Low-Carb Powerlifting

[Tom Bro]

Although some studies claim 1-2 years as long term, I'd hardly consider it long-term.
I'd define long-term as 15-20 years.

That having been said, 2 years of next to no fibre would increase risk of suffering problems in poo town later down the track, especially if fibre intake before the diet was low.

Knowamean?

Hope you haven't got the wrong idea. I'm not bagging keto dieting. Like I said, I don't eat many carbs.

Just saying we shouldn't neglect the topic of fibre, because it hadn't really been brought up in this thread beforehand.

[Reggie20x6]

I did the Anabolic Diet (5 days less than 30 g of net carbs, 2 days high carb) for 9 weeks.

I've been off of it for 3 weeks now and am thinking about going back on it. I felt better when I was on it. I stopped it originally for a week while I was away but then when I came back, the foods made me nauseous so I just stopped it.

Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience.

I've been on the Anabolic Diet since May of 2008, and I have had great success with it. This is the most clearheaded I've ever felt in my entire lifting career, and I never feel any hunger pangs and my energy levels are very consistent throughout the week. I stopped doing cardio last summer (only do short GPP now), yet this is still the leanest I've ever been in my life (and I'm not even trying to be).

As for how I handle the lack of fiber, during the week, issue:
-I have 21 ounces of broccoli, each day, Monday-Friday (about 15+ grams of fiber, each day).
-I supplement with three servings of psyllium husk powder, which I take straight out of the bottles with a teaspoon (it's like drinking a shot of dirt).

The diet is definitely not for everyone, but it works for me.

[Mustrainhard]

Although some studies claim 1-2 years as long term, I'd hardly consider it long-term.
I'd define long-term as 15-20 years.

That having been said, 2 years of next to no fibre would increase risk of suffering problems in poo town later down the track, especially if fibre intake before the diet was low.

Knowamean?

Hope you haven't got the wrong idea. I'm not bagging keto dieting. Like I said, I don't eat many carbs.

Just saying we shouldn't neglect the topic of fibre, because it hadn't really been brought up in this thread beforehand.

Firstly, low carb diets have been approved by major medical organizations in the US. These include long-term studies without any adverse effects. The biggest problem encountered was not in the "poo department", but rather in vitamin deficiencies, which were controlled for using multi-vitamins.

Secondly, starchy carbs are a relatively new addition to the human diet (10000 years ago). Before that we were mostly carnivores and our biology is highly capable and adaptable to the re-introduction of such a diet.

Thirdly,Arly is talking low-carb, and not no-carb. So, most of the factors above are a non-issue. Numerous people in this section and the general section have had great success with it. In other words,dont start disparaging the thread, unless you have a specific experience to share or know more that the top medical societies combined in the US.

[Tom Bro]

Firstly, low carb diets have been approved by major medical organizations in the US. These include long-term studies without any adverse effects. The biggest problem encountered was not in the "poo department", but rather in vitamin deficiencies, which were controlled for using multi-vitamins.

Secondly, starchy carbs are a relatively new addition to the human diet (10000 years ago). Before that we were mostly carnivores and our biology is highly capable and adaptable to the re-introduction of such a diet.

Thirdly,Arly is talking low-carb, and not no-carb. So, most of the factors above are a non-issue. Numerous people in this section and the general section have had great success with it. In other words,dont start disparaging the thread, unless you have a specific experience to share or know more that the top medical societies combined in the US.

Please show me some long-term studies.
Please show me evidence to backup that we were carnivores and that starchy carbs are a new edition.
I know he's talking low-carb not no-carb. Read my posts and you'll see I was addressing under-educated people on the matter who were claiming they had lived 'no-carb' for several months.

And I'd hardly consider openly agreeing with the topic 'disparaging the thread'

[Arlecchino]

Although some studies claim 1-2 years as long term, I'd hardly consider it long-term.
I'd define long-term as 15-20 years.

That having been said, 2 years of next to no fibre would increase risk of suffering problems in poo town later down the track, especially if fibre intake before the diet was low.

Knowamean?

Hope you haven't got the wrong idea. I'm not bagging keto dieting. Like I said, I don't eat many carbs.

Just saying we shouldn't neglect the topic of fibre, because it hadn't really been brought up in this thread beforehand.

A fifteen to twenty year dietary study? Show me a study like that other than the Harvard Nurse's study, which is little more than a longintudinal reveiw.

Children with grand mal epilepsy are sometimes placed on a ketogenic diet (extreme, with no refeed) for periods of up to five years in some cases with no major issues reported. This treatment protocol is endorsed by the Mayo Clinic as well as numerous other locations.

[Heavy_Beats]

Dessicated Coconut is 16/100g fiber, sunflower kernels are 20/100g fibre. So I have 46grams of fiber (100g coconut/150g sunflower kernels) which is not bad at all and also comes from caloric dense food which means I do not need to lose money on 2grams of fibre and negative calories (as is the case with leafy greens).

I have been on anabolic diet since it says it in my signature and it is becoming a stretch of the imagination to think what I'd be eating had I not changed over the the anabolic diet.

So my point is that low fiber is not a requirement of low carb dieting.

[Mustrainhard]

Please show me some long-term studies.
Please show me evidence to backup that we were carnivores and that starchy carbs are a new edition.
I know he's talking low-carb not no-carb. Read my posts and you'll see I was addressing under-educated people on the matter who were claiming they had lived 'no-carb' for several months.

And I'd hardly consider openly agreeing with the topic 'disparaging the thread'

It would require you to do to some research on the topic, which BTW does not mean searching threads on bb.com or other forums. It involves starting on wikipedia and reading primary literature on Pubmed. Am I going to do it for you: no.

Keywords: ketogenic diet and epilepsy, human evolution and diet.

[SophieM]

I actually get MORE fiber when doing the Anabolic Diet than when I'm not because of what I eat: tofurkey, high fiber low carb wraps, peanuts, sunflower seeds, etc. It's not hard to get in 20+ g of fiber a day, and I don't mean but eating tons of veggies.

As for ketosis being the last resort, there are Inuit tribes who basically have no carbs in their diet and they are doing just fine. It's not unnatural.

[zogorion]

Hey all, Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about my limited experience with Keto. I've done 2 experiments so far, a 1 week, and a 2 week. Observations

1. "Keto Flu" is very real but got easier to deal with the second time, so I totally agree with Arlecchino about how it is possible to get easier going in and out of keto. My flu only lasts 4-5 days so I guess I'm lucky?

2. I observed zero, to very minimal strength loss. Didn't miss any targets or rep records on my 5/3/1. Any strength loss that does occur can be countered with pre-workout stims, I feel.

3. Meal selection is kinda tough. During my 2 week trial, I was working in a remote site and was forced to buy prepared foods at walmart and bring them in a cooler, I went through many a bag/box of salad and those Tyson fully cooked chicken/steak strips and creamy dressing, natty PB, muscle milk light, cheese, beef jerky, etc.

4. Haven't got enough experience to know what I can tolerate in terms of carb-ups, refeeds, etc. so I went straight keto as opposed to TKD or CKD, next time I try this I'll experiment with peri-workout carbs and possibly a deplete workout/carbup on the weekend.

5. Keto works for me, and probably everyone who can stick with it.

6. Why are people complaining about fiber/multivitamins, that's what supps are for, no?

[Mustrainhard]

I have some questions in general: How much strength loss did y'all notice while on a low carb diet? I assume you would have some carbs pre- and post-w/o. What % of 1RM did you lift when you did low-carb, and what was your caloric deficit at that point?

[gbg]

I have some questions in general: How much strength loss did y'all notice while on a low carb diet? I assume you would have some carbs pre- and post-w/o. What % of 1RM did you lift when you did low-carb, and what was your caloric deficit at that point?

I don't notice much until the end of the week during my depletion w/o, I carb up on Fridays.

[SophieM]

I have some questions in general: How much strength loss did y'all notice while on a low carb diet? I assume you would have some carbs pre- and post-w/o. What % of 1RM did you lift when you did low-carb, and what was your caloric deficit at that point?

I didn't notice any strength loss. I gained strength in all my lifts.

I did not have carbs pre or post workout. I had 30 g or less net carbs per day except carb ups on Saturday and Sunday. I spaced my carbs throughout the day pretty well.

I lifted between 5-10 reps. With upper body getting lower reps than lower body. SLDL was also low reps, no more than 3 sets of 8 before I would increase the weight.

I was averaging ~1500-1600 during the week and 2000-2300 on the weekends. I think my weekly average was around 1700-1800. Even though that shuold have been a deficit, I was maintaining my weight for the most part.

[Mustrainhard]

I didn't notice any strength loss. I gained strength in all my lifts.

I did not have carbs pre or post workout. I had 30 g or less net carbs per day except carb ups on Saturday and Sunday. I spaced my carbs throughout the day pretty well.

I lifted between 5-10 reps. With upper body getting lower reps than lower body. SLDL was also low reps, no more than 3 sets of 8 before I would increase the weight.

I was averaging ~1500-1600 during the week and 2000-2300 on the weekends. I think my weekly average was around 1700-1800. Even though that shuold have been a deficit, I was maintaining my weight for the most part.

So, you gained strength while maintaining bodyweight, while on the diet? Which means BF% probably went down? In that case even if it doesnt work to lose weight, it should still work to lower BF, which is good to know!

Anyone use a low carb diet for losing weight, while trying to maintain strength? Since we know that carbs are essential for lifting heavy stuff, how did you work around the problem?

[Arlecchino]

I have cut using varieties of keto diets. The first time I cut carbs to make weight was in 1982. I have always used this method, and I lift better in meets than I do in the gym, so no, no decrease in strength.

Long term I use the CKD, and yes, I have gained strength while losing both weight and bodyfat.

[Arlecchino]

i always seem to notice that the older guys do well on CKD whereas the younger guys like me need more carbs for energy, growth etc

In 1982 I was fourteen years old. I have used variations of ketogenic diets for 27 years.

[Mustrainhard]

then you are obviously a very special case sir

It may have to do more with individual physiology and out-of-gym activity levels. Older people may be more settled in their lives and careers, and as a result have less opportunity to burn off their carbs outside of their training. Also individual physiology changes with age due to shifting hormonal balances. Just guesses.

[Jeremy90]

Other notes:

When low-carbing, I experienced the following:

Greater irritation of joint injuries. I have some fairly severe ones that will plague me the rest of my life. When depleted, I did not retain as much water in general, and could feel the difference. This will vary from individual to individual, and depend on the nature and extent of your injuries, etc.

Strength: I was coming back from injuries (kinda-sorta) so some of the strength I regained was easier for me than someone who had never hit better numbers, so it is difficult to go by my results. I will say that the length and cleanliness of the carb-up when dieting had the biggest effect. Obviously, the longer the carb up (to a point) the better I felt headed into my ME workouts. If I ate a lot of fat, I was not as strong.

Attitude: This is the number one reason I like the CKD. I could basically tell myself that I only had to diet for five days at a stretch. Then I could look forward to waffles, tortellini, etc. Not bad at all, IMO.

Results: In four months I cut 31lbs. (249 - 218) which is where my bodyweight stabilized for a while after adding more carbs back in. Was actually a little lower than that at the end, but some of that was water loss, which does not count unless I was trying to make weight.

not sure the joint pain has been adressed but it happened to me when I started going low carb and I doubled the amount of Fish Oil I took and it went away

[Arlecchino]

then you are obviously a very special case sir

See below.

It may have to do more with individual physiology and out-of-gym activity levels. Older people may be more settled in their lives and careers, and as a result have less opportunity to burn off their carbs outside of their training. Also individual physiology changes with age due to shifting hormonal balances. Just guesses.

This. Individual thing. I know quite a few other people who use ketogenic diets for a variety of reasons, age often has little to do with it.

not sure the joint pain has been adressed but it happened to me when I started going low carb and I doubled the amount of Fish Oil I took and it went away

Mine are severe enough that fish oil just does not do it.

I take Animal Flex like candy, that seems to help the most, plus a few other things from time to time.

[Blenderate]

I've had some success with getting stronger and improving body composition by keeping my diet low-carb throughout the day, and then eating about 150 grams of fast-acting carbs peri-workout.

[Blenderate]

Define long term.

There are certain people groups, such as the Inuit, who eat a low-carb diet their entire lives, from childhood to death. Their health has been studied and was found to be excellent, better than the average American.

[Arlecchino]

There are certain people groups, such as the Inuit, who eat a low-carb diet their entire lives, from childhood to death. Their health has been studied and was found to be excellent, better than the average American.

Yeah, this has been mentioned previously.


Point being there is still a difference between a longitudinal study performed on a very large and relatively uncontrolled group and an actual proper comparative dietary analysis, with control groups, etc.

[Arlecchino]

Thought I would update, as I am doing this stupidity once again. I say it is stupid largely because I am crying about needing to cut.

That out of the way, only changes are in re-comp. Right now it is a single day, but may extend later should I experience strength loss.

Recomping with:

Controlled Labs Golden Gains (two scoops) + one scoop Sciavation whey (vanilla). First four meals. Next one or two are whatever the hell I want. I am a powerlifter, not a freakin' bb'er.

[sword_]

Thought I would update, as I am doing this stupidity once again. I say it is stupid largely because I am crying about needing to cut.

That out of the way, only changes are in re-comp. Right now it is a single day, but may extend later should I experience strength loss.

Recomping with:

Controlled Labs Golden Gains (two scoops) + one scoop Sciavation whey (vanilla). First four meals. Next one or two are whatever the hell I want. I am a powerlifter, not a freakin' bb'er.

I've been successfully recomping with Designer Supplements' Activate. Other stuff I take:

Fish Oil
Avant Labs SyntheSIZE
Alpha-Lipoic Acid
Whey Protein
Glucosamine/Condroiton

Of course I probably contribute a lot of my recomping due to the olympic lifting in my routine. My diet isn't especially special just something like:

Meal 1: P/F (sometimes a carb like a banana)
Meal 2: P/C
Meal 3: P/F
Meal 4 (Pre-WO): P/C
Meal 5 (Post-WO): P/C
Meal 6: P/F

[UHCougar05]

I'm currently cutting as well. I've had my carbs between 0.5g/lb to 1.0g/lb of BW. I'm really going to start ratching down in the next few weeks and throw in a zero carb day here and there. My strength has actually gone up and I've been hitting consistent PRs while running 5/3/1.

I'm currently using:
TL Vasolate
Body Fortress Super Advanced Creatine () Full scoop on W/O days, 1/2 scoop every other day
I'll be starting a log for MuscleSpeed here sometime next week.

[Arlecchino]

I'm currently cutting as well. I've had my carbs between 0.5g/lb to 1.0g/lb of BW. I'm really going to start ratching down in the next few weeks and throw in a zero carb day here and there. My strength has actually gone up and I've been hitting consistent PRs while running 5/3/1.

I'm currently using:
TL Vasolate
Body Fortress Super Advanced Creatine () Full scoop on W/O days, 1/2 scoop every other day
I'll be starting a log for MuscleSpeed here sometime next week.

BF stuff is cheap, no problem with guys saving a buck or two. Times are tough. I am currently using Green Bulge, but I like Green Mag better, just because I like the taste. I am fairly picky about taste, but as I used to work in lab, I can be.

[UHCougar05]

BF stuff is cheap, no problem with guys saving a buck or two. Times are tough. I am currently using Green Bulge, but I like Green Mag better, just because I like the taste. I am fairly picky about taste, but as I used to work in lab, I can be.

I hear ya, it's good creatine, don't get me wrong, but the Super Advanced BS marketing line is a bit much. 30 servings per container for 15 bucks, but dosing it the way I do, I can make it last 6 weeks. Times are getting slim, plus with a baby on the way for the wife and I, there won't be much money for supps here in the near future.

[K11]

Earlier this year I did the anabolic diet for about 3 months to cut, while trying to increase strength on 5/3/1. Most of the weight loss was at the beginning, which I attribute to water weight, so for much of the diet there were just 2lb fluctuations each week. I had great energy throughout and made great progress on my lifts (especially bench, oddly enough), and my hair and skin was never better. Then it changed into something more closely following Thibaudeau's principles, and now I'm just carb cycling. I stopped low carb for a few reasons:

- I was not losing fat at a desirable rate, and if I'm not losing fat or gaining muscle I wasn't going to continue that diet plan
- I wanted to eat a wider variety of vegetables that were higher in sugar (brussels sprouts, carrots, peas) but they didn't fit into the macros
- I found myself eating things just because they were high in fat and fit the macros, which I wouldn't have done otherwise
- I felt food such as sweet potatoes, beans, oats, etc were still very beneficial in my diet and wanted to include them.

So, low carb for me definitely had its pros and I was surprised I progressed as well as I did with 5/3/1 while on it, but at the time I felt the "anabolic lifestyle" was unsustainable for me. The food was awesome though and I did have good energy so I'm sure I'll do some form of low carb in the future just for kicks.

[Arlecchino]

I hear ya, it's good creatine, don't get me wrong, but the Super Advanced BS marketing line is a bit much. 30 servings per container for 15 bucks, but dosing it the way I do, I can make it last 6 weeks. Times are getting slim, plus with a baby on the way for the wife and I, there won't be much money for supps here in the near future.

Yeah, well, you know all about supplement hype, don't you Mr. Rep?

Earlier this year I did the anabolic diet for about 3 months to cut, while trying to increase strength on 5/3/1. Most of the weight loss was at the beginning, which I attribute to water weight, so for much of the diet there were just 2lb fluctuations each week. I had great energy throughout and made great progress on my lifts (especially bench, oddly enough), and my hair and skin was never better. Then it changed into something more closely following Thibaudeau's principles, and now I'm just carb cycling. I stopped low carb for a few reasons:

- I was not losing fat at a desirable rate, and if I'm not losing fat or gaining muscle I wasn't going to continue that diet plan
- I wanted to eat a wider variety of vegetables that were higher in sugar (brussels sprouts, carrots, peas) but they didn't fit into the macros
- I found myself eating things just because they were high in fat and fit the macros, which I wouldn't have done otherwise
- I felt food such as sweet potatoes, beans, oats, etc were still very beneficial in my diet and wanted to include them.

So, low carb for me definitely had its pros and I was surprised I progressed as well as I did with 5/3/1 while on it, but at the time I felt the "anabolic lifestyle" was unsustainable for me. The food was awesome though and I did have good energy so I'm sure I'll do some form of low carb in the future just for kicks.

Yeah, if I were doing the anabolic diet I would tweak it a bit. Really, after 25 years or so of adjusting, the CKD works best for me, but like all other things, this will vary from person to person.

I know people who have cut for a meet or something else on high carb low fat, isocaloric, etc. Trick is finding the method that works for you.

[UHCougar05]

Yeah, well, you know all about supplement hype, don't you Mr. Rep?

Ok, ya got me.

[jmt92]

So how many carbs a day shoulkd I aim for on my low carb days with the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet?I've began it this week, sort of toying with it trying to get my meals down pat.So how low are we talking compared ot our high carb days?

EDIT: or would a different approach with carb cycling be better to handle for me(with school and all?)