EC makes me tired and I cant focus!

[gizzler]

I am now on an EC stack. 25mg E 200 C, 3x a day. Unfortuanely, I feel tired as hell and also cant seem to focus at all since I started!! Anyone else respond to it this way?

I also find it difficult to do cardio. I get really tired really fast. Im considering cutting out the cardio all together and just doing weight training 3x a week.

So my question, would I see better results doing cardio or doing EC no cardio?

Thanks in advance.

(ps: profile pic is from a year ago. I am now 190 lbs from a massive bulk)

[aseng]

I was tired too on EC, at times unfocused too, but not all the time. Cardio is a tad bit easier for me though. My legs want to give out before I'm actually tired.

[gizzler]

yeah, I wonder if I should only take 2 doses....idk. I guess it is still the first week so maybe the effects will wear off

[garnerman]

probably not drinking enough water. When are you taking your EC, if you take it close to meal time it can give you hyperglycemia (which will make you tired).

I take at least an hour AFTER meals.

[gizzler]

probably not drinking enough water. When are you taking your EC, if you take it close to meal time it can give you hyperglycemia (which will make you tired).

I take at least an hour AFTER meals.

This is probably whats going on!! Thanks. Other advice is still welcome!!!!

[aseng]

Makes sense, I was tired while drinking 1 gallon a day, lately it's been up to 2 gallons a day and I'm feeling normal.

[ny58]

maybe ur body just doesnt react to the EC well. . i would stop it and do the cardio. . but thats just me. . i try and listen to my body. . u cant go wrong with good old cardio and diet, but u never know what an EC stack is really doing to ur body. .or if u want to keep trying it maybe lower the doses a bit and see if it helps . .do u feel anxiety or anything going on with ur heart rate?

[rsm688]

Wow....I get the complete opposite...I am focused like a laser and have energy to burn on EC.....I currently take 16mg/200mg....I was losing too much muscle when taking 24mg....16 is ideal for me. I am worried about my energy levels when I stop taking them in a month...

same here. what kind of ephedrine are you taking? i feel like im on adderrall or something when im on my e/c stack. im totally focused and very very energetic.

[gizzler]

I have been using Primatine (E HCl) but switching to bronkaid tomorrow (E sulfate).

[strawser9]

probably not drinking enough water. When are you taking your EC, if you take it close to meal time it can give you hyperglycemia (which will make you tired).

I take at least an hour AFTER meals.

huh?

nice bs answer.

[terracotta]

A couple things..

After the initial phase, the EC stack won't be very stimulating. After a month on it, I could take it, then fall asleep.

The crash off of EC is very bad, so between doses you can get exhausted.

At 3 doses a day, it may be interfering with sleep. This will further counteract the stimulant effect. So try cutting down to 2 doses per day and see if that helps.

If cutting to 2 doses doesn't help, ask yourself if it is worth it to you to keep taking it.

[gizzler]

A couple things..

After the initial phase, the EC stack won't be very stimulating. After a month on it, I could take it, then fall asleep.

The crash off of EC is very bad, so between doses you can get exhausted.

At 3 doses a day, it may be interfering with sleep. This will further counteract the stimulant effect. So try cutting down to 2 doses per day and see if that helps.

If cutting to 2 doses doesn't help, ask yourself if it is worth it to you to keep taking it.

Thank you! This is helpful. I will try the 2x a day, and also up my water intake. Also thanks to everyone who also gave advice. I will rep you guys shortly!

[VernonWellsFargo]

yo where yall getting your ehphedrine? pm

[Vaporize]

For the love of god why are you cutting at 165 6'1. Bulk man... bulk.

[medic707]

probably not drinking enough water. When are you taking your EC, if you take it close to meal time it can give you hyperglycemia (which will make you tired).

I take at least an hour AFTER meals.

Do you have the patho/phys behind this im curious, i cant come up with anything off the top of my head that would cause this stack to increase your bg levels, interesting make me aware, im at work tomorrow so i think im going take a couple stacks and try and monitor my sugar through out the day ...

Same thing happens to me but i just figured its was a paradoxical effect, I can feel it speed up my heart a bit and sometime make me flushed but i start yawning and get sleepy, same thing with any caffeinated drink or other stim. But other drugs have reverse affects on me too so i dont know.

Anyways if you feel better not taking it dont take it and just do a little more work in the gym.As others have already said... If anything you take isnt giving you the desired effect you want and is interfering with your workouts (or anything in life), its time to look for another solution.

[mkit8971]

For the love of god why are you cutting at 165 6'1. Bulk man... bulk.

I second that. Why exactly are you cutting?

[garnerman]

Do you have the patho/phys behind this im curious, i cant come up with anything off the top of my head that would cause this stack to increase your bg levels, interesting make me aware, im at work tomorrow so i think im going take a couple stacks and try and monitor my sugar through out the day ...

Same thing happens to me but i just figured its was a paradoxical effect, I can feel it speed up my heart a bit and sometime make me flushed but i start yawning and get sleepy, same thing with any caffeinated drink or other stim. But other drugs have reverse affects on me too so i dont know.

Anyways if you feel better not taking it dont take it and just do a little more work in the gym.As others have already said... If anything you take isnt giving you the desired effect you want and is interfering with your workouts (or anything in life), its time to look for another solution.

caffeine, ephedrine (as well as the norepinephrine it releases) and dehydration all can acutely raise blood glucose. Or so I have read in various places and forums.

as far as the metabolic pathways??

i did pull these studies from pubmed realting to food timing and caffeine ingestion. My pubmed skills are not the best, so keep that in mind.

J Nutr. 2006 May;136(5):1276-80. Links
The glucose intolerance induced by caffeinated coffee ingestion is less pronounced than that due to alkaloid caffeine in men.Battram DS, Arthur R, Weekes A, Graham TE.
Department of Human Health and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario, Canada N1G 2W1. dbattram@uoguelph.ca

Although acute alkaloid caffeine (CAF) ingestion results in an impaired glucose tolerance, chronic coffee (RCOF) ingestion decreases the risk of developing type 2 diabetes. This study examines the hypothesis that CAF ingestion impairs glucose tolerance to a greater extent than RCOF and that the ingestion of decaffeinated coffee (DECAF) results in a positive effect. Eleven healthy males underwent 4 double-blinded randomized trials. Each trial included the ingestion of either: 1) CAF in capsule form (4.45 mg/kg body weight), 2) RCOF (4.45 mg/kg body weight caffeine), 3) dextrose (placebo, PL) in capsule form, or 4) DECAF (equal in volume to the RCOF trial), followed 1-h later by a 2-h oral glucose tolerance test. Blood samples were collected at baseline (-30), 0 (time of treatment ingestion), 60 (initiation of oral glucose tolerance test), 75, 90, 120, 150, and 180 min. Area under the curve for glucose and insulin were higher (P < or = 0.05) following CAF than both PL and DECAF and, although a similar trend (P = 0.07) was observed following RCOF compared with DECAF, the effect was less pronounced. Interestingly, DECAF resulted in a 50% lower glucose response (P < or = 0.05) than PL, suggesting that the effects of PL and DECAF on glucose tolerance are not the same. These findings suggest that the effects of CAF and RCOF are not identical and may provide a partial explanation as to why acute CAF ingestion impairs glucose tolerance while chronic RCOF ingestion protects against type 2 diabetes.


dehydration

1: Eur J Clin Nutr. 2003 Dec;57 Suppl 2:S69-74. Links
Effects of changes in hydration on protein, glucose and lipid metabolism in man: impact on health.Keller U, Szinnai G, Bilz S, Berneis K.
Division of Endocrinology, Diabetology and Clinical Nutrition, Basel, Switzerland. ukeller@uhbs.ch

Alterations of cell volume induced by changes of extracellular osmolality have been reported to regulate intracellular metabolic pathways. Hypo-osmotic cell swelling counteracts proteolysis and glycogen breakdown in the liver, whereas hyperosmotic cell shrinkage promotes protein breakdown, glycolysis and glycogenolysis. To investigate the effect of acute changes of extracellular osmolality on whole-body protein, glucose and lipid metabolism in vivo, we studied 10 male subjects during three conditions: (i) hyperosmolality was induced by fluid restriction and intravenous infusion of hypertonic NaCl (2-5%, wt/vol) during 17 h; (ii) hypo-osmolality was produced by intravenous administration of desmopressin, liberal water drinking and infusion of hypotonic saline (0.4%); and (iii) the iso-osmolality study comprised oral water intake ad libitum. Plasma osmolality increased from 285+/-1 to 296+/-1 mosm/kg (P<0.001 during hyperosmolality, and decreased from 286+/-1 to 265+/-1 mosm/kg during hypo-osmolality (P<0.001). Total body leucine flux ([1-(13)C]leucine infusion technique), reflecting whole-body protein breakdown, as well as whole-body leucine oxidation rate (irreversible loss of amino acids) decreased significantly during hypo-osmolality. The glucose metabolic clearance rate during hyperinsulinaemic-euglycemic clamping increased significantly less during hypo-osmolality than iso-osmolality, indicating diminished peripheral insulin sensitivity. Glycerol turnover (2-[(13)C]glycerol infusion technique), reflecting whole-body lipolysis, increased significantly during hypo-osmolar conditions. The results demonstrate that the metabolic adaptation to acute hypo-osmolality resembles that of acute fasting, that is, it results in protein sparing associated with increased lipolysis, ketogenesis and lipid oxidation and impaired insulin sensitivity of glucose metabolism.

1: Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Mar;11(1):72-83.Links
Blood glucose responses to carbohydrate feeding prior to exercise in the heat: effects of hypohydration and rehydration.Echegaray M, Armstrong LE, Maresh CM, Riebe D, Kenefick RW, Castellani JW, Kavouras S, Casa D.
Department of Physiology & Neurobiology, The University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06269, USA.

This study assessed the plasma glucose (PG) and hormonal responses to carbohydrate ingestion, prior to exercise in the heat, in a hypohydrated state versus partial rehydration with intravenous solutions. On separate days, 8 subjects (21.0 +/- 1.8 years; 57.3 +/- 3.7 ml x kg(-1) x min(-1)) exercised at 50% VO2max in a 33 degree C environment until a 4% body weight loss was achieved. Following this, subjects were rehydrated (25 ml x kg(-1)) with either: 0.45% IV saline (45IV), 0.9% IV saline (9IV), or no fluid (NF). Subjects then ingested 1 g x kg(-1) of carbohydrate and underwent an exercise test (treadmill walking, 50% VO2max, 36 degrees C) for up to 90 min. Compared to pre-exercise level (294 mg x dl(-1)), PG increased significantly (>124 mg x dl(-1)) at 15 min of the exercise test in all trials and remained significantly elevated for 75 min in NF, 30 min more than in the 2 rehydration trials. Although serum Insulin increased significantly at 15 min of exercise in the 45IV trial (7.2 +/- 1.2 vs. 23.7 +/- 4.7 mIU x ml(-1)), no significant differences between trials were observed. Peak plasma norepinephrine was significantly higher in NF (640 +/- 66 pg x ml(-1)) compared to the 45IV and 9IV trials (472 +/- 55 and 474 +/- 52 pg x ml(-1), respectively). In conclusion, ingestion of a small solid carbohydrate load prior to exercise in the 4% hypohydration level resulted in prolonged high PG concentration compared to partial IV rehydration.

[strawser9]

caffeine, ephedrine (as well as the norepinephrine it releases) and dehydration all can acutely raise blood glucose. Or so I have read in various places and forums.

...i think you meant blood pressure!
E/C will have no effect on your blood sugar, but can have tremendous impact on BP.

[garnerman]

...i think you meant blood pressure!
E/C will have no effect on your blood sugar, but can have tremendous impact on BP.

No I meant blood sugar

Metabolism. 1991 Mar;40(3):323-9. Links
Thermogenic synergism between ephedrine and caffeine in healthy volunteers: a double-blind, placebo-controlled study.Astrup A, Toubro S, Cannon S, Hein P, Madsen J.
Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Copenhagen, Denmark.

Animal and human studies have suggested a thermogenic synergism between ephedrine (E), a beta-agonist, and caffeine (C), an adenosine antagonist, which may be suitable for the treatment of obesity. To study this phenomenon, the thermogenic effect of single doses of oral placebo, E 10 mg, E 20 mg, C 100 mg, and C 200 mg were compared with the effects of three different combinations of E + C, 10 mg/200 mg, 20 mg/100 mg, and 20 mg/200 mg, measured by indirect calorimetry in six healthy, lean subjects. The thermogenic effect after E + C 20 mg/200 mg was larger than that of any of the other combinations. In this dose ratio, ephedrine and caffeine exerted a supra-additive synergism, whereas the thermogenic effects of the other two combinations were only additive. The 3-hour postintake increase in systolic blood pressure after all three combinations averaged 5 to 7 mm Hg more than placebo (P less than .01), which exceeded the predicted additive effect fivefold to sevenfold. Diastolic blood pressure was not increased by E + C 20 mg/200 mg, whereas the other two combinations increased it by approximately 4 mm Hg more than placebo. E + C 20 mg/100 mg and 20 mg/200 mg increased heart rate more than placebo, while E + C 10 mg/200 mg had no effect on heart rate. As expected, all combinations increased plasma glucose, insulin, and C-peptide from their ephedrine content. No significant effects of the combinations were found on plasma lactate, glycerol, nonesterified fatty acids (NEFA), triglyceride, potassium, or sodium.(

[garnerman]

Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2004 Aug;42(8):442-8.Links
Comparison of the acute pharmacodynamic responses after single doses of ephedrine or sibutramine in healthy, overweight volunteers.Persky AM, Ng C, Song MH, Lancaster ME, Balderson DE, Paulik MA, Brouwer KL.
Division of Drug Delivery and Disposition, School of Pharmacy, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7360, USA.

OBJECTIVE: With an increase in the incidence of obesity, tremendous effort has been devoted to the development of weight loss agents and the prospective surrogate markers of both a product's efficacy and safety. The objective of the present study was to compare the pharmacodynamic responses of ephedrine and sibutramine using surrogate markers of weight loss potential and potential adverse events. DESIGN AND SUBJECTS: The study was designed as a 5-way, randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial with 3 single doses of ephedrine sulfate (0.25, 0.5 and 1 mg x kg(-1)) followed by an open-labeled sibutramine (10 mg) treatment. Healthy, mildly overweight (BMI = 25) subjects were administered the respective treatment and pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic measurements (body surface temperature, resting metabolic rate, blood pressure, heart rate, glucose, glycerol, nonesterified fatty acids, triglycerides) were obtained for 8 hours post dose and for an additional 4 measurements during the sibutramine treatment period. RESULTS: Sibutramine treatment significantly increased resting metabolic rate compared to the placebo condition. Ephedrine significantly increased heart rate, systolic blood pressure and glucose but did not significantly affect other measurements. CONCLUSION: Both sibutramine and ephedrine have been shown to have weight loss potential, however, they elicit different metabolic and biochemical responses after a single dose. The nontherapeutic responses from these types of compounds may serve as a screening tool for the development of agents in the treatment of obesity.








I want to say clearly that I think that timing of EC stack (as compared to food intake), level and timing of activity as well as hydration level will affect this. I was just trying to explain why they might be experiencing tiredness, it could be some totally different reason.

[strawser9]

Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2004 Aug;42(8):442-8.Links
Comparison of the acute pharmacodynamic responses after single doses of ephedrine or sibutramine in healthy, overweight volunteers.Persky AM, Ng C, Song MH, Lancaster ME, Balderson DE, Paulik MA, Brouwer KL.
Division of Drug Delivery and Disposition, School of Pharmacy, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7360, USA.

OBJECTIVE: With an increase in the incidence of obesity, tremendous effort has been devoted to the development of weight loss agents and the prospective surrogate markers of both a product's efficacy and safety. The objective of the present study was to compare the pharmacodynamic responses of ephedrine and sibutramine using surrogate markers of weight loss potential and potential adverse events. DESIGN AND SUBJECTS: The study was designed as a 5-way, randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial with 3 single doses of ephedrine sulfate (0.25, 0.5 and 1 mg x kg(-1)) followed by an open-labeled sibutramine (10 mg) treatment. Healthy, mildly overweight (BMI = 25) subjects were administered the respective treatment and pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic measurements (body surface temperature, resting metabolic rate, blood pressure, heart rate, glucose, glycerol, nonesterified fatty acids, triglycerides) were obtained for 8 hours post dose and for an additional 4 measurements during the sibutramine treatment period. RESULTS: Sibutramine treatment significantly increased resting metabolic rate compared to the placebo condition. Ephedrine significantly increased heart rate, systolic blood pressure and glucose but did not significantly affect other measurements. CONCLUSION: Both sibutramine and ephedrine have been shown to have weight loss potential, however, they elicit different metabolic and biochemical responses after a single dose. The nontherapeutic responses from these types of compounds may serve as a screening tool for the development of agents in the treatment of obesity.








I want to say clearly that I think that timing of EC stack (as compared to food intake), level and timing of activity as well as hydration level will affect this. I was just trying to explain why they might be experiencing tiredness, it could be some totally different reason.

eating has an effect on blood sugar...not ephedrine. taking ephedrine while eating will lessen the effects of the stimulant, its not going to increase blood sugar.

[terracotta]

Ephedrine can cause hyperglycemia. In fact, it says in a few places "it can be used to treat hypoglycemia" because of this. Which is funny because I get hypoglycemic with greater frequency while on ephedrine. I think the increase in BMR causes me to use up the calories faster, bringing on hypoglycemia faster personally.

But that isn't why it makes most people tired. It is usually fatigue from overstimulation for a long period of time (eg. adrenal fatigue).

[garnerman]

eating has an effect on blood sugar...not ephedrine. taking ephedrine while eating will lessen the effects of the stimulant, its not going to increase blood sugar.

stimulants do affect blood sugar, if you even read the studies I posted you would realize this. They also can affect insulin secretion, insulin sensitivity and glucose uptake.

here is a another study

Short-term metabolic and hemodynamic effects of ephedra and guarana combinations.Haller CA, Jacob P, Benowitz NL.
Department of Medicine, Division of Clinical Pharmacology, University of California, San Francisco, CA 94143, USA. dchaller@worldnet.att.net

OBJECTIVE: Serious adverse health events have been reported with the use of dietary supplements containing ephedra and guarana. We sought to determine whether repeated dosing and multi-ingredient formulations contribute to the adverse effects of these supplements. METHODS: In this study, 16 healthy adults (8 women) took 2 doses each of ephedra-guarana alone, Xenadrine RFA, a multicomponent dietary supplement containing 25 mg ephedra alkaloids and 200 mg caffeine, or placebo 5 hours apart in a randomized, double-blind, 3-arm crossover study. RESULTS: Peak plasma ephedrine levels averaged 130 to 140 ng/mL. Compared with placebo, Xenadrine and ephedra-guarana significantly increased heart rate (maximum increase, 9.4 +/- 8.6 beats/min; P = .002), blood pressure (maximum increase in systolic and diastolic pressure, 11.5 +/- 10.7 mm Hg and 7.3 +/- 7.4 mm Hg, respectively; P = .015), postprandial glucose concentration (maximum change, 41.0 +/- 18.8 mg/dL; P < .0001), and insulin concentration (maximum change, 41.2 +/- 47.8 microIU/mL; P = .005). Serum potassium concentrations were significantly decreased by both treatments. Hemodynamic and metabolic changes were observed after both the first and second doses. However, plasma free fatty acid concentrations increased after the first dose only. Xenadrine RFA produced higher increases in glucose concentration than ephedra-guarana, but no other pharmacodynamic differences between the treatments were found. CONCLUSIONS: Consumption of 2 doses of ephedra and guarana supplements, per supplement label recommendations, results in persistent increases in heart rate and blood pressure and unfavorable actions on glucose and potassium homeostasis. Such effects could be detrimental in persons with hypertension, atherosclerosis, or glucose intolerance, conditions that are strongly associated with obesity.



I am not bashing ephedrine, I personally love it. But it can cause hyperglycemia under some conditions. And that is the most likely cause of these peoples tiredness.

[terracotta]

I am not bashing ephedrine, I personally love it. But it can cause hyperglycemia under some conditions. And that is the most likely cause of these peoples tiredness.

On this thought, it really depends whether they get the symptom from the start (which implies a blood sugar issue or possibly from the dietary restriction as a result of the anorectic effect), or over time (which implies an adrenal issue).

[garnerman]

On this thought, it really depends whether they get the symptom from the start (which implies a blood sugar issue), or over time (which implies an adrenal issue).

these people are getting it from the start. And the fact that they get MORE tired when they take it I would guess leans heavily towards hyperglycemia. I am betting that meal timing/size is a big part of it, but dehydration may be as well.

[terracotta]

these people are getting it from the start. And the fact that they get MORE tired when they take it I would guess leans heavily towards hyperglycemia. I am betting that meal timing/size is a big part of it, but dehydration may be as well.

Yes, you are probably right in your analysis.

[MagicB]

these people are getting it from the start. And the fact that they get MORE tired when they take it I would guess leans heavily towards hyperglycemia. I am betting that meal timing/size is a big part of it, but dehydration may be as well.

Garnerman,
Thanks for all the helpful information.
Everytime i've tried taking ephedrine (or any kind of stimulant) to stay up for work i get the crash sendrome right off the bat.

So your saying ephedrine induces a hyperglycemic response?
And if it does, what can one do to counter the'se symptoms?
more complex carbs or simple carbs..ext?

Thanks in advance

[mridgley]

This is probably whats going on!! Thanks. Other advice is still welcome!!!!

Advice - stop taking that crap - you will only loose water weight. The EC stack does not work and it is total sh!t on your body.

[garnerman]

Garnerman,
Thanks for all the helpful information.
Everytime i've tried taking ephedrine (or any kind of stimulant) to stay up for work i get the crash sendrome right off the bat.

So your saying ephedrine induces a hyperglycemic response?
And if it does, what can one do to counter the'se symptoms?
more complex carbs or simple carbs..ext?

Thanks in advance

when are you taking your EC stack?

could you give an example of the meals prior and after?

I personally take my stack about 90-120 minutes after eating and at least 60 but closer to 90 minutes prior to any meals.

[MagicB]

when are you taking your EC stack?

could you give an example of the meals prior and after?

I'm taking the Stimerex-ES. I've never tried the EC stack.
I don't don't use it for weight loss. Just an attempt for extra energry.

I normally take one(25mg of Ephedra) right after a meal or with a meal.
Could this be the problem?

I guess the food hasn't taken it's course to energy yet.