Looking for a civil discussion on the use of arginine in pump products

[An Inconvenient Bro]

I want a civil discussion on this topic if at all possible, but I would prefer hearing from someone who has actually formulated the product, not just someone who talked to someone who knew someone who put some uber arginine in the formula.

So here's my question. Why arginine?

all companies welcome.

[The Bigger Picture]

I want a civil discussion on this topic if at all possible, but I would prefer hearing from someone who has actually formulated the product, not just someone who talked to someone who knew someone who put some uber arginine in the formula.

So here's my question. Why arginine?

all companies welcome.

Nitric Oxide (N.O.) is a cellular gas that causes blood vessels to dilate, engorging the muscles with blood, increasing oxygen & nutrient delivery, and facilitating the removal of metabolic waste products that lead to fatigue. This cascade of events is whats known as "The PUMP." Consumed in sufficient amounts, Arginine is one of the best, if not the best, precursors of N.O. synthesis in the body.

[little lats]

I have never been able to get it through my head that these products do what they say other than make you look like a puffer fish. All the years of reading on here and M&M pre-ban told me that this crap is a marketing product not a science product. If I want to take something that is going to supposedly make muscle, it had better shrink my balls also.

[The Bigger Picture]

copy and pasting sucksssssssssssssss

you write the articles it doesnt matter.

[Rodzilla]

When you write the articles it doesnt matter.

my bad, I didn't realize and was too quick to strike the keyboard.

[The Bigger Picture]

my bad, I didn't realize and was too quick to strike the keyboard.

no harm. Good eye though!!!

[ATHLETIC EDGE NUTRITION]

I want a civil discussion on this topic if at all possible, but I would prefer hearing from someone who has actually formulated the product, not just someone who talked to someone who knew someone who put some uber arginine in the formula.

So here's my question. Why arginine?

all companies welcome.

While I wouldn't use it for this purpose in a product, it was a good story to tell from marketing perspective. It is the precursor to NO and it does cause vasodilation, so it was easy to think these effects were brought about through it increasing NO. As I assume you know, studies show arginine is not the rate limiting factor for NO synthesis in humans, but many people don't. Taking extra arginine orally, wont increase NO levels.

It does increase vasodialtion though, but through spiking insulin and insulin having direct vasodialtion effects.

Easy for many to think,the vasodialtion is occurring from NO increases, not realizing it's through increasing insulin.

Not much more complicated than that imo.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

Nitric Oxide (N.O.) is a cellular gas that causes blood vessels to dilate, engorging the muscles with blood, increasing oxygen & nutrient delivery, and facilitating the removal of metabolic waste products that lead to fatigue. This cascade of events is whats known as "The PUMP." Consumed in sufficient amounts, Arginine is one of the best, if not the best, precursors of N.O. synthesis in the body.

ok, but what are you basing that statement on?

[The Bigger Picture]

ok, but what are you basing that statement on?

We do all in house testing as we do not trust outside sources. If you notice we have not introduced an arginine based NO product out for years after our Vassive NO. We pride ourselves in quality and conduct the most comprehensive studies. Yes I know everyone claims to this statement but that is when we let our products speak for themselves.

[Zachattack43]

We do all in house testing as we do not trust outside sources. If you notice we have not introduced an arginine based NO product out for years after our Vassive NO. We pride ourselves in quality and conduct the most comprehensive studies. Yes I know everyone claims to this statement but that is when we let our products speak for themselves.

I dont think you answered his question, but rather gave a politically correct speech to tout ON when the issue is about arginine, not about your company.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

We do all in house testing as we do not trust outside sources. If you notice we have not introduced an arginine based NO product out for years after our Vassive NO. We pride ourselves in quality and conduct the most comprehensive studies. Yes I know everyone claims to this statement but that is when we let our products speak for themselves.

I was hoping more for research.....but ok....

I don't doubt optimum's quality for a minute just not sure how it's applicable in this discussion

[The Bigger Picture]

I was hoping more for research.....but ok....

I don't doubt optimum's quality for a minute just not sure how it's applicable in this discussion

Just got home and saw the post. I appologize if I misunderstood you and got off track. I will be more than happy to post our facts about arginine and why we incoporate it into our products.

[little lats]

this died quick

[SPACECLOWN]

this died quick

Agreed. I would like to here more info on this and would like to hear PGI's information that he keeps teasing about.

[little lats]

Agreed. I would like to here more info on this and would like to hear PGI's information that he keeps teasing about.

I remember when discussions like this went on forever. Now only one company responds...

[ATHLETIC EDGE NUTRITION]

I remember when discussions like this went on forever. Now only one company responds...

My response pretty much sums up the reality of arginine and NO, I'm very familiar with most of the research. It truly isn't much more complicated than that.

[leonidas300]

My response pretty much sums up the reality of arginine and NO, I'm very familiar with most of the research. It truly isn't much more complicated than that.

You are so smart. NO is marketing plain and simple, only a single study showed any benefit and that was for a 1 rep bench press.

[little lats]

You are so smart. NO is marketing plain and simple, only a single study showed any benefit and that was for a 1 rep bench press.

That single study has made a ton of money though.... I'm still wating for my 10lbs on my bench from Cell-tech.... I'm glad I'm a hair smarter now.

[ATHLETIC EDGE NUTRITION]

You are so smart. NO is marketing plain and simple, only a single study showed any benefit and that was for a 1 rep bench press.

Honestly, I don't know what more can be said than my original post, it's the reality of the aginine/NO research.

I've even looked at studies measuring NO levels from people that were put on a arginine FREE diet and than supplemented arginine and it still showed NO changes in NO synthesis. The list goes on and on.

I've always felt fortunate that the science is so WEAK in this industry,that eventhough it's highly saturated, there's stil plenty of room for effective products to be launched, based on properly interpreted science.

[leonidas300]

Honestly, I don't know what more can be said than my original post, it's the reality of the aginine/NO research.

I've even looked at studies measuring NO levels from people that were put on a arginine FREE diet and than supplemented arginine and it still showed NO changes in NO synthesis. The list goes on and on.

I've always felt fortunate that the science is so WEAK in this industry,that eventhough it's highly saturated, there's stil plenty of room for effective products to be launched, based on properly interpreted science.

the American School system is strong on science education. /sarcasm.

[quank]

Nitric Oxide (N.O.) is a cellular gas that causes blood vessels to dilate, engorging the muscles with blood, increasing oxygen & nutrient delivery, and facilitating the removal of metabolic waste products that lead to fatigue. This cascade of events is whats known as "The PUMP." Consumed in sufficient amounts, Arginine is one of the best, if not the best, precursors of N.O. synthesis in the body.

Vanadyl Sulfate will give you and your veins the same reaction. it's just from back in the day and forgotten about. the "Pump" is nothing new.

[SPACECLOWN]

So peoples thoughts on citrulline malate as an NO producer?

[Rodzilla]

So peoples thoughts on citrulline malate as an NO producer?

I get the impression that the research isn't as conveying as once thought.

[ATHLETIC EDGE NUTRITION]

So peoples thoughts on citrulline malate as an NO producer?

Yeah, since the citrulline is just a way to increase endogenous arginine, the same thing I said about arginine applies, as increased arginine does not drive NO synthesis.

Citrulline MAY have some other potential uses though and I know its well liked on the forums. Do these potential benefits carry over to bringing about performance changes in humans? Who knows, as the research on it, is pretty much non existent, except for the one finger flextion study, from back in 2002.


I'm sure this is disappointing for alot of people, including myself, but from a research standpoint, it is what it is.

[SPACECLOWN]

Yeah, since the citrulline is just a way to increase endogenous arginine, the same thing I said about arginine applies, as increased arginine does not drive NO synthesis.

Citrulline MAY have some other potential uses though and I know its well liked on the forums. Do these potential benefits carry over to bringing about performance changes in humans? Who knows, as the research on it, is pretty much non existent, except for the one finger flextion study, from back in 2002.


I'm sure this is disappointing for alot of people, including myself, but from a research standpoint, it is what it is.

it's one of my favorite ingredients. You can have AAKG but don't take my CM! LOL As for pumps I honestly give 2 ****s but the endurance aspect of it is what actually intrigues me.

[ATHLETIC EDGE NUTRITION]

it's one of my favorite ingredients. You can have AAKG but don't take my CM! LOL As for pumps I honestly give 2 ****s but the endurance aspect of it is what actually intrigues me.

I know and the anecdotal feedback is strong and should NOT be discounted IMO, atleast from a performance perspective. From a NO, perspective, I would classify it, as the same as arginine.


It would be nice if someone would do a legit citrulline human performance study, like what we have so many for creatine or beta-alanine.

In the mean time if people like it, I see no reason to stop using it, simply based off the lack of research.

On a positive note, I've never seen anything to show it doesn't improve performance either, so who knows

[leonidas300]

I know and the anecdotal feedback is strong and should NOT be discounted IMO, atleast from a performance perspective. From a NO, perspective, I would classify it, as the same as arginine.


It would be nice if someone would do a legit citrulline human performance study, like what we have so many for creatine or beta-alanine.

In the mean time if people like it, I see no reason to stop using it, simply based off the lack of research.

On a positive note, I've never seen anything to show it doesn't improve performance either, so who knows

What is your stance on combining Taurine and beta-alanine, problematic or not so much?

[Elliptical Envy]

Where did that one guy from ON go?

WTF @ Customizer's new name

[cxm]

I know and the anecdotal feedback is strong and should NOT be discounted IMO, atleast from a performance perspective. From a NO, perspective, I would classify it, as the same as arginine.


It would be nice if someone would do a legit citrulline human performance study, like what we have so many for creatine or beta-alanine.

In the mean time if people like it, I see no reason to stop using it, simply based off the lack of research.

On a positive note, I've never seen anything to show it doesn't improve performance either, so who knows

I like PLCAR over citrulline malate for endurance....any thoughts on PLCAR?

[leonidas300]

Where did that one guy from ON go?

He ran out of propaganda.