Protein and Carbs alone = BIG Insulin Spike

[TPower81]

OP, I've read the same thing concerning PWO shakes...mixing Whey protein (quick acting) with Oatmeal in a shake PWO caused a huge insulin spike. This was good though because you're taking it PWO...

I don't know much about nutrition but when I recently cut, I followed the scivation cut diet, aka "Game Over". For 12 weeks I basically ate green beans, lean meat and almonds at every meal, 6 times a day. Started at 2500 calories, ended in the 2000 range. Carbs never went over 100/day, protein usually in 250-300g range. I felt fine, lost fat, increased weight lifted in gym. Towards the end of my cut I started to feel fatigued towards the end of my sets while working out but I was doing high volume at the time (5x6-8, 3 exercises) so I wasn't too concerned.

Since then I've raised my calories and carb intake to 200/day. I notice a lot more bloat, some gas, and a little more hunger even though I'm eating more.

Like its been said though, try something that has worked for someone else. If it doesn't end up working for you, try something else.

[druluv]

Well I can tell you this, if calorie in/ out is your game, one fact no can dispute is that a reduction in carbohydrates makes it easy to reduce calories. I have doing keto for 1.5 years, and lost a net of 73lbs, while reducing my waist by 1foot; in addition, I'm about 10lbs from a six pack and no lose skin. My fat loss was done with no cardio, and 20-30min of weight lifting 3-4 days a week. It was only for the last 20lbs I started with low calorie dieting, the initial weight loss was any where between 3000k -4000k. I can tell you that low carb makes it possible to do low calorie dieting, and you can go as low as you want to go without any hunger. When I'm not training, I can reduce my calories to 1000k with no cravings. When I try to replicate a low calorie day, on my carb up day its almost impossible. Whether its link to insulin or because rib eye takes longer to digest, I really don't care. Only a fat person who reduced their can understand the beauty of low carb. Losing weight without cardio or over intense weight training. I am my own test subject. If you are overweight out there and reading this, reduce your carbs first then play with calories, it will work. Using a naturally diesel person program will not work for many because you don't share their same sugar metabolism. Most of the fattys here can play around with Alan and other mainstream peddlers, but I guarantee you, it you turn the food pyramid upside down you will lose weight.

[Phosphate bond]

Well I can tell you this, if calorie in/ out is your game, one fact no can dispute is that a reduction in carbohydrates makes it easy to reduce calories. I have doing keto for 1.5 years, and lost a net of 73lbs, while reducing my waist by 1foot; in addition, I'm about 10lbs from a six pack and no lose skin. My fat loss was done with no cardio, and 20-30min of weight lifting 3-4 days a week. It was only for the last 20lbs I started with low calorie dieting, the initial weight loss was any where between 3000k -4000k. I can tell you that low carb makes it possible to do low calorie dieting, and you can go as low as you want to go without any hunger. When I'm not training, I can reduce my calories to 1000k with no cravings. When I try to replicate a low calorie day, on my carb up day its almost impossible. Whether its link to insulin or because rib eye takes longer to digest, I really don't care. Only a fat person who reduced their can understand the beauty of low carb. Losing weight without cardio or over intense weight training. I am my own test subject. If you are overweight out there and reading this, reduce your carbs first then play with calories, it will work. Using a naturally diesel person program will not work for many because you don't share their same sugar metabolism. Most of the fattys here can play around with Alan and other mainstream peddlers, but I guarantee you, it you turn the food pyramid upside down you will lose weight.

It does make sense to me that if you go really low calories at least getting essential fats and protein is going to be easier with low carb.

1000 calories a day is not a lot and at this level just getting adequate EFAS may be tough even if calories are 50% from fat (that is only 55 grams of fat total)

[alan aragon]

Well I can tell you this, if calorie in/ out is your game, one fact no can dispute is that a reduction in carbohydrates makes it easy to reduce calories. I have doing keto for 1.5 years, and lost a net of 73lbs, while reducing my waist by 1foot; in addition, I'm about 10lbs from a six pack and no lose skin. My fat loss was done with no cardio, and 20-30min of weight lifting 3-4 days a week. It was only for the last 20lbs I started with low calorie dieting, the initial weight loss was any where between 3000k -4000k. I can tell you that low carb makes it possible to do low calorie dieting, and you can go as low as you want to go without any hunger. When I'm not training, I can reduce my calories to 1000k with no cravings. When I try to replicate a low calorie day, on my carb up day its almost impossible. Whether its link to insulin or because rib eye takes longer to digest, I really don't care. Only a fat person who reduced their can understand the beauty of low carb. Losing weight without cardio or over intense weight training. I am my own test subject. If you are overweight out there and reading this, reduce your carbs first then play with calories, it will work. Using a naturally diesel person program will not work for many because you don't share their same sugar metabolism. Most of the fattys here can play around with Alan and other mainstream peddlers, but I guarantee you, it you turn the food pyramid upside down you will lose weight.

Nice personal testimonial, but in case you couldn't tell this was not a personal story sharing session -- it was an (attempted) scientific discussion.

As for referring to me as a "mainstream peddler" you definitely are speaking out of your ass, since you have not clue what my methods or philosophies are all about. I'll give you the biggest clue: they are not a singular nor inflexible set of rules. Furthermore, I get people in shape for a living, which gives me a little bit larger data set than you when it comes to citing observational case reports. What do you do for a living?

[druluv]

Nice personal testimonial, but in case you couldn't tell this was not a personal story sharing session -- it was an (attempted) scientific discussion.

As for referring to me as a "mainstream peddler" you definitely are speaking out of your ass, since you have not clue what my methods or philosophies are all about. I'll give you the biggest clue: they are not a singular nor inflexible set of rules. Furthermore, I get people in shape for a living, which gives me a little bit larger data set than you when it comes to citing observational case reports. What do you do for a living?

I didn't mean to be demeaning with my mainstream comment. If you are a personal trainer you have to follow the current health trends. What worries me with you is that you don't have full understanding of sugar and fat metabolism. Any educated health professional who doesn't understand that fat cells pulls energy into into the cells instead of being deposited in the fat cell in a caloric surplus is just a regular trainer too me. If you don't understand that fat cells are very active and in constant flux through out the day, then I'm just wasting my time with you. Just like after a work out, muscle cells become more insulin sensitive, fat cells for some are very insulin sensitive and will pull nutrients out of the bloodstream even in a hypercaloric situation. You can continuing kicking wrong text book advice all you want. The sad case is the U.S is the most health conscious nation in the world, but is the most obese at the same time. As sugar consumption rise so does calories, so may be there something about carbohydrates that make us more hungry and make us eat more than needed.

Start studying up on fat metabolism, most of this information is not in our current text book. While at it study more on hunger and insulin.

Funny you should ask about my profession, Just yesterday, the manager at my gym offered me a position as a personal trainer and this was unsolicited. So I may have to go more stream with my ideas like you, I understand the game too. If you want to make name for yourself, just say low calories with lots of exercise, sprinkle in a couple of the grain companies studies of how sugar causes no issues with fatties, and they love you. But its all good!.

[Elliptical Envy]

You are wrong in that protein spikes up insulin. Protein and fats, have little insulin response, very little and fat has almost non insulin response.

Here is a formula I learned about insulin production by foods

A meal of only Protein foods = very little insulin response

A meal with High protein + Low carb = little insulin response

A meal of only Fats = no insulin response

A meal of High carb + little protein= high insulin


unsoberx

Where did you "learn" this from?

[Sick96stang]

Point me to where in that quote I mention the necessity of the "insulin spike" you mentioned. Go ahead, make my day...

And by the way, that quote of mine is several years old, there's an updated version of the guidelines in the sticky -- and an even more updated version in the AARR. Learning & evolving your perspective based on current data (rather than sticking dogmatically to traditional beliefs) is something you should look into if you're a true student of this stuff.

Touche my friend you do not mention spiking anywhere just maintaing elevated levels.

Your updated guidelines in the sticky as far as I can see makes no mention of any difference as far as it comes to insulin levels postworkout. I'm all for new info.

[Phosphate bond]

With respect to very low or low calorie diets.....keep in mind those calories being used from adipose are basically "empty calories".

Therefore whatever diet gives you the most nutrients from the least calories is probably going to work the best. In someone active using muscle this would be even more so.

[alan aragon]

What worries me with you is that you don't have full understanding of sugar and fat metabolism. Any educated health professional who doesn't understand that fat cells pulls energy into into the cells instead of being deposited in the fat cell in a caloric surplus is just a regular trainer too me.

You didn't answer my question. Instead you spewed out a volley of completely incoherent nonsense (see the above quote), but hey, you're probably a nice guy regardless.

[Elliptical Envy]

You didn't answer my question. Instead you spewed out a volley of completely incoherent nonsense (see the above quote), but hey, you're probably a nice guy regardless.

LMAO..........Alan still the crusader of the nutrition forum.

[t-bone2]

What worries me with you is that you don't have full understanding of sugar and fat metabolism.

Dude, you 'oughta just say that Tiger Woods holds his putter all wrong!

100 posts and Alan is the only one who's referenced a published study from a scientific journal. If you want to argue from a scientific perspective, bring scientific data. Otherwise, assume that you're going to be called out for perpetuating Bro Science theoretical wanking. And from the looks of this thread, rightly so!

[monkeydan]

Glycaemic index effects on fuel partitioning in humans.
D?az EO, Galgani JE, Aguirre CA.

Laboratory of Energy Metabolism and Stable Isotopes, Institute of Nutrition and Food Technology (INTA), University of Chile, Ave. El Libano 5524, Macul, Santiago, Chile. ediaz@inta.cl

The purpose of this review was to examine the role of glycaemic index in fuel partitioning and body composition with emphasis on fat oxidation/storage in humans. This relationship is based on the hypothesis postulating that a higher serum glucose and insulin response induced by high-glycaemic carbohydrates promotes lower fat oxidation and higher fat storage in comparison with low-glycaemic carbohydrates. Thus, high-glycaemic index meals could contribute to the maintenance of excess weight in obese individuals and/or predispose obesity-prone subjects to weight gain. Several studies comparing the effects of meals with contrasting glycaemic carbohydrates for hours, days or weeks have failed to demonstrate any differential effect on fuel partitioning when either substrate oxidation or body composition measurements were performed. Apparently, the glycaemic index-induced serum insulin differences are not sufficient in magnitude and/or duration to modify fuel oxidation.

Seeing as the insulin index (II) is very closely correlated to the glycaemic index (GI) - although there are certain foods which rate highly on the II but are surprisingly low GI - wouldn't you expect to see a shift to fat storage with an 'insulin spike'?

[alan aragon]

Here's a meta-analysis examining insulin response & appetite, and they found the exact opposite of what druluv keeps dreaming about:

Br J Nutr. 2007 Jul;98(1):17-25. Epub 2007 May 25.

Associations between postprandial insulin and blood glucose responses, appetite sensations and energy intake in normal weight and overweight individuals: a meta-analysis of test meal studies.

Flint A, Gregersen NT, Gluud LL, M?ller BK, Raben A, Tetens I, Verdich C, Astrup A.

It is unclear whether postprandial blood glucose or insulin exerts a regulatory function in short-term appetite regulation in humans. The aim of this study was to investigate, by use of meta-analysis, the role of blood glucose and insulin in short-term appetite sensation and energy intake (EI) in normal weight and overweight participants. Data from seven test meal studies were used, including 136 healthy participants (ALL) (92 normal weight (NW) and 44 overweight or obese (OW)). All meals were served as breakfasts after an overnight fast, and appetite sensations and blood samples were obtained frequently in the postprandial period. Finally, an ad libitum lunch was served. Data were analysed by fixed effects study level (SL) meta-regression analysis and individual participant data (IPD) regression analysis, using STATA software. In SL analysis, postprandial insulin response was associated with decreased hunger in ALL, NW and OW (P < 0.019), and with increased satiety in NW (P = 0.004) and lower subsequent EI in OW (P = 0.022). Multivariate IPD analysis showed similar associations, but only in NW for hunger, satiety and EI (P < 0.028), and in ALL for EI (P = 0.016). The only association involving blood glucose was the multivariate IPD analysis showing an inverse association between blood glucose and EI in ALL (P = 0.032). Our results suggest that insulin, but not glucose, is associated with short-term appetite regulation in healthy participants, but the relationship is disrupted in the overweight and obese. We conclude that the postprandial insulin response may be an important satiety signal, and that central nervous system insulin resistance in overweight might explain the blunted effect on appetite.

[PowerManDL]

Alan you clearly do not understand carb and fat metabolism.

Insulin makes you fat. It is this simple, and if you do not understand this I don't know how we can keep having this conversation.

I will present no data to support my claim. I will simply state that you are wrong, and re-state once again that I am correct and you are wrong.

Now I will smugly assert that I shall not listen to you, and state again th at the reason is because you do not understand fat metabolism.

With my argument made, I will now go bask in the glow of being correct, and having proven you wrong while not presenting any data.

Also, my gym manager offered me a job as a trainer today, further reinforcing how I am correct and you do not understand fat metabolism.

Did I mention that insulin makes you fat? It totally does.

[monkeydan]

Alan you clearly do not understand carb and fat metabolism.

Insulin makes you fat. It is this simple, and if you do not understand this I don't know how we can keep having this conversation.

I will present no data to support my claim. I will simply state that you are wrong, and re-state once again that I am correct and you are wrong.

Now I will smugly assert that I shall not listen to you, and state again th at the reason is because you do not understand fat metabolism.

With my argument made, I will now go bask in the glow of being correct, and having proven you wrong while not presenting any data.

Also, my gym manager offered me a job as a trainer today, further reinforcing how I am correct and you do not understand fat metabolism.

Did I mention that insulin makes you fat? It totally does.

pos reps bro!!!1

[matthor]

Alan you clearly do not understand carb and fat metabolism.

Insulin makes you fat. It is this simple, and if you do not understand this I don't know how we can keep having this conversation.

I will present no data to support my claim. I will simply state that you are wrong, and re-state once again that I am correct and you are wrong.

Now I will smugly assert that I shall not listen to you, and state again th at the reason is because you do not understand fat metabolism.

With my argument made, I will now go bask in the glow of being correct, and having proven you wrong while not presenting any data.

Also, my gym manager offered me a job as a trainer today, further reinforcing how I am correct and you do not understand fat metabolism.

Did I mention that insulin makes you fat? It totally does.

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter sir

[ChrisTurk]

Coming from a nutrition background myself I get stressed out reading this forum. Alan I could learn a lot from you, mainly how to deal with all the bro science that gets put out there.

When people talk nutrition at the gym I've started to walk the other way which is unfortunate. Everyone is looking for the silver bullet, unfortunately it doesn't exist. I think it could help a lot of people to read pubmed and medline a bit more often rather than the bodybuilding.com front page or nutrition forums.

[Adam444]

Who says insulin is not important? LOL...


If I eat:

Protein/Fat
Protein/Fat
Protein/Fat
Fat/Protein - Switch it up a little.
Carbs for my Pre-Bed.



If you think that above meal plan is the same as breaking your carbs for breakfast/workout, you should stop giving advice. That's stupid. Stop with this "Calories/macronutrients total out at the end of the day, rest doesn't matter" bull****. That's all it is... bull**** for the lazy.

All the studies you have provided us are for obese people who doesn't workout. Sorry, that doesn't really apply to the people of these forums. It's irrelevant...

That study to make you look smart is useless. It won't win any debates, because your logic is... wait what logic? LOL...

[tonymachado123]

i eat fat at everymeal now, and i have noticed a difference,
i go throw a jar of pb every 3-4 days now, and have like 4 egg yolks a day, and go threw a bag of almonds every week

when i first started i thought eating fat would make you fat,
i wish i knew back then, what i know now

[Inque]

Who says insulin is not important? LOL...


If I eat:

Protein/Fat
Protein/Fat
Protein/Fat
Fat/Protein - Switch it up a little.
Carbs for my Pre-Bed.



If you think that above meal plan is the same as breaking your carbs for breakfast/workout, you should stop giving advice. That's stupid. Stop with this "Calories/macronutrients total out at the end of the day, rest doesn't matter" bull****. That's all it is... bull**** for the lazy.

All the studies you have provided us are for obese people who doesn't workout. Sorry, that doesn't really apply to the people of these forums. It's irrelevant...

You have absolutely no idea what your talking about.

That study to make you look smart is useless. It won't win any debates, because your logic is... wait what logic? LOL...

You instantly lose all credibility when you make statements like this. You might want to consider getting off the bro-train.

[druluv]

The effectiveness of ketogenic diets in weight loss

In addition to the fact that an equal number of calories are ingested, KDs are more effective for achieving fat loss than conventional high-carbohydrate/low-fat diets. Low-carbohydrate diets have even proved to be more effective than conventional diets for more selective fat loss and conserving muscle mass [ 26 , 77 ]. Benoit et al. reported that when a 1000 kcal KD (10 g of carbohydrates/day) was consumed for 10 days, seven male subjects lost an average of 600 g/day, of which 97% was fat [ 77 ]. Young et al. [ 26 ] compared three diets, each consisting of 1800 kcal, but containing different proportions of carbohydrates (104 grams, 60 grams and 30 grams, respectively) and observed a negative correlation between the proportion of carbohydrates in the diet and weight loss and a positive correlation with lean weight loss. Thus, the lowest carbohydrate diet proved to be most effective way of losing weight and conserving muscle mass. Willi et al. [ 78 ]

Alan, I'm with you on the no carbs for PWO, any benefits to using heavy cream or half-n-half with protein powder, instead ?

Reduce carbs - you reduce insulin, this causes you to reduce dietary calories.
Reduce carbs - this increases the ability to use and release stored fatty acids into the blood.

http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php...tabolicEffects

[t-bone2]

All the studies you have provided us are for obese people who doesn't workout. Sorry, that doesn't really apply to the people of these forums. It's irrelevant...

Br J Nutr. 2007 Jul;98(1):17-25. Epub 2007 May 25.

Associations between postprandial insulin and blood glucose responses, appetite sensations and energy intake in normal weight and overweight individuals: a meta-analysis of test meal studies.

Flint A, Gregersen NT, Gluud LL, M?ller BK, Raben A, Tetens I, Verdich C, Astrup A.

It is unclear whether postprandial blood glucose or insulin exerts a regulatory function in short-term appetite regulation in humans. The aim of this study was to investigate, by use of meta-analysis, the role of blood glucose and insulin in short-term appetite sensation and energy intake (EI) in normal weight and overweight participants. Data from seven test meal studies were used, including 136 healthy participants (ALL) (92 normal weight (NW) and 44 overweight or obese (OW)). All meals were served as breakfasts after an overnight fast, and appetite sensations and blood samples were obtained frequently in the postprandial period. Finally, an ad libitum lunch was served. Data were analysed by fixed effects study level (SL) meta-regression analysis and individual participant data (IPD) regression analysis, using STATA software. In SL analysis, postprandial insulin response was associated with decreased hunger in ALL, NW and OW (P < 0.019), and with increased satiety in NW (P = 0.004) and lower subsequent EI in OW (P = 0.022). Multivariate IPD analysis showed similar associations, but only in NW for hunger, satiety and EI (P < 0.028), and in ALL for EI (P = 0.016). The only association involving blood glucose was the multivariate IPD analysis showing an inverse association between blood glucose and EI in ALL (P = 0.032). Our results suggest that insulin, but not glucose, is associated with short-term appetite regulation in healthy participants, but the relationship is disrupted in the overweight and obese. We conclude that the postprandial insulin response may be an important satiety signal, and that central nervous system insulin resistance in overweight might explain the blunted effect on appetite.

Read much, or just pontificate...?

[RachelBringIt]

I love how passionate people get about their PWO meals. Only on bodybuilding.com would people fight over insulin spikes


My philosophy: Eat balanced, Protein + carb after working out, Stay Under maintence = healthy body and fat loss

I really don't think its that complicated.

[DBcrusher]

Alan you clearly do not understand carb and fat metabolism.

Insulin makes you fat. It is this simple, and if you do not understand this I don't know how we can keep having this conversation.

I will present no data to support my claim. I will simply state that you are wrong, and re-state once again that I am correct and you are wrong.

Now I will smugly assert that I shall not listen to you, and state again th at the reason is because you do not understand fat metabolism.

With my argument made, I will now go bask in the glow of being correct, and having proven you wrong while not presenting any data.

Also, my gym manager offered me a job as a trainer today, further reinforcing how I am correct and you do not understand fat metabolism.

Did I mention that insulin makes you fat? It totally does.

Insulin does not always cause you to gain fat. Creating an insulin spike does have positive effects if used at the right times.

[Phosphate bond]

Insulin does not always cause you to gain fat. Creating an insulin spike does have positive effects if used at the right times.

I think he was being sarcastic when he wrote that.

[alan aragon]

"The effectiveness of ketogenic diets in weight loss

In addition to the fact that an equal number of calories are ingested, KDs are more effective for achieving fat loss than conventional high-carbohydrate/low-fat diets. Low-carbohydrate diets have even proved to be more effective than conventional diets for more selective fat loss and conserving muscle mass [ 26 , 77 ]. Benoit et al. reported that when a 1000 kcal KD (10 g of carbohydrates/day) was consumed for 10 days, seven male subjects lost an average of 600 g/day, of which 97% was fat [ 77 ]. Young et al. [ 26 ] compared three diets, each consisting of 1800 kcal, but containing different proportions of carbohydrates (104 grams, 60 grams and 30 grams, respectively) and observed a negative correlation between the proportion of carbohydrates in the diet and weight loss and a positive correlation with lean weight loss. Thus, the lowest carbohydrate diet proved to be most effective way of losing weight and conserving muscle mass. Willi et al. [ 78 ] "

Way to cite an essay referencing a bunch of studies comparing marginal protein intake with severely deficient protein intake... I wonder what's the lesser of the two evils?

Alan, I'm with you on the no carbs for PWO, any benefits to using heavy cream or half-n-half with protein powder, instead ?

My IQ just dropped down to double your IQ as a result of reading that.

Reduce carbs - you reduce insulin, this causes you to reduce dietary calories.

Way to skip over the objective data I provided regarding insulin response & appetite. Since it's clear you're not interested in science, let's just talk about fiction. What's your favorite movie?

Reduce carbs - this increases the ability to use and release stored fatty acids into the blood.

which can only happen in a caloric deficit, which was my original point to begin with.

[gainmusclefast]

i eat chicken (protein) + oatmeal/sweet potatoe/white potatoe (carbohydrate) everyday o no!

[alan aragon]

Alan you clearly do not understand carb and fat metabolism.

Insulin makes you fat. It is this simple, and if you do not understand this I don't know how we can keep having this conversation.

I will present no data to support my claim. I will simply state that you are wrong, and re-state once again that I am correct and you are wrong.

Now I will smugly assert that I shall not listen to you, and state again th at the reason is because you do not understand fat metabolism.

With my argument made, I will now go bask in the glow of being correct, and having proven you wrong while not presenting any data.

Also, my gym manager offered me a job as a trainer today, further reinforcing how I am correct and you do not understand fat metabolism.

Did I mention that insulin makes you fat? It totally does.

But bro, listen bro. I'm not dizagreeing w/u. I know that insulin makez u fatt. This is why pro BBers of the modern age use about triple the exogenous insulin than the old-time BBers -- so they can get fatt. Look how much fatter the pro BBers of today are than the pros of the 70's. It's the insulin I tell ya.

[soundcheck129]

But bro, listen bro. I'm not dizagreeing w/u. I know that insulin makez u fatt. This is why pro BBers of the modern age use about triple the exogenous insulin than the old-time BBers -- so they can get fatt. Look how much fatter the pro BBers of today are than the pros of the 70's. It's the insulin I tell ya.

Priceless.

[jonwilson]

Alan you clearly do not understand carb and fat metabolism.

Insulin makes you fat. It is this simple, and if you do not understand this I don't know how we can keep having this conversation.

I will present no data to support my claim. I will simply state that you are wrong, and re-state once again that I am correct and you are wrong.

Now I will smugly assert that I shall not listen to you, and state again th at the reason is because you do not understand fat metabolism.

With my argument made, I will now go bask in the glow of being correct, and having proven you wrong while not presenting any data.

Also, my gym manager offered me a job as a trainer today, further reinforcing how I am correct and you do not understand fat metabolism.

Did I mention that insulin makes you fat? It totally does.

you can still lose fat if youre in a calorie deficit, so your argument doesnt really hold up. id prolly say 95% of this board knows youre a nobody where alan is an expert on nutrition. funny thing i see constantly on this board is that everyone on here thinks theyre an expert on nutrition, its a joke and a sad day when you got people like you thinking you know more about nutrition than say a guy like alan aragon. im not necessarily sticking up for alan here cuz he doesnt need anyone to stick up for him cuz he can handle himself on this board, but im just dropping my 2 cents. your gym manager offered you a job as a trainer, woopty doo. im so happy for you. youre def. making moves in the world buddy.