable DNP profile/faq.

I began writing a book last year on dieting with DNP. However, I've been busy with other things and haven't worked on it for months. I plan to resume writing later this year.

Originally Posted by Halfroman

What is your opinion on the concept of DNP causing one to retain water and through the inhibited process of atp etc appear smaller while on cycle as well as the depletion of glycogen in the muscles that DNP is rumored to cause?

DNP isn't just rumored to cause glycogen depletion. This was a side effect that was discovered in some of the earliest research on DNP. Corneille Heymans and his coworkers at the Laboratory of Pharmacodynamics and Therapy at the University of Ghent reported in the 1920's that by stimulating cellular metabolism, DNP administration led to a reduction of muscular and hepatic glycogen stores. This is probably why your muscles appear smaller while you're taking DNP.

DNP also causes water retention. The most likely mechanism is wholesale vasodilation in response to the increased production of heat. There's also possible water retention within fat cells that have released FFA's (a compensatory effect) and a possible effect of AMPK activation in the kidneys. Finally, there are probably changes in electrolyte levels, which affect water balance.

Originally Posted by Halfroman

Would it be relevant to say that after coming off of DNP one would not only drop some of this water weight that is apparently gained (Can you explain why this is?) but also experience a hypothetical muscle fullness increase back to what would be considered normal (if I do not have this correct, please feel free to explain =))

You'll drop the water weight when you go off cycle because you'll no longer be radiating a bunch of excess heat. The volume of blood in the veins will decrease during vasoconstriction. There'd also be a reversal of the other possible effects I noted above.

The rebound you describe is just classical glycogen supercompensation. DNP is a potent activator of AMPK, which researchers have described as a cellular fuel gauge. When AMPK is elevated, glycogen storage is stimulated. When you discontinue DNP and there's finally a surplus of glucose, there will be enhanced glycogenesis, even surpassing normal glycogen levels. The glycogen will bring a lot of water into the muscles, superhydrating them. This is a potential anabolic stimulus in its own right and provides a mechanical advantage for lifitng heavy. You then have increased mitochondrial density, but restored efficiency in energy production, which will lead to improved muscular performance.

Originally Posted by Halfroman

Also, do you feel there is a strong need to use an array of antioxidants etc while using DNP? Would a carb up of sorts afterwards be beneficial to a certain extent then?

No, not at all. This is one of the biggest misconceptions out there. DNP does not increase the production of free radicals and oxidative stress, but actually limits/eliminates mitochondrial reactive oxygen species. Mitochondrial ROS production is explained by the crowding of electrons within the respiratory chain complexes I and III. To form ROS, some of these crowded electrons escape from the normal pathway that links movement of pairs of electrons to proton pumping. Increasing permeability of the inner membrane to protons (as DNP does) facilitates this normal pathway, and hence reduces the crowding of electrons and ROS production, the price being increased waste of energy. Uncouplers dissipate the chemical gradient by providing a means by which protons can escape the intermembrane space, shorting out the gradient and allowing an increase in electron transport.

There is a catch, however. One of DNP's uncommon metabolites is a substance known as a semiquinone. These can produce substantial oxidative stress. However, the body is equipped to handle them with NADPH–semiquinone reductase. As long as your antioxidant system is normal and functioning, you shouldn't have any problems. If it's compromised, however, this quinone can result in the formation of cataracts, and possibly other adverse effects. This explains the 0.1% (1 in 1000) incidence rate of cataracts in those who took DNP in the 1930's. Accordingly, I think it's smart to take a normal daily dosage of antioxidants: 500-1000 mg/day vit C, 400-800 IU/day vit E, and if you have them, ALA, NAC, and coQ10. If you don't have these latter ones, I don't think it's worth worrying about. I would recommend against superdosing antioxidants and other ancillary supplements, which almost always causes more trouble than they prevent.

In light of my answer to your last question, yes, it would be a great time to carb load after your DNP cycle. This would fuel the glycogen supercompensation that the DNP depletion has primed.

Originally Posted by Halfroman

Do you think running AAS whilst running DNP is a good idea for preserving mass etc whilst on? Light supplementation with t3 to counter DNP's shutdown of thyroid etc... lots of quetsions but it seems you are the guy to ask.

DNP appears to burn primarily fat stores, but this does not mean that protein losses are impossible. DNP is clearly anti-catabolic in muscle compared to thyroid. If anyone doubts this, I have references. However, DNP is definitely catabolic to fat and glycogen and it likely has a minor catabolic effect in muscle. It's definitely not anabolic. AAS would be expected to help prevent losses in LBM. Personally, I don't think it's necessary though. I'd rather save my AAS for a bulker.

I do recommend taking EC or clen while on DNP for several reasons, the foremost of which is to help mobilize fat, which DNP will subsequently burn. This should help prevent protein losses by making fat more available for fuel. Other reasons include providing energy, suppressing appetite, reducing breathlessness via bronchodilation, and reducing the severity of rashes by mediating the activation of mast cells.

DNP's "shutdown" of thyroid is speculative. I've mentioned the reasons elsewhere and don't feel like going into the minutiae, but I'm not convinced that DNP leads to a reduction in T3 levels. A case report is often pointed to where two Norwegian bodybuilders showed up in the ER with low thyroid levels. I had a friend translate this (Blade from the HST forums), and it's not clear that DNP caused the drop in thyroid. In my opinion, their thyroid levels were low because they were supplementing with thyroid while taking DNP. It is true that DNP ties up the binding protein for T4, increasing T4 and T3 levels (which may trigger a negative feedback in T4 production to normalize things), but that doesn't mean that thyroid should or needs to be supplemented with. Guys I know have been on 600mg/day of DNP for 3 months and gotten blood work back with not a budge in thyroid levels. Suffice it to say, I'm not convinced and I don't recommend supplementing with T3.

Originally Posted by Halfroman

One last thing... DNP as i have read apparently kills vascularity while running it, is there a reason why this would be if it is true?

I haven't ever heard this. I'd think that the opposite would be true with the vasodilation. However, if users have experienced this to a significant degree, I'd like to hear about it.

Hope that helps,
Conciliator

[nithos]

Originally Posted by Conciliator

This demonstrates that you have no understanding of the history of the drug.

Actually, I do. I just wanted to oversimplify the statement to get my point across. When someone makes a post in a public forum asking if they should ingest an illegal compound, they are not knowledgeable enough to be taking it. Simple as that.

When they start reading about all the extremely knowledgeable people who have spent months researching the compound before finally determining it was worth the risk and having great results, it could lead them to jump in over their heads. Maybe I assume the worst of new posters sometimes on these forums when they are quick to ask these types of questions.

Quality posts Conciliator, keep up the good work.

[Halfroman]

A personal friend of mine is running the drug at about 600mg a day and has been on for about 3 weeks, while considerably leaner he has noticed he is far less vascular (I confirmed this and pointed out that while he is getting leaner he appears no more vascular...) he dosn't appear to be bothered, hel neither would I... almost 20lbs in 3 weeks, who wouldn't be lmao.

Oh, opinoins on working out while on DNP? He's dropped his training to 2-3 times a week hst style actually but extremely high rep (15-20) to avoid stress on the ATP system... furthermore he has bitched about vastly increased muscle soreness.

Ps- I take it then you are an advocate of HST/DC style training yourself?

Thank you very much for that response, it is extremely difficult to find someone willing to take the time to explain such with the knowledge behind them as well, I always want to learn more, about anything be it the simple esterficatoin of creatine to the more taboo fat loss supplements. I see no reason to close doors anywhere to knowledge if it will lead to the better usage of such compounds which, lets face it, people are going to use anyways.

Thanks again.

[user34566548717114]

Since were on the topic really intresting study
http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/111/4/438

[Conciliator]

Originally Posted by Halfroman

Oh, opinoins on working out while on DNP? He's dropped his training to 2-3 times a week hst style actually but extremely high rep (15-20) to avoid stress on the ATP system... furthermore he has bitched about vastly increased muscle soreness.

I don't see how higher rep work would avoid stressing systems that generate ATP. That's exactly what it would do. Do you mean he's trying to limit CNS fatigue?

Personally, I think he should warm up and then lift heavy with the little strength he does have. If he wants to do higher rep work or cardio, that's fine, but it should be in addition to, not instead of, the heavy work. The higher loads provide the primary stimulus to prevent muscle loss. IMO, a diet is the worst time to be intentinally dropping your loads.

Originally Posted by Halfroman

Ps- I take it then you are an advocate of HST/DC style training yourself?

Yes, I really think that there's something to higher frequency approaches that makes them superior to once a week splits, especially in naturals. 5x5, HST, and DC are all good programs.

[watchntv]

Originally Posted by Conciliator

DNP's "shutdown" of thyroid is speculative. I've mentioned the reasons elsewhere and don't feel like going into the minutiae, but I'm not convinced that DNP leads to a reduction in T3 levels. A case report is often pointed to where two Norwegian bodybuilders showed up in the ER with low thyroid levels. I had a friend translate this (Blade from the HST forums), and it's not clear that DNP caused the drop in thyroid. In my opinion, their thyroid levels were low because they were supplementing with thyroid while taking DNP. It is true that DNP ties up the binding protein for T4, increasing T4 and T3 levels (which may trigger a negative feedback in T4 production to normalize things), but that doesn't mean that thyroid should or needs to be supplemented with. Guys I know have been on 600mg/day of DNP for 3 months and gotten blood work back with not a budge in thyroid levels. Suffice it to say, I'm not convinced and I don't recommend supplementing with T3.
I haven't ever heard this. I'd think that the opposite would be true with the vasodilation. However, if users have experienced this to a significant degree, I'd like to hear about it.

Hope that helps,
Conciliator

when you did the 3 month/600mgED stint with DNP what was your diet like and did the heat from the DNP ever diminish?
I don't get the heat loss, how after taking DNP for an extended time can cause the degree of heat you feel from it to diminish,causing you to have to increase the amount of DNP to get the same effect.

: Depending on diet, DNP causes the body to react the way it would if you were riding a bike all day and if you are eating below maintenance eating 1K calories, so leptin drops, all dieting adapations occurs, but DNP isn't directly affecting hormones, so why would the uncoupling effect, not produce heat?
-maybe the cells are reducing use of ATP because you are dieting so hard and so ETC is used as much which reduces the ATP/heat being made, so the heat goes down...but the solution to the decrease of heat is adding more dnp.? so that what i just said wouldnt make sense because your cells have to keep a minimum and the most reduction in a metabolism was 30%,so at some point wouldnt you always get the heat from DNP. so when you increase DNP, how does that bring back the heat without causing the ATP made by the ETC to be lessened and eventually be less than you need to sustain life? or does DNP increase mitochondrial density? because the body just isnt making enough ATP.
That wouldn't make sense because it's suggesting dieting would increase mito density,
obviously I dont get it.,

Originally Posted by Conciliator

I began writing a book last year on dieting with DNP. However, I've been busy with other things and haven't worked on it for months. I plan to resume writing later this year.
DNP isn't just rumored to cause glycogen depletion. This was a side effect that was discovered in some of the earliest research on DNP. Corneille Heymans and his coworkers at the Laboratory of Pharmacodynamics and Therapy at the University of Ghent reported in the 1920's that by stimulating cellular metabolism, DNP administration led to a reduction of muscular and hepatic glycogen stores. This is probably why your muscles appear smaller while you're taking DNP.

DNP also causes water retention. The most likely mechanism is wholesale vasodilation in response to the increased production of heat. There's also possible water retention within fat cells that have released FFA's (a compensatory effect) and a possible effect of AMPK activation in the kidneys. Finally, there are probably changes in electrolyte levels, which affect water balance.

You'll drop the water weight when you go off cycle because you'll no longer be radiating a bunch of excess heat. The volume of blood in the veins will decrease during vasoconstriction. There'd also be a reversal of the other possible effects I noted above.

The rebound you describe is just classical glycogen supercompensation. DNP is a potent activator of AMPK, which researchers have described as a cellular fuel gauge. When AMPK is elevated, glycogen storage is stimulated. When you discontinue DNP and there's finally a surplus of glucose, there will be enhanced glycogenesis, even surpassing normal glycogen levels. The glycogen will bring a lot of water into the muscles, superhydrating them. This is a potential anabolic stimulus in its own right and provides a mechanical advantage for lifitng heavy. You then have increased mitochondrial density, but restored efficiency in energy production, which will lead to improved muscular performance.

No, not at all. This is one of the biggest misconceptions out there. DNP does not increase the production of free radicals and oxidative stress, but actually limits/eliminates mitochondrial reactive oxygen species. Mitochondrial ROS production is explained by the crowding of electrons within the respiratory chain complexes I and III. To form ROS, some of these crowded electrons escape from the normal pathway that links movement of pairs of electrons to proton pumping. Increasing permeability of the inner membrane to protons (as DNP does) facilitates this normal pathway, and hence reduces the crowding of electrons and ROS production, the price being increased waste of energy. Uncouplers dissipate the chemical gradient by providing a means by which protons can escape the intermembrane space, shorting out the gradient and allowing an increase in electron transport.

There is a catch, however. One of DNP's uncommon metabolites is a substance known as a semiquinone. These can produce substantial oxidative stress. However, the body is equipped to handle them with NADPH–semiquinone reductase. As long as your antioxidant system is normal and functioning, you shouldn't have any problems. If it's compromised, however, this quinone can result in the formation of cataracts, and possibly other adverse effects. This explains the 0.1% (1 in 1000) incidence rate of cataracts in those who took DNP in the 1930's. Accordingly, I think it's smart to take a normal daily dosage of antioxidants: 500-1000 mg/day vit C, 400-800 IU/day vit E, and if you have them, ALA, NAC, and coQ10. If you don't have these latter ones, I don't think it's worth worrying about. I would recommend against superdosing antioxidants and other ancillary supplements, which almost always causes more trouble than they prevent.

In light of my answer to your last question, yes, it would be a great time to carb load after your DNP cycle. This would fuel the glycogen supercompensation that the DNP depletion has primed.
DNP appears to burn primarily fat stores, but this does not mean that protein losses are impossible. DNP is clearly anti-catabolic in muscle compared to thyroid. If anyone doubts this, I have references. However, DNP is definitely catabolic to fat and glycogen and it likely has a minor catabolic effect in muscle. It's definitely not anabolic. AAS would be expected to help prevent losses in LBM. Personally, I don't think it's necessary though. I'd rather save my AAS for a bulker.

I do recommend taking EC or clen while on DNP for several reasons, the foremost of which is to help mobilize fat, which DNP will subsequently burn. This should help prevent protein losses by making fat more available for fuel. Other reasons include providing energy, suppressing appetite, reducing breathlessness via bronchodilation, and reducing the severity of rashes by mediating the activation of mast cells.

DNP's "shutdown" of thyroid is speculative. I've mentioned the reasons elsewhere and don't feel like going into the minutiae, but I'm not convinced that DNP leads to a reduction in T3 levels. A case report is often pointed to where two Norwegian bodybuilders showed up in the ER with low thyroid levels. I had a friend translate this (Blade from the HST forums), and it's not clear that DNP caused the drop in thyroid. In my opinion, their thyroid levels were low because they were supplementing with thyroid while taking DNP. It is true that DNP ties up the binding protein for T4, increasing T4 and T3 levels (which may trigger a negative feedback in T4 production to normalize things), but that doesn't mean that thyroid should or needs to be supplemented with. Guys I know have been on 600mg/day of DNP for 3 months and gotten blood work back with not a budge in thyroid levels. Suffice it to say, I'm not convinced and I don't recommend supplementing with T3.
I haven't ever heard this. I'd think that the opposite would be true with the vasodilation. However, if users have experienced this to a significant degree, I'd like to hear about it.

Hope that helps,
Conciliator

[10TonBrick]

not to put the wrong idea out there, but i have heard of DNP, but never really researched it...i have heard of it being very dangerous..but you are making it sound "safe" (safe is a very relative word).

any thoughts?

[Halfroman]

Not 'safe' by any means, completely unsafe when abused... bottom line though, using this stuff in small dosages in moderate periods of time and monitoring your heat levels is *reasonably* safe and extremely effective.

It's not for everyone, obviously, but it is something that needs to be acknowledged and discussed rather than swept under the rug.

[watchntv]

Originally Posted by RoidRage300

not to put the wrong idea out there, but i have heard of DNP, but never really researched it...i have heard of it being very dangerous..but you are making it sound "safe" (safe is a very relative word).

any thoughts?

anything is dangerous; drinking too much water is dangerous

I'd suggest doing research on DNP or asking Conciliator, who has done research about the drug.
Yes, DNP affects indivuals differently and some of its intermediate breakdown products are potential carcinogens. Phenol groups in general are not good neighbors in cells and tend to trigger neoplasia, either directly or indirectly
I can't say 100%, but I believe Conciliator told me no one had got cancer when DNP was used as a diet aid in the 30s, and you think he'd take it 600mg/ed if it did cause cancer?
Ive used DNP and lost more than 56.7lbs on it, (not all at once and i regained a lot between cycles cause of other issues) but it's easy to use and easy to abuse.
and anyway, don't forget:
Stewie Griffin: [in an Amsterdam hash bar] The only reason we die, is because we accept death as an inevitability.

[Conciliator]

Originally Posted by watchntv

when you did the 3 month/600mgED stint with DNP what was your diet like and did the heat from the DNP ever diminish?

That wasn't me. That was a friend of mine who's a doctor of internal medicine. The longest I've run DNP is about 3 weeks. I don't think there's anything wrong with running it longer. I just didn't have any more fat to lose. My diet was an isocaloric macronutrient diet, with calories coming equally from protein, carbs, and fat. This is what I recommend. I never noticed any diminution in heat. At 600mg/day I think you're going to be quite warm in spite of any early tolerance.

Originally Posted by watchntv

I don't get the heat loss, how after taking DNP for an extended time can cause the degree of heat you feel from it to diminish,causing you to have to increase the amount of DNP to get the same effect.

: Depending on diet, DNP causes the body to react the way it would if you were riding a bike all day and if you are eating below maintenance eating 1K calories, so leptin drops, all dieting adapations occurs, but DNP isn't directly affecting hormones, so why would the uncoupling effect, not produce heat?

Why would the uncoupling effect, not produce heat? Well the uncoupling does, but if the changes you mention result in a drop in metabolic rate, then less substrate will need to be oxidized for energy. This means there will be less uncoupling as well, which means less heat production.

I think another plausible explanation is that the body gets more effective at radiating heat, which would give the perception of reduced heat, even if the production of heat remains the same.

You lost me in the last paragraph, but yes, the solution to early tolerance is to just increase the dosage. This is what they did in the original research. Also, DNP does increase mitochondrial density.

[watchntv]

I lost you because I thought I knew but it didnt make sense until I knew about DNP increasing mito density here's my hypothesis about the acclimation of heat when taking DNP
*numbers are meaningless but to make it easier to understand

You take 10 DNP you produce 2 heat
if/when heat becomes normalized(everyone is different and DNP works the same way, but not everyone's bodies are the same)
Heat production goes down that's because
1. mito become more dense
2. depressed metabolism from the deficit(dieting adaptations)

you are going to still need less ATP with a depressed metablism, so now the ETC is depressed and doesnt make as much ATP/Heat(with DNP, your body's ETC is making 2 things, ATP and HEAT) because your body's metabolim drops., so when the requirements of ATP go down, which drops the amouint of ATP and heat being made
OR
your metabolism doesnt go down
when the mito become more dense, not as ATP is made per mito. which is the same as having a depressed metabolism, so that means not as much heat is made per mito.

that should make better sense, it could be right, I have no idea. any thoughts?
EDIT oh yeah you said the same thing about the drop in metabolism. opps

[Random907]

Originally Posted by Conciliator

That wasn't me. That was a friend of mine who's a doctor of internal medicine.

Did your friend log his experiences, I'm intersted in seeing them for myself.

[kycat2007]

If you do a search on Martius Yellow I was curious if they have changed the makeup of this now? Now it is 2,4-Dinitro-1-naphthol, I assume it is not the same as DNP correct?

[Conciliator]

Originally Posted by kycat2007

If you do a search on Martius Yellow I was curious if they have changed the makeup of this now? Now it is 2,4-Dinitro-1-naphthol, I assume it is not the same as DNP correct?

Martius Yellow has always been dinitronapthol. It's not DNP, but a similiar compound with similar effects.