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  1. #2641
    Rocky Training Mod Nainoa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Procta View Post
    what you use for a reservoir on the roof

    I don't know if you recall... But before I bought the current property my best friend and I were talking about splitting the cost on 40 acres on a private lake 5 miles off the nearest grid.

    Our plan for that shower and water situation was to build a screened gutter system where roof water runs down to a screened off gutter and moves to an insulated resevoir in the attic of the house where we could heat it. (Though I like Ryou's coil idea better)

    The house/cabin would be built as a walk out in the side of the hill and so the water would literally be coming down 2 stories to the outdoor shower head, before running down the slouseway to the buffer of the swamp.
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  2. #2642
    Omega Level RyouBakua's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    one of my many projects
    solar shower with graywater irrigation
    (no electricity for heating and gallons of water used to water plants that would ultimately be flushed down the drain)

    Originally Posted by Procta View Post
    what you use for a reservoir on the roof
    Originally Posted by Nainoa View Post
    What I learned in my portable rain barrel system was that it took a large volume of water at a decent height to get decent pressure... And that was maybe HALF of my garden hose at it's best.

    55 gallons at an 8 foot drop was about half hose pressure.

    I would imagine the coil system would heat up faster and cool down faster... So like you could shower at sundown and have warm water, but by morning it would be air temp cold... VS the big solar bag... I've seen them stay warm with the days heat through a warm summer night.

    I could see the coil being for heating... Then it dumps into a bag for storage etc, I mean a bag only costs like $10-$15 at any camping store... The coil could be spendy... I'd imagine a regular hose is the cheapest, but a copper pipe painted black would heat the fastest.
    yeah, its definitely a work in progress

    i work on the cheap and i try to recycle other products so i doubt it would come out looking that nice

    im also trying to draw up something that could be used an "emergency" shower for when the power AND the water gets shut off


    a solar bag worked great in those times as you could heat up a small amount of water and it would warm the entire thing up

    (un)fortunately the weather is quite hot here so i dont have to worry about nainoas snow
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  3. #2643
    Rocky Training Mod Nainoa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    yeah, its definitely a work in progress

    i work on the cheap and i try to recycle other products so i doubt it would come out looking that nice

    im also trying to draw up something that could be used an "emergency" shower for when the power AND the water gets shut off


    a solar bag worked great in those times as you could heat up a small amount of water and it would warm the entire thing up

    (un)fortunately the weather is quite hot here so i dont have to worry about nainoas snow
    I was thinking about it while chowing on some lunch...

    Here's what I was thinking rough plan...

    Lets assume you want to shower indoors and you've got a bathroom... No grid power, but available water from a well or a rain barrel etc...

    Materials:
    11 Watt solar panel $150 new
    Old car or wheel chair battery (Gel Cell is better than lead-acid)
    12V pump (Slow but will get the job done.

    Collection barrel on the ground level that you pour water into from XYZ source. (Blue plastic Molasses Barrels from bread factory loading docks)
    An old water heater... OR just another collection barrel that you insulate like crazy with household insulation.

    General purpose garden hose
    Black Spray Paint
    Tons of Tephlon tape.
    Copper pipe

    The copper pipe is probably the back breaker pricewise if you buy it new... BUT with some skill and charm you might be able to find a demo place that will let you scavenge it, or a junk yard. Otherwise standard metal pipe are the harware store might be just as good.



    So the solar panel wires to the Gel Cell battery... The Charge from the Gel Cell Battery runs the cheapo little 12V pump... The 12V pump sends water from the ground level collection barrel (Filled from whatever source) up to the piped coils painted black on the roof.

    You'll need to put a valve on the terminus end of the pipe.

    So when you start your day in the morning... Run the pump to fill the pipes so they can begin heating with the light of the sun. When they come up to temp... Say 100-120 degrees F... You turn the valve and the water runs from there to the old water heater/Insulated barrel in the attic above the bathroom/shower.

    If there's still light left in the day you can pump another load of water up to the pipes from the collection barrel.

    When you get to the end of the day, turn the open flow valve on the old water heater which will run down to the shower head valve and you'll have your own hot water gravity shower.

    Assuming you're using a soap that has a balanced PH and is in some way eco friendly, the water can then go down the drain and be piped to the garden grey watering system.
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  4. #2644
    Omega Level RyouBakua's Avatar
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    good write up. i like how you think.


    now how to do it without electricity...


    some pics to get the wheels turning









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  5. #2645
    Rocky Training Mod Nainoa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    good write up. i like how you think.


    now how to do it without electricity...


    some pics to get the wheels turning









    You can get a hand siphon pump for $3.99 at WalMart... But you'll have Carple Tunnel inside a year!

    You could also just put a collection barrel strapped to the chimney that pipes to the black pipes and you fill it with bucket and ladder every morning.

    I'm sure you could even adapt an old well hand pump...

    Whatever method you prefer to get water up hill.

    In theory you wouldn't even have to do it on the house... You could do it on the side of a hill and wheel barrow the water up... Then cut a notch out of the side of the hill at teh bottom and build your shower.


    The most important part, I think is the insulated storage tank after the water has been heated.


    In my original idea for the cabin we were going to heat the water on top of a wood stove and have the 12V pump send it up to the insulated tanks in the attic...But that would suck in the summer time when it's 90 degrees and there's an F-ing wood stove ROARING in the cabin.


    Not to mention you ultimately go through a lot more wood than you might think to heat a significant amount of water.

    So like in a 4 season place, with the 12V pump method, you could heat the water in the summer with the black pipes... Then you could heat the water in the winter on the wood stove, since it will already be burning anyway.
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  6. #2646
    Doin' Work KSUtfx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    one of my many projects

    solar shower with graywater irrigation

    (no electricity for heating and gallons of water used to water plants that would ultimately be flushed down the drain)


    A small sealed greenhouse built over the coil could increase the solar heatgain while preventing a cool wind from stealing your hard earned heat away. This would also allow you to run the "water heater" later in the year and into colder temperatures... What'd y'all think?

    Also, just a side note, a south facing slope will gain much more heat throughout the day than an east or west down-slope. North facing slopes are the worst possible choice though.

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  7. #2647
    Rocky Training Mod Nainoa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KSUtfx View Post
    A small sealed greenhouse built over the coil could increase the solar heatgain while preventing a cool wind from stealing your hard earned heat away. This would also allow you to run the "water heater" later in the year and into colder temperatures... What'd y'all think?
    My first reaction is "Good Idea!"

    BUT... then when you think about it, we're talking about something on a roof, which is very exposed to things like wind and hail. So you're going to be shredding through plastic on a weekly basis. You'd have to get some storm rated glass, like people have in houses that have skylights.

    If you buy it new it's gonna throw any real cost savings out the window. You're not going to see a return on investment for like 10 years... But if a guy is a good scavenger and/or knows a someone in demo industry, you could get lucky.
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  8. #2648
    Doin' Work KSUtfx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nainoa View Post
    My first reaction is "Good Idea!"

    BUT... then when you think about it, we're talking about something on a roof, which is very exposed to things like wind and hail. So you're going to be shredding through plastic on a weekly basis. You'd have to get some storm rated glass, like people have in houses that have skylights.

    If you buy it new it's gonna throw any real cost savings out the window. You're not going to see a return on investment for like 10 years... But if a guy is a good scavenger and/or knows a someone in demo industry, you could get lucky.
    True, I was thinking of it as more of a sustainable off-the-grid idea, increasing the efficiency and power of your natural heating system.. Do you have a greenhouse that you maintain or does the weather not permit a greenhouse for the winter in your neck of the woods?
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  9. #2649
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    first and foremost, youve got to build to your environment




    ie. dont live in a van if youre in tornado alley
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  10. #2650
    Rocky Training Mod Nainoa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KSUtfx View Post
    True, I was thinking of it as more of a sustainable off-the-grid idea, increasing the efficiency and power of your natural heating system.. Do you have a greenhouse that you maintain or does the weather not permit a greenhouse for the winter in your neck of the woods?
    At the old place I had a greenhouse... I used to sell Heirloom seedlings for side money when I lived in the city.

    When we moved out here to the country greenhouse was on my list of things I wanted to build in the 2 year plan, but then we got pregnant a year sooner than I thought, and my greenhouse money became the baby nursery fund!


    I'm down scaling my greenhouse business at least this year (Baby is due just as greenhouse planting season begins) So I'm just going to grow for my family... Which expanding the gardens to 3500 square feet is still a daunting task in and of itself.

    I'll grow the seedlings indoors until April then I figure I'll build a hoop house out of PVC and thick mil plastic sheeting.

    With a little luck I hope to have enough money available in 2013 that I can convert the 8X14 tack house on the south exposure of the horse barn into a greenhouse. But it needs an insulated floor and roof first.
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    Originally Posted by Nainoa View Post
    At the old place I had a greenhouse... I used to sell Heirloom seedlings for side money when I lived in the city.
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    sets up a date with another man on craigslist...says it was a seed sale that went bad
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    Originally Posted by NRAFL View Post
    ^^The reenactment of when he was being robbed for his seeds was priceless
    Originally Posted by Procta View Post
    sets up a date with another man on craigslist...says it was a seed sale that went bad
    seeds = serious business
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  15. #2655
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    Going through some old pics for a coworker and ran across this. Here's the reason we'll never starve in a SHTF scenario. You cannot wipe these fuggers out, ever, no matter what. Just find a water source and you'll find them hitting it nightly.

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    Originally Posted by Procta View Post
    sets up a date with another man on craigslist...says it was a seed sale that went bad
    LOL!

    The really hillarious thing was that most of the seeds he had stock piled were hybrids... Hybrids don't breed true, they're only good for 1 generation! If you plant seeds from Hybrids the next year only 20% or less will germinate and of those that do 90% will be mutants that will sulk and produce poorly, producing the same poor seeds for the next year.

    Heirloom and Open Pollinator seeds (Same thing really) you can select the best traits and they breed true and/or you can manipulate them into their own new breed.

    I actually have some San Marzano seeds and some Aji Dulce seeds that I've spent 5 years adapting to life in MN... Normally San Marzano don't do well this far north (They're from Southern Italy) and Aji Dulce is a straight up TROPICAL pepper that before I adapted it never was known to grow farther north than Tennessee!

    Each year I've selected the fastest germinating, strongest plants, cold hearty traits and fastest developing... Then year after year I've made the same selections refining them to life up here.

    I know I've had people buy plants from me in the past where they just wanted to grow them so they could harvest the seeds for themselves... Basically capitalizing on my hard work.
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    Originally Posted by HairyScandinavian View Post
    Going through some old pics for a coworker and ran across this. Here's the reason we'll never starve in a SHTF scenario. You cannot wipe these fuggers out, ever, no matter what. Just find a water source and you'll find them hitting it nightly.
    Oh I don't know... I think you could wipe them out if people developed the will to.

    I mean lets say a SHTF situation happens... Within a week or two all the people who were eating grocery store chicken, beef, fish and pork will be in need of a protein source and you can only raid so many local farms...

    And after that you've got every survivor looking for those feral hogs with whatever gun or bow they can get their hands on.

    When you consider how well tuned in those SOB's are to pressure in their environment... Once the first wave goes down the rest of them are going to head for the hills.
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    there are tons of hunters out there

    lots of them need to apply for tags



    despite having no power for refrigeration, whats to stop a few (or lots) of them from harvesting far more than they should

    the good old "lets take more than i need and throw what i dont use away"
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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    there are tons of hunters out there

    lots of them need to apply for tags



    despite having no power for refrigeration, whats to stop a few (or lots) of them from harvesting far more than they should

    the good old "lets take more than i need and throw what i dont use away"
    Most of the hunters I know who hunt for meat and not just sport etc... Use everything just like the Indians and the pioneers did. The people who have that skill set, as opposed to the guys who just shoot (whatever) and mount it (Or whatever) and give the rest to the food bank if it's on their way driving back... Are going to find themselves out competed in a EOTWAWKI situation.

    Really if a person wants to stay put it straight up requires animal husbandry.

    There have been very few civilizations that has existed away from fishing waters that didn't have animal husbandry. And the ones that did manage permanent civilzations without animal husbandry had fishable water and/or large herds of game that passed through.

    Such as the Paleo Indians of Eastern South Dakota (Before the Lakota) lived on the shores of Lake Mitchell and the Bison herds were always near by... Even they raised dogs though and ate the dogs in lean times etc...


    Now I don't know how hard it is to trap a feral pig and raise it in a pen, in theory after a generation or three you could redomesticate it... So that's an option... But I wouldn't put it on top of my list, if I lived in an area with wild pigs.
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    now i dont propose to know your average hunter from state to state


    but ive been in a few states where hunters always talk of "if only i had more tags/i wish i could hunt right now out of season/etc"
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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    now i dont propose to know your average hunter from state to state


    but ive been in a few states where hunters always talk of "if only i had more tags/i wish i could hunt right now out of season/etc"
    In MN there are poachers but mostly in the backwoods.

    I was on a deep nature hike Up North this past summer when I stirred up a poacher (Might have also been making shine)... He saw me coming before I saw him and fire two shots off in the air as a warning, so I doubled back on the trail and ducked down a gully to follow a stream when he came back along the trail looking for me on an ATV. I wasn't sure if he was looking for trouble, but I wasn't going to give him the chance to start any, especially when I knew he had a gun and I only had a knife.

    Around where I live Road Kill is well appreciated. Just recently I saw a doe that had been hit in the head... I went and got a road kill permit really quick... When I got back it was "Borderline" (Warm day) and with a pregnant wife at home I decided against it.

    Sheriff called me an hour later because 3 more people had seen it and applied for a road kill permit. By the next morning it was gone when the county clean up crew came through, so someone took it.

    I think in the rural north there is a deep appreciation and indeed tradition of getting a deer and putting up meat in the freezer, the same way "Did you get your Moose" is to Alaska.

    It's not that there aren't Sport Hunters, but the percentage seems to be less and less the farther north you go.
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    fired off a warning shot

    da hell

    Originally Posted by Nainoa View Post
    It's not that there aren't Sport Hunters, but the percentage seems to be less and less the farther north you go.
    i could have assumed that. but you know they'll be a lot of people out there trying to "provide" for their families after the powers been out for 2 weeks

    and theyll be tons of over harvesting + fights + warning shots like you mentioned
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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    fired off a warning shot

    da hell

    I think the guy was poaching and moon shining...

    There was a piece of property out there... 3+ miles from the main road... Which is a 2 mile long dirt road that you have to drive down another 2 mile long dirt road to get to, from a podunk gas station that is 13 miles from the nearest highway and another 30 miles to the nearest town.

    So I was pretty far out.

    There was a piece of real estate out there... 40 acres surrounding a 40 acre little lake. The land was basically a building sight and then all the land that ringed the lake so unless someone canoed through the swamp connected to it, you'd own the lake. Seemed like a perfect bug out location, where my buddy and I were going to build our off the grid cabin etc... (Land was only $89K)


    At the road access trail there was a real estate sign that said you could take a tour. (Maybe they meant Tour by Appointment)

    Walking down it I saw deer sign and wheeler tracks... Found a fresh hand print in the mud and that's when I started walking on the grassy over top so I wouldn't leave tracks of my own. I'd go 100 yards, stop and listen... Go another 100 yards, stop and listen... Dead quiet.

    Eventually I came to just a sea of Randomly wierded and hand painted No Trespassing signs. It was like 100 yards of them and then there was the real estate sign for the beginning of the property plot.

    So I kind of tentatively ignored them, slowly walked over to the plot of real estate, checked out the lake from the North Corner building sight... And thats when the guy started firing into the air from his camp on the North West Corner... So I vanished into the woods and made my way back.

    From the quick glimpse that I caught before I beat feet out of there and eluded his wheeler, I'm pretty sure he was moon shining and had a deer hanging/skinning.
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    chuckled

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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    chuckled
    Tru Dat!
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    Originally Posted by Nainoa View Post
    Tru Dat!
    sounds like a perfect day and night






    when youre not firing off warning shots that is
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    Originally Posted by Nainoa View Post
    Oh I don't know... I think you could wipe them out if people developed the will to.

    I mean lets say a SHTF situation happens... Within a week or two all the people who were eating grocery store chicken, beef, fish and pork will be in need of a protein source and you can only raid so many local farms...

    And after that you've got every survivor looking for those feral hogs with whatever gun or bow they can get their hands on.

    When you consider how well tuned in those SOB's are to pressure in their environment... Once the first wave goes down the rest of them are going to head for the hills.
    Not a chance, you can't wipe them out they're like cockroaches. The county governments down here send out paid gunners in helicopters to kill them by the 100's daily every day and now they're talking about decommissioning the programs because they've had zero effect. You cannot make a dent in the population no matter what it seems, they are the ultimate survivors. Say hello to your new overlords, the might wild porkers.
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    Originally Posted by HairyScandinavian View Post
    Not a chance, you can't wipe them out they're like cockroaches. The county governments down here send out paid gunners in helicopters to kill them by the 100's daily every day and now they're talking about decommissioning the programs because they've had zero effect. You cannot make a dent in the population no matter what it seems, they are the ultimate survivors. Say hello to your new overlords, the might wild porkers.
    Well here's the thing... Your supposition is:

    In an EOTWAWKI that the population of the Texas (And several other states) could just turn to hunting feral hogs.

    The problem though is that in time the more pressure you put on them the more you are going to wipe out the ones that are close to you and ultimately the population survives BUT it's going to move so far off as to not be feasible to you.

    A year after SHTF, you're not going to have access to a helicopter... You're going to at best have a horse (Not that your HOA will allow you to keep a horse in the back yard in a SHTF And you'll have to ride out 20 miles to where the pigs have rooted down.
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  29. #2669
    Registered User HairyScandinavian's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nainoa View Post
    In MN there are poachers but mostly in the backwoods.

    I was on a deep nature hike Up North this past summer when I stirred up a poacher (Might have also been making shine)... He saw me coming before I saw him and fire two shots off in the air as a warning, so I doubled back on the trail and ducked down a gully to follow a stream when he came back along the trail looking for me on an ATV. I wasn't sure if he was looking for trouble, but I wasn't going to give him the chance to start any, especially when I knew he had a gun and I only had a knife.

    Around where I live Road Kill is well appreciated. Just recently I saw a doe that had been hit in the head... I went and got a road kill permit really quick... When I got back it was "Borderline" (Warm day) and with a pregnant wife at home I decided against it.

    Sheriff called me an hour later because 3 more people had seen it and applied for a road kill permit. By the next morning it was gone when the county clean up crew came through, so someone took it.

    I think in the rural north there is a deep appreciation and indeed tradition of getting a deer and putting up meat in the freezer, the same way "Did you get your Moose" is to Alaska.

    It's not that there aren't Sport Hunters, but the percentage seems to be less and less the farther north you go.
    There's definitely more appreciation for wild game up there, there's also a lot fewer deer from what I can tell. Down here there are tons in town just running around people's neighborhoods, they eat their gardens up and stomp the flower beds LOL. There are neighborhoods around town here that the whole hood could probably last a few weeks at flat out retard level killing of game and throwing big hood BBQ's nightly in a SHTF situation before it actually became more difficult to find game. In the hill country where the smaller deer are it's not uncommon to see several dozen different deer sitting in the stand, and I've personally seen high 20's in South Texas where the deer population is lower and the larger deer are.

    edit: I'm not saying it would be a viable resource in SHTF situation, just explaining why I think people in the Northern states have more appreciation for the resource than they do down here.
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    Originally Posted by Nainoa View Post
    Well here's the thing... Your supposition is:

    In an EOTWAWKI that the population of the Texas (And several other states) could just turn to hunting feral hogs.

    The problem though is that in time the more pressure you put on them the more you are going to wipe out the ones that are close to you and ultimately the population survives BUT it's going to move so far off as to not be feasible to you.

    A year after SHTF, you're not going to have access to a helicopter... You're going to at best have a horse (Not that your HOA will allow you to keep a horse in the back yard in a SHTF And you'll have to ride out 20 miles to where the pigs have rooted down.
    Nah them hogs are stupid, they'd probably move back and forth rather than going further out. I can't argue with your points though and I'd assume it'd get harder to obtain the pigs. Here in SA there's aboot 1.5 mil peeps living in and around town, I'd guess half of them would just flat out starve or worse and I wouldn't be surprised if the other 750k could live off the pig infestation. What you said previously about traps definitely holds true and that's the first thing I'd do, seems like everyone down here have hog traps and some even trap them and fatten them up for a few weeks before killing for a BBQ. I've seen the ones in the pen for a few weeks and they get quite tame pretty fast. Trap a sow or two with about 10 piglets and you're good for a little while, and those piglets will be breeding age I think in around a year. They'll eat anything so that's a huge advantage over other types of livestock. I would probably attempt to extend a very large and secure fence so they could root and feed themselves, but you run the risk of them breaking out if you're not careful and they're also exposed to theft and such.
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