PHs ARE NOT FOR 21 and under!

[jcosley]

Why are so many of you underage (and i mean under 21) bodybuilders out there looking to take Prohormones (PHs) ?? There has been thread after thread seeking approval and NO ONE on here is going to say..."yeah go and take it dude....NO WORRIES!" Here is why...

If you are 21 and under...

Who should use prohormones?

Mature adults above the age of 21 looking for increases in lean muscle mass or decreases in bodyfat levels. Most veterans will advise using prohormones after several years of training, to ensure you have a good feel for proper diet, nutrition and supplementation. Using prohormones under the age of 18 is a very bad idea; it can result in the closure of growth plates, thus resulting in permanently stunted growth; it can also result in potentially serious endocrine system problems. Those with potential for or already enlarged prostate or those susceptible to male pattern baldness should not use prohormones; nor should prohormones be used by people with heart conditions, who currently have gynocomastia, or have liver or kidney problems. If you have any doubts, see a doctor before using these compounds.

Pro Hormone FAQ.
Please read before posting.

Statement 1: Hey guys! I'm a 16-20 year old guy who cant put on weight....
Stop. Notice your age. In mathematical terms it looks like this:
19 < 21 = no ph's
Eat more. Sleep More. You will be able to gain weight. But phs may dramatically affect your body's ability to produce and utilize testosterone in the future.

Statement 2:How much/What do I have to eat?
Everyone is different. Theres a section called diet. Post there.




Prohormone Classification

Steroids are classified under 2 categories. Class I has a strong binding to the androgen receptor. Class II does not bind to the androgen receptors, rather it works through other means in the body.

Simply put:
Class I = binds to androgen receptor
Class II = does not.

These prohormones classifications are based on thier steroid counterparts. If there are any revisions needed PLEASE message me.
Class I
Boldenone based phs - 1,4AD & Bold
Progestin based phs - (similar to trenbolone) - Trenadrol & Trenaplex
Dienolone based phs - (again similar to tren) - Mdien
Mepitiostane (Thioderon) based phs - Epithio & Clones (Havoc/Epistane/so on so forth)
Desoxymethyltestosterone/DMT (Madol) based phs - pheraplex & clones
Testosterone
DHT (Dihydrotestosterone) based phs - M5AA

Class II
Masteron (Dromostanolone) based phs - Superdrol & Clones
Oral Turinabol (Dehydrochlormethyltestosterone) based phs - Halodrol & Clones
Dianabol (methandrostenolone) based phs - M1,4ADD, M1T, 1-T, Methyl XT
Winstrol (stanozolol) based phs - Winztrol, Orastan-A, Furaguno, etc
Furazabol (miotolan) based phs - Furazadrol etc
Progesterone based phs - Revolt, Propadrol, Max LMG
Clostebol based phs - Chlorodrol, Oxyguno
4-AD

Not Prohormones...
AMS's products - test boosters
Testabolan is not a prohormone, it is an ecdysterone, tribulus, oglio peptide product.
Superdrol NG - Prasterone = DHEA, Methyl Xanthine = Caffine, Aprodine HCL = Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride, ATD - test booster/aromatase inhibitor

I would like to add that Eyayo showed me that Mass Tabs is a prosteroid - 2a, 17a-dimethyl 17b-hydroxy 5a-androstan-1-ene-3-one
however since its close to about 3-4 steroids/other prohormone compounds out there, I cant classify it. I would guess its a class 2 though.

If you plan on stacking two prohormones at the same time, the best combinations are class I mixed with a class II. For example SD/Bold, Halo/Tren, M1T/Prop, and so on..

Here's why, effectively when you take a class 1/class 1 stack, you're theoretically limiting your body's ability to suck up the little steroid molecules you're pumping into it. Think of it like a burger joint parking lot at lunchtime. There are no parking spots available, and you're stuck lying in wait for a spot to open up.

However, with a class 1/class 2 combination while one pro hormone floats around binding to the androgen receptor, the other little guy is busy attaching itself to other parts of the body to encourage growth.

[otisthebat]

because kids are stupid and think they are invincible. they want a quick result and dont care how they get it.

[moondo57]

Is there any benefits from them being class 1 or class 2? Good post also.

[jcosley]

1. Are prohormones legal?

Yes, currently they are legal in the US and some other countries. Please visit www.usfa.biz and write your politicians to ensure they stay that way. Prohormones are not tested for in job drug tests, but they are probably banned and can potentially show up on a drug test for athletics. Check your local laws for specific information.

2. Who should use prohormones?

Mature adults above the age of 21 looking for increases in lean muscle mass or decreases in bodyfat levels. Most veterans will advise using prohormones after several years of training, to ensure you have a good feel for proper diet, nutrition and supplementation. Using prohormones under the age of 18 is a very bad idea; it can result in the closure of growth plates, thus resulting in permanently stunted growth; it can also result in potentially serious endocrine system problems. Those with potential for or already enlarged prostate or those susceptible to male pattern baldness should not use prohormones; nor should prohormones be used by people with heart conditions, who currently have gynocomastia, or have liver or kidney problems. If you have any doubts, see a doctor before using these compounds.

3. Can I take prohormones along with steroids?

This is a hotly debated subject. Yes, you can - but why? If you have access to steroids, why would you bother with prohormones? Anabolic steroids are already hormones in their current form and require no conversion - hence, they are more powerful, albeit illegal.
The only compound I would say that you could take with any other steroid would be
1-testosterone, which would be an equivalent of Primobolan or Equipose. The only other thing I can think of would be taking 4AD with Fina to reduce side effects. There is more information about this on boards like Anabolicminds or Animal' s board.

4. How can I avoid some of the potential side effects associated with prohormones?

There are certain ancillary compounds available to treat potential side effects of prohormones. Below is a list I compiled which is pretty basic and should help clarify some of the issues of side effects.

Prostate Issues

The prostate is an organ at the neck of the bladder where it joins the urethra. It is responsible for controlling urination and ejaculation. Common symptoms of prostate problems are frequent or difficult urination, dribbling when urinating, erection difficulty, and pain in that general area. Either a rise in estrogen or DHT levels from increased testosterone, etc., probably causes this. If you have ongoing prostate issues, it' s best not to use prohormones, though potentially the use of nordiol might be acceptable.

Herbal treatments:
Saw Palmetto Extract - Usual dosage is 160mg several times daily
Beta sisterol or plant phytosterols - 300mg several times daily
Flax seed oil - anywhere from 5-20 tblspoons daily

Prescription Treatments:
Proscar/Propecia - blocks the conversion of testosterone to DHT. Ineffective with DHT derived hormones (1-test, 1ad, 5aa, etc)
Spironolactone - an anti androgen. Best not used for this, but used topically (more below)

Acne

Acne is very common on prohormone cycles, and can range from mild to moderate. It will go away once post cycle treatment concludes, or within a few weeks of cession of the product. The best way to treat acne is with the soaps available at your local grocery store or pharmacy. Just pick up some Neutrogena or whatever and scrub your face twice a day or use the body wash.

Hair Loss

Hair loss is caused by increased levels of DHT. Since DHT receptors are heavy on the top of the scalp, some people will notice a lot of shedding or a receding hairline on some cycles. There are various treatments for this; the most common is topical Spironolactone available from Nizoralman or Dr. Lee. The 2% will work as a preventative measure, while the 5% will attempt to help grow some hair back. There are also other methods, such as azelaic acid or Nizoral shampoo, but they are not proven to be effective as spiro is.
If you are concerned you are losing your hair and are currently taking something to help prevent it, prohormones are probably not the best idea. If still interested in using prohormones, Nordiol might be the best option available to you.

Gyno

Gynocomastia, or development of the breast tissue, is sometimes common among aromatizing (converting to estrogen) prohormones. The first symptoms are puffy and itchy or swollen nipples. If you start to notice this while on a cycle, you need to start taking Nolvadex immediately. Formasin/Aromazap/Formastat might work, but 6oxo is not going to help this in most cases, so Nolvadex should ALWAYS be on hand for this situation. It is highly available, not very expensive, and not illegal to posses, so there is no reason not to have it. Don' t wait and order some when you start to get the first signs of gyno, because Nolvadex needs to be taken as soon as symptoms of gyno appear. Start taking 40mg a day until the symptoms subside, and you may want to continue to take 10mg the rest of your cycle as precaution.

Liver/Kidney

Prohormones have to pass through your liver in order to convert, no matter what the route of administration, so higher levels of liver enzymes in the blood is common during a cycle. Many steroid users take Milk Thistle and ALA at high doses to combat this, and if you are concerned it would be a good idea to take one or both of these to help that. Problems with kidneys have not been an issue to my knowledge, but steroid users will often also take cranberry juice extract to help with that.

Depression

Some people report mild or moderate depression, especially post cycle when using 6oxo. This can be cured with prescription drugs such as Zoloft, Prozac, Paxil, etc. It can also be fought with herbal supplements such as St Johns Wort, 5-HTP or Sam-E. If you go with the herbal route, St Johns Wort should be 300mg 2-3 times daily, 5-HTP at 100mg several times daily, or 100-200mg of Sam-E once daily. You can combine all three if depression is extreme, otherwise my pick would be St. Johns Wort.

Testicular Atrophy

Many users report testicular shrinkage during a cycle. The testes will come back to full size once you start post cycle. If they do not, then it' s recommended you take Clomid and possibly even HCG to help restore them.

Sleeplessness

Some people report having trouble falling asleep or staying asleep on a cycle. My recommendation is to take 1mg to 3mg of melatonin 30 minutes before bed time. Some other options are Valerian root, GABA, Tylenol PM or Kava Kava (potentially stressful on the liver).

5. What kind of training should I use when using prohormones?

Everyone has their own opinion on this, and you should use whatever works for use. Most people put an emphasis on higher volume while using prohormones, and you can add more isolation sets and workout more frequently due to increased recovery time. But don' t overtrain. Just because you' re using prohormones doesn' t mean you need to train daily or twice daily. Also, doing cardio on prohormones is fine. I recommend 2-3 times weekly of 20 minutes, if at all.

6. How should I eat when on prohormones?

Try and eat 1-2g of protein per pound of body weight. Try and eat 500-1000 calories above maintenance, or more if bulking. Generally, standard nutrition guidelines should be followed. If cutting, try and eat 10-12 calories per pound of bodyweight, while keeping protein high.

7. Should I take any other supplements while using prohormones?

Take whatever you normally take. If you take creatine, it' s fine to continue taking it while using prohormones. Some people prefer to save it for post cycle to help retain some of the water weight. Otherwise, the usual stuff like a multivitamin, a good protein powder and flax seed oil should be standard issue for any athlete.

SOURCES: Discussbodybuilding.com and also anabolicsonline.com

[jcosley]

because kids are stupid and think they are invincible. they want a quick result and dont care how they get it.

This is what i'm trying to STOP. They have to realize that is kinda pointless when they have RAGING HORMONES already at that age up until their 20s. Totally stupid to screw your body up that early....WHY PEOPLE come on!

[Charge]

Go over to the teen section and all/everybody do/wants take mass-fx and 3-AD. And thank god I only took M-stak instead of this 3-AD or any of that other ****.

[MoonMan12]

This is what i'm trying to STOP. They have to realize that is kinda pointless when they have RAGING HORMONES already at that age up until their 20s. Totally stupid to screw your body up that early....WHY PEOPLE come on!

Chances are good your test is higher than the average teen's. Isn't the peak usually in mid to late 20's? Let's fight this with something other than misinformation please.

[SplashN96]

Good Read!

here's a quote for teens thinking about using...

"Taking steroids is like an Ace card. Everybody has a chance to play his Ace. If you need to play your Ace to be a high school football star, odds are you're not going to go onto college. If you have to play your Ace to win Mr. Wisconsin, you're not going to be Mr. Olympia..."

-Dave Tate

[RyanGrob]

Go over to the teen section and all/everybody do/wants take mass-fx and 3-AD. And thank god I only took M-stak instead of this 3-AD or any of that other ****.

mass fx isn't a PH, it's an AI albeit should still be taken 18+.

[Charge]

mass fx isn't a PH, it's an AI albeit should still be taken 18+.

I know, 3-AD is.

[iForce Dave]

no offense or anything but I dont think you can judge and make a blanket statement like that.

Age is just a number. And unless you, as in the OP, have some serious medical data and not just an opinion I dont think you should make these kinds of statements.

There are plenty of people who are 18,19,20 who use prohormones safely. I dont know what kind of experience you have dealing with people who run cycles, but I do. And you have to realize that the bodybuilding.com forum represents a miniscule percentage of bodybuilders. Coming from someone who has worked in the field, worked in stores, worked training people, and helped countless people put cycles together and corresponded with them before, during, and after I can say that it moreso comes down to experience and knowing what you need to do while on cycle and off.

I have met plenty of people that have more experience than you and know more about bodybuilding and supplementing and hormones than you and just because they arent 21 doesnt mean they should listen to this.

nothing magical happens when you turn 21. I have seen plenty of people on this board who are 23, 24, 25 etc who look like ****. They look like they dont know the difference between a protein shake and a milkshake. Yet all of a sudden they can cycle because they are over 21.

[jcosley]

no offense or anything but I dont think you can judge and make a blanket statement like that.

Age is just a number. And unless you, as in the OP, have some serious medical data and not just an opinion I dont think you should make these kinds of statements.

There are plenty of people who are 18,19,20 who use prohormones safely. I dont know what kind of experience you have dealing with people who run cycles, but I do. And you have to realize that the bodybuilding.com forum represents a miniscule percentage of bodybuilders. Coming from someone who has worked in the field, worked in stores, worked training people, and helped countless people put cycles together and corresponded with them before, during, and after I can say that it moreso comes down to experience and knowing what you need to do while on cycle and off.

I have met plenty of people that have more experience than you and know more about bodybuilding and supplementing and hormones than you and just because they arent 21 doesnt mean they should listen to this.

nothing magical happens when you turn 21. I have seen plenty of people on this board who are 23, 24, 25 etc who look like ****. They look like they dont know the difference between a protein shake and a milkshake. Yet all of a sudden they can cycle because they are over 21.

Lately the people on here are like....hey im 14,15,16,17 and I want to take....3AD or this and that.....you can not sit there and tell me that can be good for that young of an individual's body and aid in their maturity. That is ridiculous. Now....as in 18-21...you are probably a little safer but still isnt the best idea in the world to be doing it.

[iForce Dave]

Lately the people on here are like....hey im 14,15,16,17 and I want to take....3AD or this and that.....you can not sit there and tell me that can be good for that young of an individual's body and aid in their maturity. That is ridiculous. Now....as in 18-21...you are probably a little safer but still isnt the best idea in the world to be doing it.

I know what you mean. And I can usually tell if someone is ready within 30 seconds of talking to them just out of the questions they ask and what they say.

Didnt mean to blunt your thread, just giving my thoughts so lets bump this.

[bigla2004]

I know what you mean. And I can usually tell if someone is ready within 30 seconds of talking to them just out of the questions they ask and what they say.

Didnt mean to blunt your thread, just giving my thoughts so lets bump this.

I see both sides. If I wanted to go that route (I'm staying "natural"), I have very little doubts I could use a PH safely. However, I do tons of research and just like to be informed in general, where your average kid on here comes wanting to get huge quick and typically doesn't even have an optimal diet. Dalvare brings up a good point that age is a number, albeit the 21+ recommendation is usually the right one. I agree with your post in the large majority of incidents, it is just that is a bit of a blanket statement.

[GetBig87]

Hey guys I'm new here but here's my info. I'm 15, 125 lbs and I want to play football for my HS. What PH would be the best for me? and what does PCT stand for?























kidding.

[iForce Dave]

Hey guys I'm new here but here's my info. I'm 15, 125 lbs and I want to play football for my HS. What PH would be the best for me? and what does PCT stand for?
kidding.

start off with cell tech, and taper up to cell tech hardcore

[SplashN96]

Hey guys I'm new here but here's my info. I'm 15, 125 lbs and I want to play football for my HS. What PH would be the best for me? and what does PCT stand for?























kidding.

Maybe a mild cycle like Di-Methyl Tren/Dbol+test/SD+PP bridged for 3 months...




kidding too

[jcosley]

I know what you mean. And I can usually tell if someone is ready within 30 seconds of talking to them just out of the questions they ask and what they say.

Didnt mean to blunt your thread, just giving my thoughts so lets bump this.

And your points are very valid. Thing I dont understand about alot of people on this forum is....they want to take something without doing any research about it. Why put something in your body and not knowing how to make it work?

[jcosley]

start off with cell tech, and taper up to cell tech hardcore

ONLY the best of the BEST can take CELL-TECH HARDCORE! Do i need a PCT with CELL TECH>>>?????

[.:BOB:.]

Well I did a cycle when I was 20 of 1-ad for 6 weeks at the recommended dosage then ran a 6-oxo PCT for 4 weeks at the recommended dosages. Now I honestly knew nothing about what I was taking but I also didnt know about this website either. When you are young it is so easy to just take something because it is legal, I mean who sells steroids legally right?? Well anyways I had a solid year of lifting under my belt but lost most of my gains probably due to diet/inadequate PCT. I told my doctor that I did this cycle at the age of 20 and he said it didnt make much of a difference 20-21. Well thats my story thought I would share.

[jcosley]

Well I did a cycle when I was 20 of 1-ad for 6 weeks at the recommended dosage then ran a 6-oxo PCT for 4 weeks at the recommended dosages. Now I honestly knew nothing about what I was taking but I also didnt know about this website either. When you are young it is so easy to just take something because it is legal, I mean who sells steroids legally right?? Well anyways I had a solid year of lifting under my belt but lost most of my gains probably due to diet/inadequate PCT. I told my doctor that I did this cycle at the age of 20 and he said it didnt make much of a difference 20-21. Well thats my story thought I would share.

THANKS FOR SHARING THAT BROTHA!

[XPredatorX]

no offense or anything but I dont think you can judge and make a blanket statement like that.

Age is just a number. And unless you, as in the OP, have some serious medical data and not just an opinion I dont think you should make these kinds of statements.

There are plenty of people who are 18,19,20 who use prohormones safely. I dont know what kind of experience you have dealing with people who run cycles, but I do. And you have to realize that the bodybuilding.com forum represents a miniscule percentage of bodybuilders. Coming from someone who has worked in the field, worked in stores, worked training people, and helped countless people put cycles together and corresponded with them before, during, and after I can say that it moreso comes down to experience and knowing what you need to do while on cycle and off.

I have met plenty of people that have more experience than you and know more about bodybuilding and supplementing and hormones than you and just because they arent 21 doesnt mean they should listen to this.

nothing magical happens when you turn 21. I have seen plenty of people on this board who are 23, 24, 25 etc who look like ****. They look like they dont know the difference between a protein shake and a milkshake. Yet all of a sudden they can cycle because they are over 21.

Good Post. I think that the maturity level plays a huge part as well. ( I have NOT run any PH's yet,) If you know your stuff and know exactly what dosage for both the cycle and the pct, then like many people said, "21 is just a number". I can see the other side of it, but if you run a mild cyle of say H-drol at 50,50,50,75, with hawthorne berry 14 days prior and milk thistle throughout, WITH A SOLID PCT, then is that ok. I mean some people want to start out on top, (superdrol), when they should start out on the bottom,(h-drol)

[tdog69]

Good Post. I think that the maturity level plays a huge part as well. ( I have NOT run any PH's yet,) If you know your stuff and know exactly what dosage for both the cycle and the pct, then like many people said, "21 is just a number". I can see the other side of it, but if you run a mild cyle of say H-drol at 50,50,50,75, with hawthorne berry 14 days prior and milk thistle throughout, WITH A SOLID PCT, then is that ok. I mean some people want to start out on top, (superdrol), when they should start out on the bottom,(h-drol)

I think if you can ask yourself why I should take it and have a solid answer besides speed up results then you would be ready. Despite age I think there is a lot of people on here that have not even reached their natural peaks that may never come close to hitting there peaks because they jump on the PH/DS bandwagon too early in their training.

I have taken PHs in the past and recently to overcome road blocks and no matter what PCT you use the gains are harder to maintain and you have to train your ass off to keep them.

[XPredatorX]

I think if you can ask yourself why I should take it and have a solid answer besides speed up results then you would be ready. Despite age I think there is a lot of people on here that have not even reached their natural peaks that may never come close to hitting there peaks because they jump on the PH/DS bandwagon too early in their training.

I have taken PHs in the past and recently to overcome road blocks and no matter what PCT you use the gains are harder to maintain and you have to train your ass off to keep them.

If you do keep up with your training and the pct is on track, will you keep most of your gains or is it hard to say?

[jcosley]

If you do keep up with your training and the pct is on track, will you keep most of your gains or is it hard to say?

I kept gaining strength on PCT from 11 oxo/6oxo....i think you need to just work hard and you should keep your gains. I think if you go in on your pct and expect to lose your gains....its more mental...if you go in the gym with a purpose and say...i'm lifting more then last week (every week) then your body has no choice then to grow stronger. IMO.

[XPredatorX]

I kept gaining strength on PCT from 11 oxo/6oxo....i think you need to just work hard and you should keep your gains. I think if you go in on your pct and expect to lose your gains....its more mental...if you go in the gym with a purpose and say...i'm lifting more then last week (every week) then your body has no choice then to grow stronger. IMO.

thx

[MattyH7688]

are you an endocrinologist?

if not stfu

[jcosley]

thx

No problem.

[jcosley]

are you an endocrinologist?

if not stfu

Who are you talking to? Me?

[MattyH7688]

Who are you talking to? Me?

no the other idiot who just spreads around a bunch of useless broknowledge