Why SERM with Superdrol

[KORMuscle]

Lately everyone is trying to avoid SERMS and using OTC PCTs. But out of curiosity I was wondering why a SERM is required with Superdrol. According to William Llewyllyn's book, Anabolics 2007, Superdrol does NOT convert to estrogen,and "should not produce any estrogenic side effects" [1][2], such as gyno. Although the SD may shut you down bad by the end of your cycle, your estrogen levels will already be at low levels. Wouldn't a SERM be overdoing it/oversuppressing your estrogen levels?--- too little estrogen levels may produce it's own side effects. ie. inhibit muscle growth, hormonal imbalances, etc.---

If you could back up your arguments with reliable sources, would be great



::EDIT:: Posted below is my source/Anabolics 2007---Superdrol
__________________________________________________ _______
[1] http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v3...superdrol1.jpg
[2] http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v3...superdrol2.jpg

[Xc]

SERMs do not surpress estrogen levels, AI's do. SERM's compete with the estrogen receptor in certain tissue.

[KORMuscle]

Yes, I understand it competes with estrogen for receptors in certain tissues (as an agonist/antagonist)--- so it minimizes estrogen activity. However, it is said that Superdrol does not convert into estrogen, so why use products like Clomid or Tamoxifen Citrate? Opposed to just an ATD or 6oxo

[iForce Dave]

Originally Posted by KORMuscle

Lately everyone is trying to avoid SERMS and using OTC PCTs. But out of curiosity I was wondering why a SERM is required with Superdrol. According to William Llewyllyn's book, Anabolics 2007, Superdrol does NOT convert to estrogen,and "should not produce any estrogenic side effects" [1][2], such as gyno. Although the SD may shut you down bad by the end of your cycle, your estrogen levels will already be at low levels. Wouldn't a SERM be overdoing it/oversuppressing your estrogen levels?--- too little estrogen levels may produce it's own side effects. ie. inhibit muscle growth, hormonal imbalances, etc.---

If you could back up your arguments with reliable sources, would be great



::EDIT:: Posted below is my source/Anabolics 2007---Superdrol
__________________________________________________ _______
[1] http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v3...superdrol1.jpg
[2] http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v3...superdrol2.jpg

IMO the only "serm" worth using on on/after a PH/DS is clomid. and only if you are having libido issues or actually got shutdown, both of which are rare. aside from that they arent needed

[alphaness]

^^^ not even to prevent later onset of gyno?

[ForceLineBacker]

I don't understand completely, however after reading a lot here and the steroid section, I know enough that this has been asked time and time again.

My attempt to explain:

The fact that most modern AAS and DS's do not aromatize only means that you do not need an AI on cycle. However after you stop taking the anabolic you have low test and low estrogen. (This part could be way off) Test can aromatize or turn into estrogen. A SERM blocks the receptors that allows this to happen, keeping test levels up while not allowing estrogen to eradicate any new test that your body is making. Without a SERM your test remaining and any new test could simply be turned into estrogen, and with your body not making enough test right away, estrogen levels run rampant and boom, gyno, bloat etc etc...eventually things will turn back to normal hormone level wise, but it takes longer and you will still possibly have gyno. SERM's also compete with estrogen receptors it in certain tissues (read: breast tissue).


SERM's do have their downsides, and while there is a lot of debate, even in the steroid forum, on what to use and why. I believe that people should keep a strong AI/SERM on hand, but not use it if they are not shut down bad due to bad sides of a strong AI (depression, inhibiting muscle growth, even supressing estrogen much furthur). Of course without blood work you have no idea, which is why I recommend blood work to anyone who runs an anabolic, after cycle and post PCT.

Clomid is great because it is the only SERM that actually gets your testicles functioning again directly...however it can have bad permanent sides such as partial blindness (black spots that may or may not go away). Nolva or tamoxifen is okay, but most now a days like Torem, even though it is more expensive.

I came to the conclusion a while ago, that feeling like **** on cycle, during PCT, and even after just was not worth it to me, and running test as a base is not an option, so I decided from now on to just stay all natural.

[KORMuscle]

Originally Posted by ForceLineBacker

Without a SERM your test remaining and any new test could simply be turned into estrogen, and with your body not making enough test right away, estrogen levels run rampant and boom, gyno, bloat etc etc...eventually things will turn back to normal hormone level wise, but it takes longer and you will still possibly have gyno. SERM's also compete with estrogen receptors it in certain tissues (read: breast tissue).

Couldn't an AI + test booster just be used instead then?

[KORMuscle]

Bmp

[adoniscomplex]

superdrol can with out a doubt cause gyno
there is like 100 threads on here with people talking about how they got gyno after superdrol

[Dave P]

Originally Posted by dalvare1

IMO the only "serm" worth using on on/after a PH/DS is clomid. and only if you are having libido issues or actually got shutdown, both of which are rare. aside from that they arent needed

Not a fan of Torem?

[ForceLineBacker]

Originally Posted by KORMuscle

Couldn't an AI + test booster just be used instead then?

Yes in theory it sounds good, but with strong compounds like SD, people reported gyno with an OTC PCT, so it anecdotal evidence would show that you need a strong AI, hence why you hear "Nolva just to be safe"

[aosch]

After using a non-armoatasing DS, if you do experience HPTA shutdown you will have low estrogen and testosterone. The point of using a SERM is to stimulate LH production and to prevent estrogenic sides.

After having low test/low estrogen, your body may increase LH production, causing a surge of testosterone, this testosterone will get aromatised into estrogen. SERMS have a high affinity to the ER(estrogen receptor) then estrogen does. This is what prevents the estrogenic side effects.

The point of a AI in a PCT without the use of a SERM is it keep estrogen levels low, by binding to aromatase. This will allow testosterone to rise. The estradiol feedback loop will also keep LH production higher stimulated the testes to produce more testosterone. However I see concern with keeping estrogen levels low for a prolonged period.

I hope I answered everything. If anyone sees any flaws in my post, please point them out.

[aosch]

Originally Posted by ForceLineBacker

Yes in theory it sounds good, but with strong compounds like SD, people reported gyno with an OTC PCT, so it anecdotal evidence would show that you need a strong AI, hence why you hear "Nolva just to be safe"

Delayed gyno seemed to be the case of impoper use of an AI. The use of an AI controlling estrogen, keeping it at low levels, especially coming off a cycle that once HPTA was shut down your estrogen levels will also drop significantly. Once use of an AI is discontinued estrogen is allowed to surge up trigging the estrogen related side effects.

So think of it like this. SD=non-aromatiasing steroid. HPTA gets shut down, you now have low estrogen. PCT starts. You use an AI, keeping estrogen and a controlled low level. A use of a SERM sometimes was used, it did not matter to much at this point since it was also used with an AI and the use of the SERM was discontinued at the sametime as the AI or prior to it. Once AI and SERM were discontinued and were metabolized. Estrogen then spiked.

[rdouble79]

wouldn't it make sense to run the serm&test booster for say 4wks and then start an Ai why both at the beginning of pct like i see so often?

[b5s402]

thats how it is for the all otc pct at otcpct.com
natural possible serm + test booster= post cycle support
then 6oxo the ai..

[Illadelphia]

Originally Posted by KORMuscle

Couldn't an AI + test booster just be used instead then?

Take them and then report back to us

[KORMuscle]

Originally Posted by Illadelphia

Take them and then report back to us

ok when did I ever state I was planning on even taking SD? I was asking a scientific question and seeing if anyone had sources. If you dont have anything useful to contribute, don't post stupid **** statements like that

[lednasmr]

Originally Posted by adoniscomplex

superdrol can with out a doubt cause gyno
there is like 100 threads on here with people talking about how they got gyno after superdrol

yup.
i have to careful while on aswell, i can feel my nipples getting sore within 2 or 3 days

[chasinSKURT]

Originally Posted by lednasmr

yup.
i have to careful while on aswell, i can feel my nipples getting sore within 2 or 3 days

This is common with any hormonal product. As your hormones shift nipples get sensitive, it's happened to me, and it's happened to plenty of others.

It doesn't mean your getting gyno.

[tryingtogetjack]

i find torem to be superior for pct with my past experiences..

[bullsh-tartist]

I also use a SERM only if needed (it has never been), but I always keep one on hand. I don't think that you'll need it with a SD cycle. I'm running one this winter with no SERM unless the boobs jump out.

[Musclefever]

thats why it is important to ramp down an ai to avoid delayed gyno

[meowmixman666]

Originally Posted by KORMuscle

Lately everyone is trying to avoid SERMS and using OTC PCTs. But out of curiosity I was wondering why a SERM is required with Superdrol. According to William Llewyllyn's book, Anabolics 2007, Superdrol does NOT convert to estrogen,and "should not produce any estrogenic side effects" [1][2], such as gyno. Although the SD may shut you down bad by the end of your cycle, your estrogen levels will already be at low levels. Wouldn't a SERM be overdoing it/oversuppressing your estrogen levels?--- too little estrogen levels may produce it's own side effects. ie. inhibit muscle growth, hormonal imbalances, etc.---

If you could back up your arguments with reliable sources, would be great



::EDIT:: Posted below is my source/Anabolics 2007---Superdrol
__________________________________________________ _______
[1] http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v3...superdrol1.jpg
[2] http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v3...superdrol2.jpg

On cycle and immediatly post cycle when your estrogen levels are suppressed, one of the ways your body is going to respond is by upregulating the receptors just like it does with any other hormone. So it seems possible that once your estrogen levels are close to normal again the receptors might not have completely downregulated back to normal again which would cause a higher estrogen expression than previously even with a slightly lower amount of the hormone. I can't imagine people would be so sensitive to estrogen that it would cause tits but I guess it would depend on the amount of upregulation, how fast your estrogen returned, your genetic predisposition for receptor sensitivty, how long the cycle was, etc... Seems silly to immediatly use it post cycle though considering it would cause even more upregulation so you would have to come down off it real slow.