The Muscle Factor Model

[Richard99]

allpro,

Thanks for the response. I question some of the claims you've made in your post and wonder if you would mind supporting a few of them with textbook, research, or other credible sources.

There are 18 different fiber types that have been identified and named so far. There might be a few more.

18 different fiber types? I'm familiar with 5-6 classifications, but have not been seen any data classifying them into 18. Proof?

Muscle fibers hypertrophy because of DAMAGE not fatigue.

Proof? And, can you damage a fiber without fatiguing it?

The 2B group exhausts it's fuel source, ATP, in as little as 5 seconds in an athlete with a well trained CNS. For the average person they last about 10 seconds.

2Bs exhausted in 5-10 seconds? Proof?

The average person can only activate about 50% of their motor units under a maxim voluntary contraction.

Only 50%? Source?

2As last about 30-45 seconds for a well trained athlete, about 1-1:30 seconds for the average person for the same reasons as stated above.

That quickly? Proof? And how do you explain the research that measured a range of fatigue in fast twitch fibers of 16 seconds - 34 minutes?



That's enough for now. Looking forward to reading your proof sources, as I am keen on staying abreast of the latest in research and exercise physiology.

Now I just KNOW you aren't going to tell me that 1 set too failure will do it all........RIGHT?

I'm confused as to why you (and that other guy who doesn't read) suggest that I believe 1 set to failure is the way to train. Did I recommend 1 set to failure somewhere and have forgotten about it?

Let me see if I can clear things up for you. As the muscle factor model clearly shows, it is impossible to train all the muscle fibers (or as many as is practical for that athlete/sport/activity) in a whole muscle with a single set. That's why 1 set to failure is a less than optimal training method. Anyone who understands the muscle factor model will completely understand why this is so. Anyone promoting 1 set to failure doesn't grasp the muscle factor model.

[all pro]

allpro,

Thanks for the response. I question some of the claims you've made in your post and wonder if you would mind supporting a few of them with textbook, research, or other credible sources.



18 different fiber types? I'm familiar with 5-6 classifications, but have not been seen any data classifying them into 18. Proof?



Proof? And, can you damage a fiber without fatiguing it?



2Bs exhausted in 5-10 seconds? Proof?



Only 50%? Source?



That quickly? Proof? And how do you explain the research that measured a range of fatigue in fast twitch fibers of 16 seconds - 34 minutes?



That's enough for now. Looking forward to reading your proof sources, as I am keen on staying abreast of the latest in research and exercise physiology.






I'm confused as to why you (and that other guy who doesn't read) suggest that I believe 1 set to failure is the way to train. Did I recommend 1 set to failure somewhere and have forgotten about it?

Let me see if I can clear things up for you. As the muscle factor model clearly shows, it is impossible to train all the muscle fibers (or as many as is practical for that athlete/sport/activity) in a whole muscle with a single set. That's why 1 set to failure is a less than optimal training method. Anyone who understands the muscle factor model will completely understand why this is so. Anyone promoting 1 set to failure doesn't grasp the muscle factor model.

Go back and reread what I posted at the beginning. If I've missed anything, trust me I have the proof as most of the posters here will readily attest to.
Oh wait a minute.

Tanner, Hisham. "Muscle fiber type is associated with obesity and weight loss" East Carolina University, Greenville, North Carolina

Simoneau JA, Bouchard C. "Genetic determinism of fiber type proportion in human skeletal muscle." Physical Activity Sciences Laboratory, Laval University, Ste-Foy, Quebec, Canada

Jansson E, Esbjornsson M, Holm I, Jacobs I. "Increase in the proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibres by sprint training in males." Acta Physiol Scand. 1990 Nov;140(3):359-63.

Paddon-Jones D, Leveritt M, Lonergan A, Abernethy P "Adaptation to chronic eccentric exercise in humans: the influence of contraction velocity." Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Sep;85(5):466-71.

Friedmann B, Kinscherf R, Vorwald S, Muller H, Kucera K, Borisch S, Richter G, Bartsch P, Billeter R. "Muscular adaptations to computer-guided strength training with eccentric overload."Department of Sports Medicine, Medical Clinic and Policlinic, University of Heidelberg,Germany.

Andersen JL, Aagaard P "Myosin heavy chain IIX overshoot in human skeletal muscle." Muscle Nerve 2000 Jul;23(7):1095-104

Widrick JJ, Trappe SW, Costill DL, Fitts RH. "Force-velocity and force-power properties of single muscle fibers from elite master runners and sedentary men." Department of Biology, Marquette University, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53201, USA.

Bee G, Solomon MB, Czerwinski SM, Long C, Pursel VG Correlation between histochemically assessed fiber type distribution and isomyosin and myosin heavy chain content in porcine skeletal muscles. J Anim Sci 1999 Aug;77(8):2104-11

Stone, Caleb "A Revolutionary Approach to Strength Training". Mind and Muscle Magazine - AvantLabs.com

Tesch PA, Wright JE, Vogel JA, Daniels WL, Sharp DS, Sjodin B The influence of muscle metabolic characteristics o*n physical performance. Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol 1985;54(3):237-43

Morner SE, Canepari M, Bottinelli R, Cappelli V, Reggiani C Effects of Amrinone on shortening velocity, force development and ATPase activity of demembranated preparations of rat ventricular myocardium. Acta Physiol Scand 1992 Sep;146(1):21-30

Houmard JA, O'Neill DS, Zheng D, Hickey MS, Dohm GL Impact of hyperinsulinemia o*n myosin heavy chain gene regulation. J Appl Physiol 1999 Jun;86(6):1828-32

Siff, Mel. "Supertraining" 2003

Hatfield, Fred. "Fitness The Complete Guide". International Sports Sciences Association. 1996

Sharman, Newton,"Changes in MHC composition accompanying high intensity resistance training in 60- 75 year olds." American College of Sports Medicine Annual Meetings, Indianapolis, USA.

Orizio C, Veicsteinas A. "Soundmyogram analysis during sustained maximal voluntary contraction in sprinters and long distance runners." Int J Sports Med. 1992 Nov;13(8):594-9.

Ross A, Leveritt M. "Long-term metabolic and skeletal muscle adaptations to short-sprint training: implications for sprint training and tapering.Sports Med. 2001;31(15):1063-82."

Mero A, Jaakkola L, Komi PV. "Relationships between muscle fibre characteristics and physical performance capacity in trained athletic boys."Mero A, Jaakkola L, Komi PV.

Have fun see you in about a year and if you want more I have a LOT more.

[all pro]

And might I suggest a few books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=fkx...Yu_xYbRSO9Isyk
http://books.google.com/books?id=IX6...GGaUMYimI0a42E
http://books.google.com/books?id=QWS...WxU3dPIWwKrits
http://books.google.com/books?id=wp3...6y_O2KOdUpkG2o
http://books.google.com/books?id=Pql...ydUq2g5PJLsLfk
http://books.google.com/books?id=fpY...hor:Zatsiorsky
http://www.performbetter.com/detail....tegoryID_E_266

ENJOY

[Richard99]

allpro,

Thanks for posting all those citations. To make it clear, would you please match the cited studies up against your claims?

Let's start with just one - which of those sources support your claim that there are 18 different fiber types? Based on the titles I wasn't able to figure out which ones supported this claim.

Thanks in advance.

[magiata93]

all pro i hope u dont mind but i just copied and pasted all ur post about training on my pc and ill read them. 10x again and i get the best answers from all pro

[all pro]

allpro,

Thanks for posting all those citations. To make it clear, would you please match the cited studies up against your claims?

Let's start with just one - which of those sources support your claim that there are 18 different fiber types? Based on the titles I wasn't able to figure out which ones supported this claim.

Thanks in advance.

There are more than 3
http://www.springerlink.com/content/x843378082314861/
http://ajpcell.physiology.org/cgi/co...ct/267/6/C1723
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9002237
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://www.springerlink.com/content/l43512q627440x51/
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h5803082886pg207/
I can keep going all night and in the end you will have 18 different fiber types. But I can't think of a single good reason to keep this up. It's boring.

[all pro]

End of discussion.
http://runningtimes.com/forum/archiv....php?t-62.html
http://www.powerrunning.com/About%20me.htm

[Vermonta]

all pro for president! **** Obama and McCain!! Viva La Revolution!!!!

[Richard99]

I looked at the abstract for every cited study. Not a single one cited 18 different fiber types. The most was 6.

For example, the very first citation you provided had this to say - "Six fiber types (1, IC, IIC, IIA, IIAB, and IIB) were distinguished..."

The last citation said this, "Six muscle fiber types (I, IC, IIAC, IIA, IIAB, and IIB) were determined using basic myofibrillar adenosine triphosphatase histochemistry. Cross-sectional areas were determined for the three major fiber types (I, IIA, and IIB) and used to calculate the percentage area of these types."

Where or where are the other 12 fiber types? Instead of posting links to abstracts that don't support your claim, perhaps you could cut/paste from an abstract or study?

[all pro]

It is now generally recognized that skeletal muscle fibers do
not exist in three discrete forms at the subcellular level, but
rather in a continuum based on the multitude of combinations
of myosin heavy and light chain isoforms, polymorphic expression
of protein isoforms, metabolic potential, and Ca2*
handling characteristics. Moreover, it is clear that all of these
cellular characteristics exhibit some degree of plasticity in
response to exercise training
http://www.the-aps.org/publications/...es/ingalls.pdf

[all pro]

You want to be stubborn, alright, lets rock.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Human+...te)-a080299520

[Richard99]

It is now generally recognized that skeletal muscle fibers do
not exist in three discrete forms at the subcellular level, but
rather in a continuum based on the multitude of combinations
of myosin heavy and light chain isoforms, polymorphic expression
of protein isoforms, metabolic potential, and Ca2
handling characteristics. Moreover, it is clear that all of these
cellular characteristics exhibit some degree of plasticity in
response to exercise training
http://www.the-aps.org/publications/...es/ingalls.pdf

Thanks for posting that. I see it doesn't indicate 18 different fiber types either.

Since you haven't been able to cite a single credible source for your claim that there are 18 different fiber types it appears you have simply made this number up. Unless you've got a credible source citing 18 fiber types I suggest we agree to chalk this one up as an inaccurate claim on your part and move on to your next claim.

[Richard99]

allpro,

You claimed:

Muscle fibers hypertrophy because of DAMAGE not fatigue.

Would you please cut/paste the sources proving this claim?

And, most importantly, can you damage a fiber without fatiguing it?


Thanks in advance for your response.

[GuyJin]

Richard,

The "Muscle Fiber Typing" sub-section in the last link All Pro provided was most informative. It is true that only seven were listed, but there was a codicil that "there may be more." My best guess is that with advanced "staining" techniques, more and more sub-types within those groups will be identified. Now, to what end they influence muscle hypertrophy/strength is more up a physiologist's alley, but I'd venture to say that they all have an interdependant relationship tipping either to growth or strength, and the type of traiing that you do will cause them to either increase or decrease in size and function. Stands to reason, doesn't it, although that's just a guess on my part.

I would still like to see a template of your type of training. I looked on your website and couldn't find any articles or programmes. I'd appreciate a look at your type of training and your reasons for doing so.

[Richard99]

GuyJin,

The emerging truth about muscle fibers is that they are not homogenous in their contractile properties as is implied by muscle fiber type classification. Instead, increasing amounts of research are indicating muscle fibers posses a heterogenous range of contractile properties. This makes sense in that it fits with the way all animals move. Animals (including humans) don't move like a transmission with a fixed number of gears and a distinct transition between gears. Instead animals move at a broad continuum of speeds, force output, and amounts of time requiring muscle fibers that posses an equally broad continuum of speeds, force output, and endurance.

This fact about muscle fibers makes the muscle factor model even more applicable. For the sake of brevity and not distracting the athletic community from the main point of the muscle factor model I continue to reference the 3 traditional classifications of muscle fiber types (the number of different muscle fiber types doesn't change the basic truth of the muscle factor model).

We will eventually get to a sample training program, but, as stated earlier, I believe it is best to work through the physiology first. The as yet unsupported physiology claims by allpro seem to me to support my decision on this point. If you care to have a private conversation about training, pm or email me and we can talk privately about the strength training program I've developed based on the muscle factor model.

[N@tural1]

Post the dam thing already IF its so revolutionary. I dont think you ever will because you just want to talk.

You did notice you posted this in the workout programs section?

quit spamming and post a dam workout

[N@tural1]

Methods of Training

Vladimir Zatsiorsky has summed up the various forms of resistance training necessary to support maximal recruitment of motor units, and therefore muscle fibers, as the following 3 methods of training.

Maximum Effort (ME)

This form of training involves lifting at a very high level of intensity. Simplified, this means lifting a weight that is at 90% or greater than your 1RM.

Dynamic Effort (DE)

This is what is commonly referred to as speed or power work. You use sub-maximal loads and impose compensatory acceleration on the weight being moved. The parameters involved in this type of training vary widely, but generally 50-70% of your 1RM is the intensity level used. Sets are completed in a manner so that fatigue is negligible and maximum acceleration can be used on each working set.

Repeated Effort (RE)

This is the tool most often used by bodybuilders. The loads are considered relatively intense and performed until at or near muscular failure. The intensity level used for this type of training is generally somewhere around 65-85% of your 1RM. The state of fatigue associated with being at or near muscular failure can be achieved over the course of multiple working sets.


Now teach us something we don't know.

[Richard99]

Now teach us something we don't know.

How about examining each of these 3 resistance/rep ranges from the perspective of muscle fiber overload?

I'll start the ball rolling.

Max effort = 90% or higher % of 1RM = approx 1-3 reps = approx 5-12 seconds per set = activation of all 3 fiber types and overloading only those fibers that fatigue in 12 seconds or less.

[fbcoach]

I'm confused as to why you (and that other guy who doesn't read) suggest that I believe 1 set to failure is the way to train. Did I recommend 1 set to failure somewhere and have forgotten about it?

Hi Dick,
I'm the guy that didn't bother to read that crock of crap you planted due to all the half-truths you stated in the beginning paragraphs. I may not be able to read..BUT..I can smell a load of BS when fertilized and sprinkled on the forums. Either get to hoeing and pimp your site, er..I mean plant your seed, or get moving to greener pasteurs.

[Richard99]

...I may not be able to read..BUT..I can smell a load of BS when fertilized and sprinkled on the forums...

Wow! I think this is the first time I've heard someone claim accepted physiological facts to be BS while at the same time expressing ignorance of those facts.

Hope it all works out for you.

[fbcoach]

Wow! I think this is the first time I've heard someone claim accepted physiological facts to be BS while at the same time expressing ignorance of those facts.

Hope it all works out for you.

Where did you state any facts fool????
Ignorant!! Who me?? Better to be ignorant than some malicious misleading clown that can't even post a workout. Either post an example....OR GET TO STEPPING!!!!

[Richard99]

Where did you state any facts...

In most of my posts, but you wouldn't know that since you didn't read them.

Ignorant!! Who me?? Better to be ignorant...

Better to be ignorant, huh? You do seem to have the ignorant part down pat, with your strategy of not taking time to even read what has been posted.

It's been entertaining talking to you, but I prefer to stick to reasonable discussion, so I bid you adios and will let you rant on alone.

[Kelei]

Max effort = 90% or higher % of 1RM = approx 1-3 reps = approx 5-12 seconds per set = activation of all 3 fiber types and overloading only those fibers that fatigue in 12 seconds or less.

During ME all fibers are recruited and all experience high levels of tension which causes protein degradation and fiber damage, this results in sarcomere hypertrophy, it must also be noted that sufficient mechanical work (total TUT for the workout regardless of TUT per set) must be performed in order to create a minimum threshold of fiber damage.

In regards to overloading fibers that fatigue in 12 seconds or less, you are talking about sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, fiber damage may be the stimulas for sarcomere hypertrophy but it is fiber fatigue that is the stimulas for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

Sarcomere hypertrophy is caused by the raw amount of mechanical work causing damage to fibers, essentially mechanical stress occured through total tonnage.

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is caused by fiber metabolic fatigue through greater TUT per set, less rest between sets, drop sets, and other fatigue inducing methods, essentially metabolic fatigue is the stimulas for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

Also everything all pro has posted in this thread thus far is correct.

[Richard99]

During ME all fibers are recruited and all experience high levels of tension which causes protein degradation and fiber damage, this results in sarcomere hypertrophy.

Kelei,

If I understand what you've written here, you are saying that ME causes sarcomere hypertrophy in all active fibers. Is that correct?

[Kelei]

Kelei,

If I understand what you've written here, you are saying that ME causes sarcomere hypertrophy in all active fibers. Is that correct?

Providing enough total tonnage is performed, for example,

3 sets of 3 reps with 100 pounds = 900 pounds of work

Because your high threshold fibers are more easily damaged 900 pounds of work may be sufficient to induce sufficient damage to the fibers above 85% recruitment threshold, but the lower you progress down the recruitment threshold the more resistant fibers become to damage, so 900 pounds of work may not be sufficient to create enough damage to the fibers within the 70-85% recruitment threshold, these fibers would require more total tonnage to induce sufficient fiber damage, and once you reach below 60% recruitment threshold you encounter slow twitch fibers which are highly resistant to damage, so again you would need even further total tonnage.

[N@tural1]

I think coaches point is he's is gettin tired of ppl coming to the forums claiming they have the uber program, talking a load and not provideing an example or evidence.

To be honest with you, we'r all gettin sick and tired of these type of posters.

[fbcoach]

Quit your BSing Dick, and post something REAL!! You are either trying to sell some sort of BS or pimping a site!

You can always correct ignorancy, but you can't get the smell of BS off your clothes!

CAN YOU SMELL WHAT THE JEDI ARE COOKING?????????

[fbcoach]

I think coaches point is he's is gettin tired of ppl coming to the forums claiming they have the uber program, talking a load and not provideing an example or evidence.

To be honest with you, we'r all gettin sick and tired of these type of posters.

Brit,
I am WAAYYYY beyond tired!!

[Richard99]

I think coaches point is he's is gettin tired of ppl coming to the forums claiming they have the uber program, talking a load and not provideing an example or evidence.

To be honest with you, we'r all gettin sick and tired of these type of posters.

Okay, that makes sense. I can see how that would be tiring after a while. And because of that anytime someone comes along with a true advancement in physiology or an updated training method it is immediately taken that they are one of those types of posters and so, rather than considering what they are saying, they are attacked.

[N@tural1]

Okay, that makes sense. I can see how that would be tiring after a while. And because of that anytime someone comes along with a true advancement in physiology or an updated training method it is immediately taken that they are one of those types of posters and so, rather than considering what they are saying, they are attacked.

With all due respect, what have you said thats so revolutionary?

Ok muscle needs overload/tension to adapt yes

Various muscle fibres respond differently ok

Different methods of set/reps = various results

All muscle fibre should be trained for full development.

We all agree, whats new?