What is wrong with the American Church?

[ObedEdom]

Before we get started, let me give you a bit of backgroud. I am a Christian but I wasn't raised in church, I lived for myself for 21 years and then gave my life to Christ and have not regretted a day since. In a moment, God started a process in me that remains to this day, a process of less of me and more of Him.

I am a pastor in an evangelical church in Ohio. I love what I do and I love the people I minister to, I am a very blessed man. That being said, I see alot of holes in the way we do things...people don't see a Loving Forgiving God when they look at us. People don't see mercy and kindness, they don't see........Christ.

I ask myself: are we (Christians) the hypocrytes everybody calls us? Are we intolerant of everyone that does not look and act just like us? Is Christ relevant to this world...if the answer is no, it's not His fault. It's because Christ has been misrepresented by His own family...us


We, the church (organized religeon) is missing the point of Christ sacrifice, God's Holiness and our own deep desprite need for both to be real in our lives.

So I am inviting you, whatever belief system you may have, to tell me what we are doing wrong. I am writing this to be a intelligent discussion, not a protecting-of-all-that-is-sacred rant so Christians, if you post, please tone down the rhetoric and listen to what people really think of us...

[Thinman]

As I have said in other threads, I think religion has gotten to political. It seems like there are a lot of Christians more concerned with banning abortion, gay rights etc. then being a good witness for Christ.

[caj]

As a Christian, these are some of the things I have observed:

*Christians have become too worldly and material

*Pastors/Priests are afraid to 'step on toes' fearing they will offend their flock

*Christians have compromised on too many issues

*A lot of people go to church for reasons other than praising God or searching for Spiritual answers

[Boffman]

Just to warn you, this is very blunt. Also, this is how I really view Christianity, I'm not exaggerating what I think.

Before we get started, let me give you a bit of backgroud. I am a Christian but I wasn't raised in church, I lived for myself for 21 years and then gave my life to Christ and have not regretted a day since. In a moment, God started a process in me that remains to this day, a process of less of me and more of Him.

I am a pastor in an evangelical church in Ohio. I love what I do and I love the people I minister to, I am a very blessed man. That being said, I see alot of holes in the way we do things...people don't see a Loving Forgiving God when they look at us. People don't see mercy and kindness, they don't see........Christ.

It might be becuase the bible says that we should kill disobedient children, homosexuals or becuase god says he HATES those who doeth iniquity(immoral acts). God is such loving God, he throws people in to hell to suffer for eternity and he KNEW he was going to do it. HE KNEW he was going to have the majority of his creations suffering in hell for all of eternity.

This "loving" god doesn't seem to exist in Christianity.

I ask myself: are we (Christians) the hypocrytes everybody calls us? Are we intolerant of everyone that does not look and act just like us?

Well considering you condemn all who don't believe like you to an eternity of suffering. Or the fact that God himself is a homophobe.

Is Christ relevant to this world...if the answer is no, it's not His fault. It's because Christ has been misrepresented by His own family...us

This is not the only reason...

We, the church (organized religeon) is missing the point of Christ sacrifice, God's Holiness and our own deep desprite need for both to be real in our lives.

So I am inviting you, whatever belief system you may have, to tell me what we are doing wrong. I am writing this to be a intelligent discussion, not a protecting-of-all-that-is-sacred rant so Christians, if you post, please tone down the rhetoric and listen to what people really think of us...

I think you Christians are close-minded purposefully and willfully ignorant people who choose to take the easy route in explaining lifes mysteries. You believe everything that is told to you in your religion despite the MOUNTAINS of contradicting evidence. You slow down, even halt, scientific progress in areas such as cloning (which could increase life expectancy ENORMOUSLY) because "we shouldn't play god." Christians are bigots and religously biased, people who damn anyone who doesn't believe as them. You demand respect for you beliefs but you can't justify them more than the guy who says he believes in the boogy man.

How do we repect someone who has absolutely no basis for his beliefs whatsoever?

How are we suppose to believe in an ancient book contradicted by itself and scientific evidence.

How are we to see a loving god when one clearly doesn't exist in Christianity.

How are we to believe that one religion is right and all the others will be damned to hell, no matter how moral they are.

Tell me, please.

To all Christians: No need for negs or insults, just persuade me otherwise.

[hokiebird]

Before we get started, let me give you a bit of backgroud. I am a Christian but I wasn't raised in church, I lived for myself for 21 years and then gave my life to Christ and have not regretted a day since. In a moment, God started a process in me that remains to this day, a process of less of me and more of Him.

I am a pastor in an evangelical church in Ohio. I love what I do and I love the people I minister to, I am a very blessed man. That being said, I see alot of holes in the way we do things...people don't see a Loving Forgiving God when they look at us. People don't see mercy and kindness, they don't see........Christ.

I ask myself: are we (Christians) the hypocrytes everybody calls us? Are we intolerant of everyone that does not look and act just like us? Is Christ relevant to this world...if the answer is no, it's not His fault. It's because Christ has been misrepresented by His own family...us


We, the church (organized religeon) is missing the point of Christ sacrifice, God's Holiness and our own deep desprite need for both to be real in our lives.

So I am inviting you, whatever belief system you may have, to tell me what we are doing wrong. I am writing this to be a intelligent discussion, not a protecting-of-all-that-is-sacred rant so Christians, if you post, please tone down the rhetoric and listen to what people really think of us...

The church has left its first love.

[ObedEdom]

Just to warn you, this is very blunt. Also, this is how I really view Christianity, I'm not exaggerating what I think.



It might be becuase the bible says that we should kill disobedient children, homosexuals or becuase god says he HATES those who doeth iniquity(immoral acts). God is such loving God, he throws people in to hell to suffer for eternity and he KNEW he was going to do it. HE KNEW he was going to have the majority of his creations suffering in hell for all of eternity.

This "loving" god doesn't seem to exist in Christianity.



Well considering you condemn all who don't believe like you to an eternity of suffering. Or the fact that God himself is a homophobe.



This is not the only reason...



I think you Christians are close-minded purposefully and willfully ignorant people who choose to take the easy route in explaining lifes mysteries. You believe everything that is told to you in your religion despite the MOUNTAINS of contradicting evidence. You slow down, even halt, scientific progress in areas such as cloning (which could increase life expectancy ENORMOUSLY) because "we shouldn't play god." Christians are bigots and religously biased, people who damn anyone who doesn't believe as them. You demand respect for you beliefs but you can't justify them more than the guy who says he believes in the boogy man.

How do we repect someone who has absolutely no basis for his beliefs whatsoever?

How are we suppose to believe in an ancient book contradicted by itself and scientific evidence.

How are we to see a loving god when one clearly doesn't exist in Christianity.

How are we to believe that one religion is right and all the others will be damned to hell, no matter how moral they are.

Tell me, please.

To all Christians: No need for negs or insults, just persuade me otherwise.

please do not neg him, if you must, neg me. Thank you Boffman, that was exactly what I was looking for.

The church has left its first love.

I agree completly

[Boffman]

please do not neg him, if you must, neg me. Thank you Boffman, that was exactly what I was looking for.

Your welcome, that was exactly how I feel.

[timbo81]

dude as a pastor you should know what God teaches will ALWAYS be at odds to what the world teaches on issues such as morality especially.

I don't want to derail your thread but I am totally opposed to churches watering down the message like the reality of hell and sin just to try and boost falling church numbers.

I'd rather be disliked for what I believe than compromise my beliefs to gain the favour of mankind.

[Minotaur]

I ask myself: are we (Christians) the hypocrytes everybody calls us? Are we intolerant of everyone that does not look and act just like us? Is Christ relevant to this world...if the answer is no, it's not His fault. It's because Christ has been misrepresented by His own family...us

Not all Christians, and not even most Christians. Most try to adhere to Christ's messages and teachings.

As I have said in other threads, I think religion has gotten to political. It seems like there are a lot of Christians more concerned with banning abortion, gay rights etc. then being a good witness for Christ.

Indeed. Not only are these Christians in this world, but they've become of this world.

This "loving" god doesn't seem to exist in Christianity.

I think he does, he's just been supplanted by the one who fulfills the agenda of the self-servers.

I don't want to derail your thread but I am totally opposed to churches watering down the message like the reality of hell and sin just to try and boost falling church numbers.

I'd rather be disliked for what I believe than compromise my beliefs to gain the favour of mankind.

You are the very thing the op is worried about. You've completely lost sight of Christ and his message.

[ObedEdom]

dude as a pastor you should know what God teaches will ALWAYS be at odds to what the world teaches on issues such as morality especially.

I don't want to derail your thread but I am totally opposed to churches watering down the message like the reality of hell and sin just to try and boost falling church numbers.

I'd rather be disliked for what I believe than compromise my beliefs to gain the favour of mankind.

As a pastor, I do know that Christ came to bring a sword...and that families will be divided, He said so.

I don't think we should "water down" anything. Truth is truth, no way around it. The methodology in which we present truth has to change because we exisit in the eternal continuium in which the "truth delivered once and for all for the edification of saints" has to be real and relevant on May 22, 2008...and we aren't. The world is changing, truth remains the same but the way it is presented has to be updated. In my process of where the Body of Christ is going, I must understand what my dear friends (who don't know the greatest love the world has ever known) think of Christians and what they are doing wrong.


And from my perspective, we are doing plenty wrong.

As a Christian (neglect that Pastor title) we are called to offer the map to salvation, not beat people into submission with it.

As for disliked, I believe that dislike or distain is necessary when you accept anything as truth. I just want to make sure the lost are disliking the truth, that they are rejecting God, not His followers and their impassioned, sometimes ignorant interpretation of Him.

I think Hokie is looking more like a prophet all the time

Thank you for your input

[Boffman]

As I have said in other threads, I think religion has gotten to political. It seems like there are a lot of Christians more concerned with banning abortion, gay rights etc. then being a good witness for Christ.

That's another thing. Christians abortion rates are higher than those of athiests, same with divorce, and not to mention Christains represent their population in the prisons where as atheists are HUGELY underrepresented.

Who's more moral? You be the judge.

[b.spencer]

Just to warn you, this is very blunt. Also, this is how I really view Christianity, I'm not exaggerating what I think. . . . [Lots of Good Stuff]

Reps!! I so completely agree with you.

I honestly have nothing against Christians, real Christians at least. Those few who actually follow the admonitions of their founder, and accept the full consequences of their belief system. But, what do I see when I look out on the Christian world today? Do they follow the example of Christ? I look at the NT and I see great examples and words that all should live by:

"Love Your Enemies;" "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone;" "If you have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me;" "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye"

I could go on and on. But that is the Christian world anymore? Hated, Attack, Vengeance, Anger, Politics. They glory, not in their God, but in their own political ends, in the persecution of others, who are not clones of themselves. I was channel surfing yesterday and hit upon a weekly sermons teaching what? The Prodigal Son? The Sheep and the Sheep Fold? Even the Crucification? NO. This pastor spent an entire hour on the greatness of the US/Mexico Border fence, curbing illegal immigration, and voting against presidential candidates who do not support harsh boarder measures. (Aside - Where do I find passages about that in scripture??)

It's fine to believe what you want. Worship how you want. Preach it in your homes, live it in your own life. Try to convince me it is true with your words and your deeds. Unfortunately, most of their words and deeds are purely hypocritical. If the majority of people here on this board and those who live around me are a good random sample, all they will every do is push people further and further away.

[Minotaur]

I think Hokie is looking more like a prophet all the time

Negged.




j/k

[SDMuscleBuddy]

The problem isn't with religion. It is with organizations. When you have an oragaization, be it a religion, corporation, school system, or government, you have power struggles, and corruption. The bigger the organization, the more likely those in control will be, or become, corrupt. It's human nature. Those with the drive to be successful and powerful are especially susceptible to it.

[ObedEdom]

Christians abortion rates are higher than those of athiests, same with divorce, and not to mention Christains represent their population in the prisons where as atheists are HUGELY underrepresented.

Who's more moral? You be the judge.

...not only that but we have the same divorce and infidelity rates as non-Christians.

Where is the diffrence in us? Where is the power that brought Christ out of the grave? Where is the light?

[ObedEdom]

Reps!! I so completely agree with you.

I honestly have nothing against Christians, real Christians at least. Those few who actually follow the admonitions of their founder, and accept the full consequences of their belief system. But, what do I see when I look out on the Christian world today? Do they follow the example of Christ? I look at the NT and I see great examples and words that all should live by:

"Love Your Enemies;" "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone;" "If you have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me;" "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye"

I could go on and on. But that is the Christian world anymore? Hated, Attack, Vengeance, Anger, Politics. They glory, not in their God, but in their own political ends, in the persecution of others, who are not clones of themselves. I was channel surfing yesterday and hit upon a weekly sermons teaching what? The Prodigal Son? The Sheep and the Sheep Fold? Even the Crucification? NO. This pastor spent an entire hour on the greatness of the US/Mexico Border fence, curbing illegal immigration, and voting against presidential candidates who do not support harsh boarder measures. (Aside - Where do I find passages about that in scripture??)

It's fine to believe what you want. Worship how you want. Preach it in your homes, live it in your own life. Try to convince me it is true with your words and your deeds. Unfortunately, most of their words and deeds are purely hypocritical. If the majority of people here on this board and those who live around me are a good random sample, all they will every do is push people further and further away.

are you available to speak at my church?

thank you, we need to hear that

[rampagefc77]

That's another thing. Christians abortion rates are higher than those of athiests, same with divorce, and not to mention Christains represent their population in the prisons where as atheists are HUGELY underrepresented.

Who's more moral? You be the judge.

There is a difference between those who claim to be christians yet follow nothing of what is taught in the bible, and those who do.

Should a random thug from an inner city who goes to jail for an armed robbery who claims to be a christian yet has never read the bible or gone to church be considered a christian?

How is a belief system measured? Are all prisoners asked if they are religous or not? How accurate are the results? Could some fear ridicule if they claim to be atheist? Are we going by striaght numbers or percentages of these populations?

Just a few questions that come to mind.

[rampagefc77]

I could go on and on. But that is the Christian world anymore? Hated, Attack, Vengeance, Anger, Politics. They glory, not in their God, but in their own political ends, in the persecution of others, who are not clones of themselves.
.

Very true. I think this also applies to the entire population in general, not just christians or any particular religious group.

[Boffman]

eh **** this post.

[hokiebird]

dude as a pastor you should know what God teaches will ALWAYS be at odds to what the world teaches on issues such as morality especially.

I don't want to derail your thread but I am totally opposed to churches watering down the message like the reality of hell and sin just to try and boost falling church numbers.

I'd rather be disliked for what I believe than compromise my beliefs to gain the favour of mankind.

I think he is aware of that... I think he just uses a different approach that may work for some people. Heck it is worth a try especially with these stubborn Atheists on this board..lol

[ObedEdom]

Very true. I think this also applies to the entire population in general, not just christians or any particular religious group.

yes, but Christians are called to be different. I think if we would live like Christ (insert statistics from above), we would not feel inclined to do so much yelling about what we believe.

It is the goodness of God that brings men into repentance. The Holy Spirit is who convicts of sin and the need for a Savior...sometimes we don't allow Him to do His job because we are too busy "defending our stance".

The lost will argue till they are blue in the face with our arguments and theory...if we could present the world with some kind of argument based on our reaction to practical life struggles (without saying a word) we might make them wonder about the diffrence they see in us.

[Boffman]

I think he is aware of that... I think he just uses a different approach that may work for some people. Heck it is worth a try especially with these stubborn Atheists on this board..lol

New approach? Does this new approach include the Theory of Evolution?

Because otherwise you won't get anywhere.

[hokiebird]

That's another thing. Christians abortion rates are higher than those of athiests, same with divorce, and not to mention Christains represent their population in the prisons where as atheists are HUGELY underrepresented.

Who's more moral? You be the judge.

YOu have a great point. It rains on the righteous and the unrighteous...Our Righteousness is of filthy rags, it is only because of the blood of Christ can we stand and proclaim that we are his and we belong to him. Christians and no-Christans alike all make mistakes in their life and all have sinned and fallen. That being said neither you or me can stand back and judge God and his character based on how we see other act or whatever their sin or sins may be. God never changes and we do. I think "anyone is capable of anything" wrong or right. OYu are right though Christians need to be a light and let their light shine before all men that they may see the good works and glorify God, which is in heaven. We all can go through this life finding something wrong with the church, somethinng wrong with people, and something wrong with the actions of people, but one thing is for sure "our" God changes not! It is time that the redeemed of the Lord say so with their testimony and their life.

[joelz54_99]

Whats hard with the American Church is that it is becoming too mainstream with US "worldly people". Its hard to ignore or resist everything that the bible stands against seeing that it is 2k years old. Times are changing.

[caj]

YOu have a great point. It rains on the righteous and the unrighteous...Our Righteousness is of filthy rags, it is only because of the blood of Christ can we stand and proclaim that we are his and we belong to him. Christians and no-Christans alike all make mistakes in their life and all have sinned and fallen. That being said neither you or me can stand back and judge God and his character based on how we see other act or whatever their sin or sins may be. God never changes and we do. I think "anyone is capable of anything" wrong or right. OYu are right though Christians need to be a light and let their light shine before all men that they may see the good works and glorify God, which is in heaven. We all can go through this life finding something wrong with the church, somethinng wrong with people, and something wrong with the actions of people, but one thing is for sure "our" God changes not! It is time that the redeemed of the Lord say so with their testimony and their life.

Excellent post. Agree with you completely.

[hokiebird]

New approach? Does this new approach include the Theory of Evolution?

Because otherwise you won't get anywhere.

Yes, a new approach. I do not think it wil include any theory though. What i meant was he is more laid back and patient, as where I am not. I thnk God uses people in different ways to accomplish things. Not every minister is going to minister the same. He seems to be more patient than I am.. so I can see now I need to work on that area little...lol

[Boffman]

Yes, a new approach. I do not think it wil include any theory though. What i meant was he is more laid back and patient, as where I am not. I thnk God uses people in different ways to accomplish things. Not every minister is going to minister the same. He seems to be more patient than I am.. so I can see now I need to work on that area little...lol

Wait if god can use people doesn't that infringe on their free-will?

[ObedEdom]

Yes, a new approach. I do not think it wil include any theory though. What i meant was he is more laid back and patient, as where I am not. I thnk God uses people in different ways to accomplish things. Not every minister is going to minister the same. He seems to be more patient than I am.. so I can see now I need to work on that area little...lol

No theories in my theology
I'm actually very impatient (ask my wife

I just care more about the sinner that proving I'm right (that is not aimed at you, Hokie...it's aimed at any follower of Christ that uses smash-mouth evangelistic phrases instead of cleaning up their own life and being Jesus with skin on)

"people don't care what you believe, until they believe that you care"

I care and I want to know what I can do better to pastor those that doubt this message of hope and redemption for anyone who believes are recieves the gift of Christ

[b.spencer]

Very true. I think this also applies to the entire population in general, not just christians or any particular religious group.

Perhaps.

But for Christian people who claim to reject all this, to be better than this -- to the point of self-righteousness if not arrogance in my eyes -- to be going about it with the sheer gusto that they are just leaves me shaking my head in disgust.

Jesus that "By their fruits, ye shall know them." I will know whether the Christian church is good by its fruits, it adherents. To the outsider, goodness or badness of the doctrines are only seen through viewing the examples of the people who claim to live them. And I have to say, after meeting many tens of thousands in my time, the vast majority reflect very badly on their organizations and their Master.

-----

Let me give you an example of what I mean and what I see when I look at Christianity. I have always protected this woman's identity when I have told this story. You'll see why.

I was working in a shipping warehouse as a summer job while I was in college. One day, one of shift supervisors -- a single middle aged woman with a teen daughter, which was all i really knew about her at the time -- asked me if I would be able to come to her apartment on Saturday afternoon to help her move to her new home. I told her sure, assuming that she was asking some of the men around the place to help her make quick work of it.

Saturday came, and I arrived at the apartment at the appointed time, to find I was the only person there. She saw the confusion and told me the following story (roughly quoted as I remember it):

"I'm very sorry if you feel a bit misled. I just don't trust any of the other men around [our work place]. I've watched you, and you are an honorable man. So, I think I can tell you this, as long as you do not tell anyone else. Years ago, I went to a very nice Church, the one my daughter was born into. Everything was great until my husband [name] committed suicide. He was very depressed, and nothing we ever tried could bring him out of it. He's been gone for 15 years now. The pastor of the church, in counseling afterward, basically said that I allowed my husband to die and that he's in hell now because of me. [I could see the anger and sadness in her still on thinking about it.]

So, I went searching for a new Church. I go to [a certain Evangelical Baptist Church] now. I would have asked them to help me, but they wouldn't do something like this. And there are some things here I cannot let them see. I grew up in a Mormon family, and I still have some of the things from my parents and grandparents in my storage. I never really believed in any of it. I've been Baptist for longer than you've been alive. But, just knowing that my dead parents were Mormon would be enough for them to throw me out of my church. So, please don't tell anyone, will you?"

------

I never have told this except in these terms.

But, what does it say about Christians when this widowed woman with a fatherless daughter can get no help from her own church of over a dozen years with several thousand in weekly attendance, if the number of cars in the parking lot on Sunday was any indication, to help her move 6 blocks? When they would literally disown and toss her and her daughter out on their ears because of her parents religious beliefs? I watched this church and its members throw massive revivals and parade new converts, but they never followed James simple admonition about pure religion. And here I was, an ex-Christian, an apostate pariah, a non believer, who helped this poor woman it not out of fear or commandment of God, but because it's just the right way to treat a person in need and I was there.

Who, in the words of Jesus, has the mote and who has the beam?

[hokiebird]

Wait if god can use people doesn't that infringe on their free-will?

Only if that person rejects the leadership and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Take me for example: I have a free-will because that is how God made all of us... so I freely accept his Word in my heart and choose to convey it as an instrument because I know the power it has to change, if only accepted. God never forces me to do anything, I always have a choice in the matter. So no it does not infringe on anybody and their freewill. I know what you are thinking now maybe, well it is being forced and the hearer does not wish to hear it right?? Well for years many ministered to me when I made the choice not to listen, they spoke it I listened and it fell on rocky ground. So therefor even in that case it did not infringe on my free-will because I had a choice in whether to listen to it or not.. or for that matter obey it or not.