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  1. #1
    Registered User ultragymrat's Avatar
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    Dorian gave up on squats, why can't I ?

    I read recently that Dorian decided that squats just weren't ideal for his frame (somewhat shorter legs? perhaps my problem ? ?) so he switched em for presses...

    I have always really loathed squats, I mean I do them, but I always feel like I am being suffocated and crushed and strangled all at the same time (does everyone feel like this?). They are just hateful to me.
    Do I just need to suck it up and enter hell on leg day or can I sub leg presses forever and be fine AND happy ( I don't mind presses and an MUCH stronger on them)

    ?
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    Registered User statisticool's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ultragymrat View Post
    Do I just need to suck it up and enter hell on leg day or can I sub leg presses forever and be fine AND happy ( I don't mind presses and an MUCH stronger on them)?
    Do whatever exercises work best for your body and circumstances. Almost all of them are tried and true.

    And don't fall for the "no squat = pu**y!" macho nonsense.
    http://www.statisticool.com/weightedexercise.htm
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    Registered User Pacific-Baller's Avatar
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    I would never advise someone not to do squats, but you could take a break from them and do leg press for a while if you like..
    But if you really loath them and they don't feel good then I'd say you need to work on your form. And if you say your leg press is a lot stronger than your squat then maybe you should work on your posterior chain.

    Good luck
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    Registered User mait128's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by statisticool View Post
    Do whatever exercises work best for your body and circumstances. Almost all of them are tried and true.

    And don't fall for the "no squat = pu**y!" macho nonsense.
    Wow, I never thought I'd see a statement like this on this board! Good for you and I mean that in a good way. I agree I don't think squats are the end all be all. In fact I personally don't they are not that much of an effective exercise for the majority of people. To much room for incorrect form, and in the quest for heavier poundages most people sacrifice form for simply moving weight.

    Nothing wrong with presses. Remember, muscles only know tension. Doesn't matter if it comes from a barbell squat, machine leg press, or bags of sand you're holding onto while squatting down. Forget the brotelligence mentaliy of free weigths only.
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  5. #5
    I can do this all day Farley1324's Avatar
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    Few things are graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy. -Mark Rippetoe



    JUST SQUAT.

    Yes, they suck. Just suck it up. A leg press will NEVER do for you what squats will. NEVER.
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    Registered User mait128's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    Few things are graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy. -Mark Rippetoe



    JUST SQUAT.

    Yes, they suck. Just suck it up. A leg press will NEVER do for you what squats will. NEVER.
    Explain why though? Why does one have to squat. Not trying to be a dick, but explain the mentality of why one must squat, so that we can learn through asking questions. What's the benefit over leg press or other quad dominant exercises? A leg press will develop the quads just as well as a squat and I dare say better because one isn't trying to focus on balance and maitaining proper back positioning. While when you leg press, all of the tension is placed primarily on the quads.

    Rippetoe's quote is simply the epitome of brotelligence and the old coach mentality.
    Last edited by mait128; 06-24-2008 at 07:38 PM.
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  7. #7
    I can do this all day Farley1324's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post
    Explain why though? Why does one have to squat. Not trying to be a dick, but explain the mentality of why one much squat, so that we can learn through asking questions. What's the benefit over leg press or other quad dominant exercises?

    You answered your own question.

    A proper, full squat to depth works a HELL of a lot more than the quads. That's the short of it. Quite frankly the importance of squats is so universally known and accepted that I don't think I need to type it all out right here/now (and I don't have time, lol, or I would). I'm sure somebody else will elaborate.



    I can give you my generic links, though.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=972440

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/irontamer5.htm

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=772206

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=107853341

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843

    Read them.

    Seriously informative.







    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post
    Rippetoe's quote is simply brotelligence and the old coach mentality personified to the extreme.

    That is absoultley positively 100% wrong. Negged. Edit: Damnit, I need a recharge. No neg, for now. Since I never heard that term before I googled it. Urban Dictionary says:

    Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Brotelligence 23 up, 4 down

    The standard "knowledge" of the common forum bodybuilder. Usually connotating the idiocy and anti-science dogma of bodybuilders who trust their "good bro".
    For those who might wonder.
    Last edited by Farley1324; 06-24-2008 at 07:37 PM.
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  8. #8
    Registered User mait128's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    You answered your own question.

    A proper, full squat to depth works a HELL of a lot more than the quads. That's the short of it. Quite frankly the importance of squats is so universally known and accepted that I don't think I need to type it all out right here/now (and I don't have time, lol, or I would). I'm sure somebody else will elaborate.



    I can give you my generic links, though.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=972440

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/irontamer5.htm

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=772206

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=107853341

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843

    Read them.

    Seriously informative.










    That is absoultley positively 100% wrong. Negged. Edit: Damnit, I need a recharge. No neg, for now. Since I never heard that term before I googled it. Urban Dictionary says:



    For those who might wonder.

    First quote me peer reviewed literature, not BB.com articles. If you want to play this game I will, and I'll win. The OP is interested in developing quads. Not stabilizers or his back, there are other more effective exercise for those muscle groups. For placing 100% tension on the quads squats are not it.

    Show me the science behind Rippetoe's statement. What squats may release more growth or test. BS, enhanced athletes take huge dose to see any noticable gain in LBM. What's the extra 1mg per week you get from doing squats going to do? Not much.
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    Registered User mait128's Avatar
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    Again, show me where Rippetoe backs his statement up, Edit: not to mention his statement is entirely subjective and 100% unscientific which I believe fits the definition you posted,

    Few things are graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy. -Mark Rippetoe

    How is that conclusive, scientific and proveable it's not-therefore brotelligence. I'm not saying he's not a great strength coach, He is. Do squats work? Yes, but other exercises are just as effective at developing the quads.
    Last edited by mait128; 06-24-2008 at 07:58 PM.
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    Registered User CaptainGorgeous's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    Few things are graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy. -Mark Rippetoe
    From a strength-training perspective, this is more or less correct, especially if you are trying to do the type of programming that Rippetoe recommends.

    But if OP is advanced and focusing primarily on physique, then squats aren't really necessary.

    I don't think mait128 deserves a neg for disagreeing with the Rippetoe quote, which is not really an accurate generalization.
    Last edited by CaptainGorgeous; 06-24-2008 at 07:51 PM.
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    Registered User mait128's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CaptainGorgeous View Post
    From a strength-training perspective, this is more or less correct, especially if you are trying to do the type of programming that Rippetoe recommends.

    But if OP is advanced and focusing primarily on physique, then squats aren't really necessary.

    I don't think OP deserves a neg for disagreeing with the Rippetoe quote, which is not really an accurate generalization.
    Sorry bro, that was me that disagreed with the quote. And I agree with you, from a strength training stand point squats are great. But from a BB standpoint, no. Other exercises can be just as effective if not more, at building the quads.
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    Registered User CaptainGorgeous's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post
    Sorry bro, that was me that disagreed with the quote. And I agree with you, from a strength training stand point squats are great. But from a BB standpoint, no. Other exercises can be just as effective if not more, at building the quads.
    my bad...fixed
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    Registered User Dan0_123's Avatar
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    Dorian did barbell squats for about 6 years before he switched over to doing squats on the smith machine. He still did them, but he felt the smith focused more on his quads.

    Squats work your hams and glutes like crazy and there are really no other exercises that can replicate that. You can work your quads on the leg ext. but I don't think they overall benefit will be the same as a heavy deep squat.

    Try doing a few sets of leg extension prior do doing squats. It'll fatigue the quads and enable you to use less weight to achieve the same results.
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    I can do this all day Farley1324's Avatar
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    Let's start with your premise:

    Originally Posted by CaptainGorgeous View Post
    But if OP is advanced and focusing primarily on physique, then squats aren't really necessary.



    Where does it say that, exactly??

    Originally Posted by ultragymrat View Post
    I read recently that Dorian decided that squats just weren't ideal for his frame (somewhat shorter legs? perhaps my problem ? ?) so he switched em for presses...

    I have always really loathed squats, I mean I do them, but I always feel like I am being suffocated and crushed and strangled all at the same time (does everyone feel like this?). They are just hateful to me.
    Do I just need to suck it up and enter hell on leg day or can I sub leg presses forever and be fine AND happy ( I don't mind presses and an MUCH stronger on them)

    ?

    Perhaps I am missing something.


    I also don't see "peer reviewed literature" that says leg presses are better thans quats.

    And I like how you dismiss the knowledge and experience of every single person who posts here on bb.com so easily.
    Last edited by Farley1324; 06-24-2008 at 08:02 PM.
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    Registered User mait128's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    Let's start with your premise:
    I also don't see "peer reviewed literature" that says leg presses are better thans quats.

    And I like how you dismiss the knowledge and experience of every single person who posts here on bb.com so easily.
    Well, I never said I was dismissing the knowledge and experience of every single person on the board. What I'm simply saying is that unless one has PERFECT form on the squats, squats are not always the best nor most effective exercise. This comes from my experience. And quite frankly I've been lifting longer than most of the people on the board have been alive.
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    Registered User ultragymrat's Avatar
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    Just so we are clear here, I squat all the time and have for many years, I just hate it and don't want to waste time on it when I could be focusing my time on a lift I am actually good at. I am trying to get stronger for now and bigger later. I have been lifting for over ten years, but I need to increase my leg strength vs. endurance after so much time spend with running.
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    Where does it say that, exactly??
    I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that someone alluding to a bodybuilder is more interested in bodybuilding than strength training. It might be incorrect but assuming the OP knows the difference between bodybuilding and strength training gives him the benefit of the doubt that he's reasonably well-informed.

    I'll chime in why my two cents: First, there certainly is a difference between the exercise selection one employs for strength versus physique training so while the squat is probably correctly viewed as foundational for strength there might be better options of bodybuilders looking to make fine adjustments.

    However, if the stats of the OP are correct and he is 6'0" at 180 lbs, there's a good chance that what is appropriate for Yates is not appropriate for him. I don't know about bodybuilding and I didn't see this article, but if Yates simply said that leg press is better for him now than squatting that's a different ball game from him saying that leg press is better for all people at all stages.

    Finally, again returning to the strength versus bodybuilding dichotomy, I think we all agree that strength allows for hypertrophy. While the OP might not need to develop posterior chain strength in the same way that an athlete or an Olympic lifter would, there's a good chance that in his lifting he would benefit from that additional strength. Very few lifts provide such a great strength benefit and so it's hard to say that squats have no place in a program.
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    Registered User mait128's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    Let's start with your premise:
    I also don't see "peer reviewed literature" that says leg presses are better thans quats.
    Touche, you don't. But I also never said they were better. I said they can be just as effective if not more given the context of one's training.
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  19. #19
    I can do this all day Farley1324's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ultragymrat View Post
    Just so we are clear here, I squat all the time and have for many years, I just hate it and don't want to waste time on it when I could be focusing my time on a lift I am actually good at. I am trying to get stronger for now and bigger later. I have been lifting for over ten years, but I need to increase my leg strength vs. endurance after so much time spend with running.
    So there we have it, the OP is trying to get stronger. Yet you say:


    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post
    A leg press will develop the quads just as well as a squat

    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post
    from a strength training stand point squats are great.

    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post
    The OP is interested in developing quads.

    hmmm
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    I can do this all day Farley1324's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post
    Touche, you don't. But I also never said they were better. I said they can be just as effective if not more given the context of one's training.
    I don't see any "peer reviewed literature" that says leg press is even as good as squats.


    Though people like Bill Starr and Mike Lambert have nothing but good things to say about Mark Rippetoe and his book(s). Does Bill Starr count as a peer?
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    And you're telling me that presses won't develop quads as well as squats? I say BS, muscles know tension only. If the focus of the tension is focused primarily the quads then they will develop just as well as if squats had been used.

    Squating takes some of the tension away from the quads and focuses it on the posterior chain as well the the hams, and glutes more.

    Ok so the OP said is interested in strength based training. You're telling me he won't get stronger doing leg presses. He can still gain the benifits your using from performing deads, if he decided to use presses over squats.
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    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post

    Ok so the OP said is interested in strength based training.
    Hence he should squat and not do leg presses.

    It really is a good idea to find out WHAT a poster is looking to do before you give advice. Really.


    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post
    You're telling me he won't get stronger doing leg presses.
    No, I am not.

    I am calling this statement out. Please show where I said leg presses will not make you stronger.

    Squats are simply better.


    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post
    He can still gain the benifits your using from performing deads, if he decided to use presses over squats.
    No. Deadlift + leg press is still inferior to squat + deadlift.
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    Hence he should squat and not do leg presses.

    It really is a good idea to find out WHAT a poster is looking to do before you give advice. Really.




    No, I am not.

    I am calling this statement out. Please show where I said leg presses will not make you stronger.

    Squats are simply better.




    No. Deadlift + leg press is still inferior to squat + deadlift.
    The OP asked if he could sub presses for squats, The answer is yes. Will he get stronger? Yes.

    In the statement you're saying your calling out, I meant to put a question mark after the sentence not a period. Meaning to ask a rhetorical question, wasn't saying you made the statement, rather just asking if you thought that one couldn't get stronger from presses.

    Again, tell me exactly how squats are superior to presses? You're the one saying they are so tell me why. I simply said presses can be substitute for squats with effective results.
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    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post
    Again, tell me exactly how squats are superior to presses?
    The fact is that, for one thing, excercises which utilize more muscle mass...and excercise in which you fully support and control the weight yourself...are superior for strength.

    Quite frankly I'm happy with falling back on saying that Bill Starr and Mark Rippetoe, among many others, state that squats are better. I am also secure int he knowledge that 99% of bb.com members who are not complete noobs know the same thing.


    If you really don't believe squats to be a superior strength excercise to leg presses, well, have fun with your leg presses.
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    I've moved over to the leg press for now, squats were great but first i hurt my hip, then i hurt my knee (in the space of two months). I'd had my form checked by several PT's and both times and they said it was good, i can only assume a small twitch, going to heavy (5x5 routine) or my larger than normal legs (6'4 so long legs) have played a part in it.

    Either way, it isn't worth the risk in my mind. I'll give it another month then try again but modify it to 8-10 reps and see how things go :/
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    I can do this all day Farley1324's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Conius View Post
    I've moved over to the leg press for now, squats were great but first i hurt my hip, then i hurt my knee (in the space of two months). I'd had my form checked by several PT's and both times and they said it was good, i can only assume a small twitch, going to heavy (5x5 routine) or my larger than normal legs (6'4 so long legs) have played a part in it.

    Either way, it isn't worth the risk in my mind. I'll give it another month then try again but modify it to 8-10 reps and see how things go :/
    What personal trainers?

    Most of them are dumbasses that wouldn't know a proper squat if they saw it. All of the ones I've seen (and 99% of the ones I read about) train people to do 1/4 squats with puss pads on a Smith Machine. (which = FAIL)

    Can you get a video and post it up here?
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    If one is trying to focus tension on the quads, then by performing presses one removes the inherent stabiliy issue that comes along with squats. This instability limits the amount of weight that may be used, due to having to stabilize one's self in the lift.

    So bottom line on this is, are squat effective? Yes, with perfect form. Is there a strong chance that form will deteriorate will excessive poundage. Yes. Is this the most effective exercise for overall mass. Subjective, but I say no. Deads are more effective IMO, as are clean and press.
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    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post
    If one is trying to focus tension on the quads,

    That's a pretty damn big if.

    Tell me: Why is "tension" focused on the muscle all that matters? You have stated that multiple times...what does it accomplish, and why?
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    The fact is that, for one thing, excercises which utilize more muscle mass...and excercise in which you fully support and control the weight yourself...are superior for strength.

    Quite frankly I'm happy with falling back on saying that Bill Starr and Mark Rippetoe, among many others, state that squats are better. I am also secure int he knowledge that 99% of bb.com members who are not complete noobs know the same thing.


    If you really don't believe squats to be a superior strength excercise to leg presses, well, have fun with your leg presses.
    Nothing wrong with this either.
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    I can do this all day Farley1324's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mait128 View Post

    So bottom line on this is, are squat effective? Yes, with perfect form. Is there a strong chance that form will deteriorate will excessive poundage. Yes. Is this the most effective exercise for overall mass. Subjective, but I say no. Deads are more effective IMO, as are clean and press.
    And who are you, exactly, and why should we listen to you and not Mark Rippetoe, All Pro, britlifter, Bill Starr, etc etc ad nauseum?
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