Final Study Kre-Alkalyn Vs. Creatine Monohydrate

[COZ999]

I don't think he is saying that KA is placebo (after all its 98% CrM), more like there is no proof that it is better than CrM.

well for some it is and some it isnt....no harm in trying it. This AF dentist I know swears by it....others say ehh ill take Mono. Its all in eyes of the beholder

[sixthsense]

I understand what you have been saying and agree.

On a side note, I would like to know your thoughts on what Tallon says in the following

"...we found KA to be a little over 98% pure creatine mono, that means less that 30mg of available buffer in a 1.5 g serving. If you believe that dose of buffers can significantly change stomach acid all the way to pH 12 (as in their claims) I suggest you try reading some basic organic chemistry with regards to titration of acid and base compounds.You could calculate the buffering effect without even running any lab tests using the henderson-hasselbach equation.. It depends on you view of definitive."

I already know that you guys have won your case against him (he didn't show)so saying that is not going to sway me. Regardless of you winning the case, I think he brought up a valid question and would like to here a response from anyone from AEEFX concerning the bolded above.

I acutally like the buffering idea and better absorption so its not like I'm totally anti KA.

True...we won our case against Tallon, as his studies never even happened. But in regards to what is bolded, that is because he is going off the patent, which claims that KA is buffered using baking soda or soda ash. Now, it this were true, he would be right, because it would take many spoonfuls of BS or SA to raise PH to any degree and it would likely only reach about 8-10. However, the patent does NOT reflect how KA is truly made, as this occurs using a specific chemical "reacted" with the creatine as it is manufactured. It take very little of this chemical to produce a PH level of 12-14...so, Tallon's theory goes out the window in terms of how KA is truly made.

(Thanks for being so cool/respectful...rare around here)

[I OuTsiDeR I]

True...we won our case against Tallon, as his studies never even happened. But in regards to what is bolded, that is because he is going off the patent, which claims that KA is buffered using baking soda or soda ash. Now, it this were true, he would be right, because it would take many spoonfuls of BS or SA to raise PH to any degree and it would likely only reach about 8-10. However, the patent does NOT reflect how KA is truly made, as this occurs using a specific chemical "reacted" with the creatine as it is manufactured. It take very little of this chemical to produce a PH level of 12-14...so, Tallon's theory goes out the window in terms of how KA is truly made.

(Thanks for being so cool/respectful...rare around here)

I want to throw something out there as I know that KA always gets thrown under the bus.

I've never really looked in depth in KA but its purpose if I am correct is for better absorption and solubility.

Now comparing this situation with DAA. DAA is said to have solubility issues, so Patrick Arnold made Testforce which in essence makes DAA more soluble (much like KA to creatine).

DAA is dirt cheap compared to Testforce. Much like mono compared to KA, however PA doesn't get half the flack that KA producers have gotten.

Now did I just make a comparison that doesn't really relate to each other? Or if it does make sense, do people hate KA more for their marketing tactics and how some of the reps conduct themselves, or does everyone just follow what everyone else says and just joins the party?

Thoughts from anyone?

[COZ999]

I want to throw something out there as I know that KA always gets thrown under the bus.

I've never really looked in depth in KA but its purpose if I am correct is for better absorption and solubility.

Now comparing this situation with DAA. DAA is said to have solubility issues, so Patrick Arnold made Testforce which in essence makes DAA more soluble (much like KA to creatine).

DAA is dirt cheap compared to Testforce. Much like mono compared to KA, however PA doesn't get half the flack that KA producers have gotten.

Now did I just make a comparison that doesn't really relate to each other? Or if it does make sense, do people hate KA more for their marketing tactics and how some of the reps conduct themselves, or does everyone just follow what everyone else says and just joins the party?

Thoughts from anyone?

well we are hooligans but on a real note, people seriously spew all this hatred toward AAEFX and to be honest it sounds alot like jealousy esp since time and time again we have proved no Baking Soda or Soda ash

[RichKnapp]

I want to throw something out there as I know that KA always gets thrown under the bus.

I've never really looked in depth in KA but its purpose if I am correct is for better absorption and solubility.

Now comparing this situation with DAA. DAA is said to have solubility issues, so Patrick Arnold made Testforce which in essence makes DAA more soluble (much like KA to creatine).

DAA is dirt cheap compared to Testforce. Much like mono compared to KA, however PA doesn't get half the flack that KA producers have gotten.

Now did I just make a comparison that doesn't really relate to each other? Or if it does make sense, do people hate KA more for their marketing tactics and how some of the reps conduct themselves, or does everyone just follow what everyone else says and just joins the party?

Thoughts from anyone?

For me this is the ONLY bbing site out of all the ones I'm on, that as soon as I even mention any AAEFX supplement I get flamed like a red headed step child. Figure that one out. I always try not to seam pushy and just lay the info out for consideration. Its up to them if they want to use the info, research it or try the product. I just let people know the results I have had on them.

[I OuTsiDeR I]

well we are hooligans but on a real note, people seriously spew all this hatred toward AAEFX and to be honest it sounds alot like jealousy esp since time and time again we have proved no Baking Soda or Soda ash

Can you link me to where you guys proved that its not baking soda or Soda ash?

I can see how their might be jealousy from other competitors. All the gurus here Androgenic, Bane , Sldge, BK all have said that you can just add baking soda to CrM and save money.

Who to believe

[I OuTsiDeR I]

For me this is the ONLY bbing site out of all the ones I'm on, that as soon as I even mention any AAEFX supplement I get flamed like a red headed step child. Figure that one out. I always try not to seam pushy and just lay the info out for consideration. Its up to them if they want to use the info, research it or try the product. I just let people know the results I have had on them.

There is a certain culture here on the forum and unless you have been on here enough to know it, people don't like reps coming in and supposedly "pimping" their product (yes I know it seems odd as this is what a rep is suppose to do).

So what is a rep to do? We all know you believe in your products and thats cool. As a consumer on here everyone on here is trying to sell us something. The reps that stand out and seem trust worthy are ones that not only promote their brand but also other brands and products that they have used and like or believe are of quality (formulations wise). They also help with tips in training, nutrition, science behind some ingredients etc.

However just plugging in your brand and telling a good story about your life in almost every thread you enter, people will look at you as just a company shill/pimp who is just trying to get sales and doesn't really care about the customer (even though this may not be true thats how people view it on here).

Then you just have people who are good bros with each other and follow each others lead.

Its hard to be a rep but to be a good one you gotta know how things work and it helps if you are good bros with some of the other different company reps (sad but true). However you gotta be careful because if you back the wrong company (ie. formulations suck and company looks shady) you will make your situation worse.

[sixthsense]

There is a certain culture here on the forum and unless you have been on here enough to know it, people don't like reps coming in and supposedly "pimping" their product (yes I know it seems odd as this is what a rep is suppose to do).

So what is a rep to do? We all know you believe in your products and thats cool. As a consumer on here everyone on here is trying to sell us something. The reps that stand out and seem trust worthy are ones that not only promote their brand but also other brands and products that they have used and like or believe are of quality (formulations wise). They also help with tips in training, nutrition, science behind some ingredients etc.

However just plugging in your brand and telling a good story about your life in almost every thread you enter, people will look at you as just a company shill/pimp who is just trying to get sales and doesn't really care about the customer (even though this may not be true thats how people view it on here).

Then you just have people who are good bros with each other and follow each others lead.

Its hard to be a rep but to be a good one you gotta know how things work and it helps if you are good bros with some of the other reps (sad but true).

All I can say about AAEFX reps is they are very passionate because they USE and BELIEVE in the products. And they are not just "some dudes on the boards." The majority are top competitors, several are pros, and they don't only spout off about supplements. They can also quite often be found in the training forums giving assistance without mentioning a single word about EFX. I personally "hand-picked" each guy on my rep team and I can tell you that every one of them are passionate about helping others and have a ton of integrity.

[I OuTsiDeR I]

All I can say about AAEFX reps is they are very passionate because they USE and BELIEVE in the products. And they are not just "some dudes on the boards." The majority are top competitors, several are pros, and they don't only spout off about supplements. They can also quite often be found in the training forums giving assistance without mentioning a single word about EFX. I personally "hand-picked" each guy on my rep team and I can tell you that every one of them are passionate about helping others and have a ton of integrity.

I don't doubt that, was just pointing out how things are on here. Although it maybe sad it is what it is.

If you only push your product, automatically people will not like you and its not gonna matter if they are top competitors or pros. They can be the nicest most honest people on earth and people won't care at least in the supp section.

You will get eaten alive especially if you don't follow the forum culture, your team has already experienced this. Not saying its fair but thats how it is on here especially in the supp section.

[sixthsense]

I don't doubt that, was just pointing out how things are on here. Although it maybe sad it is what it is.

If you only push your product, automatically people will not like you and its not gonna matter if they are top competitors or pros. They can be the nicest most honest people on earth and people won't care at least in the supp section.

You will get eaten alive especially if you don't follow the forum culture, your team has already experienced this. Not saying its fair but thats how it is on here especially in the supp section.

Actually it is only HERE that the forum culture is like this. On most other boards people are much more friendly and accomodating of reps, and look to them for help and advice...and certainly do not bash and gang up.

That said...since my team has started posting here, EFX's ranking has gone up 20+ places and the team receives PM's daily asking them more questions and thanking them for their help. Thus, we only worry about those who are mature, and understand we are here to not only make people aware of EFX products, but also to help in any way we can.

[NO HYPE]

I see someone deleted my response to you huh? Was it you? Do you have that sort of "power?"

If I did have that ability [which I do not], I wouldn't bother deleting your posts, as I can put them to shame with science-based evidence. Same with your laughable stance on glutamine.

I think that the fact that you like Pub Med...who doesn't??...makes you smarter than the rest. Highly untrue.

Where did I ever insinuate that I was "smarter than the rest"? *silence* There is a difference between liking Pubmed and peer-reviewed journals, and actually comprehending the data within.

Creatine is only as good as what your body will ABSORB! My body (and many others') does not properly/efficiently absorb straight CM.

When the stomach is SO upset by something it is a signal that it is somewhat "poisonous" to your system

So then tell me, what happens to the creatine monohydrate that upsets your stomach so much? There are only two physiological compounds in which ingested creatine will be converted to, and that's either intramuscular PCr, or the degradation product creatinine. Let me reiterate once again the peer-reviewed evidence that demonstrates that creatine's degradation to creatinine in the stomach/gastrointestinal tract is completely negligible....

"the degree of conversion of exogenous Cr to Crn in the stomach and the gut can be considered as negligible following the first 6 h of ingestion.

The degradation half-lives for the conversion of creatine to creatinine at pH values 1.4, 3.7 and 6.8 are 55, 7.5 and 40.5 days, respectively. At these rates,less than 0.1g of a 5g dose would be lost in 1 hour. Therefore, the conversion to creatinine in the gastrointestinal tract is probably minimal regardless of transit time."

[NO HYPE]

we only worry about those who are mature, and understand we are here to not only make people aware of EFX products, but also to help in any way we can.

Then you should start by relying on science-based evidence, instead of resorting to lame-ass hype.

Case in point: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...3&postcount=16

[I OuTsiDeR I]

Actually it is only HERE that the forum culture is like this. On most other boards people are much more friendly and accomodating of reps, and look to them for help and advice...and certainly do not bash and gang up.

That said...since my team has started posting here, EFX's ranking has gone up 20+ places and the team receives PM's daily asking them more questions and thanking them for their help. Thus, we only worry about those who are mature, and understand we are here to not only make people aware of EFX products, but also to help in any way we can.

Glad to see you guys moving up.

Again I'm not saying its fair but thats how it is on here. Your reps really need to be on point on the science of your products in the supp section because like you have noticed people will try to tear you apart and then you have others that piggy back.

IMO you have done as good a job as you can on the science side however your reps need to learn that also. Because saying "All I know is I've tried it and it works for me" isn't going to cut it around here. If anything people will write them off as they don't know what their talking about and are just pimping (even though this may not be the case).

Not against you guys by any means just trying to give you a perspective on how people react especially on here. Who knows maybe it will help you guys on your approach on here or maybe you don't care.

Wish you guys the best of Luck, and hope that you guys continue to grow.

[sixthsense]

If I did have that ability [which I do not], I wouldn't bother deleting your posts, as I can put them to shame with science-based evidence. Same with your laughable stance on glutamine.





Where did I ever insinuate that I was "smarter than the rest"? *silence* There is a difference between liking Pubmed and peer-reviewed journals, and actually comprehending the data within.





So then tell me, what happens to the creatine monohydrate that upsets your stomach so much? There are only two physiological compounds in which ingested creatine will be converted to, and that's either intramuscular PCr, or the degradation product creatinine. Let me reiterate once again the peer-reviewed evidence that demonstrates that creatine's degradation to creatinine in the stomach/gastrointestinal tract is completely negligible....

"the degree of conversion of exogenous Cr to Crn in the stomach and the gut can be considered as negligible following the first 6 h of ingestion.

The degradation half-lives for the conversion of creatine to creatinine at pH values 1.4, 3.7 and 6.8 are 55, 7.5 and 40.5 days, respectively. At these rates,less than 0.1g of a 5g dose would be lost in 1 hour. Therefore, the conversion to creatinine in the gastrointestinal tract is probably minimal regardless of transit time."

You should change your name from NO-HYPE to NO-SENSE.

Yes, you like to rely SOLEY on studies but just like everything else, things do not always play out in the real world as they do the lab.

Are you arrogant enough to think that the tens of thousands of people out there would swear by KA over straight CM are either stupid, uneducated, fooled, or experiencing a placebo effect?

Do you know how many studies out there are bias, not replicable, contradict each other, or contradict real life?

I am sorry you do not believe in KA and do not believe that there are those that simply cannot efficiently absorb CM...but the fact remains, they can't. Explain to me something VERY simple...why can I take 10 grams of KA per day without the slightest stomach issue, but with 5 grams of straight, high quality CM, my stomach is almost instantly upset? You think I am imagining it? You think that thousands of people are imaginging it? Yeah, you probably do.

Sorry "bro," but I know my body. I know that straight CM works for me, but only if I tolerate stomach upset AND take 10 grams per day EVERYDAY. I also know that KA works just as well as CM, but at just 1.5 to 3 grams per day, and with ZERO stomach upset.

Thus CM (most of it) is not being absorbed into my bloodstream and it is sitting in my gut undigested and pulling loads of fluid in there, as well as producing gas. And this is the case with thousands of others.

To not recognize this means NO-SENSE.

[sixthsense]

Glad to see you guys moving up.

Again I'm not saying its fair but thats how it is on here. Your reps really need to be on point on the science of your products in the supp section because like you have noticed people will try to tear you apart and then you have others that piggy back.

IMO you have done as good a job as you can on the science side however your reps need to learn that also. Because saying "All I know is I've tried it and it works for me" isn't going to cut it around here. If anything people will write them off as they don't know what their talking about and are just pimping (even though this may not be the case).

Not against you guys by any means just trying to give you a perspective on how people react especially on here. Who knows maybe it will help you guys on your approach on here or maybe you don't care.

Wish you guys the best of Luck, and hope that you guys continue to grow.

Thanks so much!

[NO HYPE]

you like to rely SOLEY on studies

Wrong.

Used CM for years...5-10 grams per day (anything less and I would get no ergogenic benefits)

Explain to me something VERY simple...why can I take 10 grams of KA per day without the slightest stomach issue, but with 5 grams of straight, high quality CM, my stomach is almost instantly upset? You think I am imagining it? You think that thousands of people are imaginging it? Yeah, you probably do.

Did you ever stop and think that 5-10 grams of CM per-day is excessive as well as wasteful? Contrary to popular belief, creatine does not even have to be supplemented on a daily basis. No wonder why the minority of individuals who report gastrointestinal upset with such large bolus doses of CM experience this at such excessive amounts. 1-2 grams of CM per-day is [more than sufficient] to maintain intramuscular PCr concentrations, so why are these individuals taking 3-8 grams more than they should?

[naturalguy]

things do not always play out in the real world as they do the lab.

Agreed. ^^^^^

Why most published research is false:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez

[nsiegel5]

I dont know Ive always had best results using creatine mono with grape juice. Ive tried a ton of other creatine products and nothing has really proved to work better then this simple combo. I dont know I mean 1000grams of mono for $15 and a couple gallons of grape juice seems like the best bang for the buck to me. Im happy companies keep on looking for new better things and Im always willing to try them but I also like to stick with what works.

[sixthsense]

Wrong.







Did you ever stop and think that 5-10 grams of CM per-day is excessive as well as wasteful? Contrary to popular belief, creatine does not even have to be supplemented on a daily basis. No wonder why the minority of individuals who report gastrointestinal upset with such large bolus doses of CM experience this at such excessive amounts. 1-2 grams of CM per-day is [more than sufficient] to maintain intramuscular PCr concentrations, so why are these individuals taking 3-8 grams more than they should?

Dude...you are so missing the point. You just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

Ok, we got the point...you don't believe in KA. Ok, so don't use it.

We will just keep selling the sh%t out of it...because it works.

[sixthsense]

Agreed. ^^^^^

Why most published research is false:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez

Nice one bro. Thanks.

[Bane]

Note: There is exactly zero baking soda, soda ash, or sodium bicarbonate in KA.

1)Baking Soda IS Sodium Bicarbonate
2)Check the patent brah

[De__eB]

2)Check the patent brah

Well, in their defense even though I think the product is overpriced trash.

The patent has a statement about a 'qualified individual' being allowed to substitute ANY procedure or ingredient for the ones explicitly specified, to reach the same resulting PH.

Its like 2 pages after their description of the pill/capsule/powderr/etc

[sixthsense]

1)Baking Soda IS Sodium Bicarbonate
2)Check the patent brah

Brah-

The patent is not reflective of what in in KA...sorry BRAH!

[sixthsense]

Well, in their defense even though I think the product is overpriced trash.

The patent has a statement about a 'qualified individual' being allowed to substitute ANY procedure or ingredient for the ones explicitly specified, to reach the same resulting PH.

Its like 2 pages after their description of the pill/capsule/powderr/etc

And WHY is it trash?

[Bane]

Brah-

The patent is not reflective of what in in KA...sorry BRAH!

And what is it then the magic ingredient? By FDA you are supposed to disclose what you are putting in a supplement you know, if not how much.

[De__eB]

And WHY is it trash?

1000g CM: $15 --- $.015/g
90g Kre-Alkalyn: $14.99 --- $.166/g

For something that has the exact same effects, paying 10x as much is absurd

[sixthsense]

1000g CM: $15 --- $.015/g
90g Kre-Alkalyn: $14.99 --- $.166/g

For something that has the exact same effects, paying 10x as much is absurd

Use 1/2 the amount for same effect # 1

#2 Some people just do not do well on straight CM, like it or not...its a fact.

#3 Another fact...for many of these people (me included) KA solves the problem.

Any product is worth DIRT if you do not absorb it or suffer with side effects.

[sixthsense]

And what is it then the magic ingredient? By FDA you are supposed to disclose what you are putting in a supplement you know, if not how much.

It is an actual chemical reaction that takes place during manufacture that brings the PH to 12-14. Someone as bright as you should know that it would take gram amounts of baking soda to affect PH in any significant way, and hmmmm...I don't think a tiny capsule of 99% CM has enough room for gram amounts of of B-Soda.

As for the patent...it only needed to reveal one way of raising PH, but not the actual way KA does it. Sorry, but true.

[Hardnutcheck]

I had slight stomach issues when I used mono but no troubles when I tried Kre-alk, That is a good enough reason for me to use Kre-alk as creatine.

[De__eB]

It is an actual chemical reaction that takes place during manufacture that brings the PH to 12-14. Someone as bright as you should know that it would take gram amounts of baking soda to affect PH in any significant way, and hmmmm...I don't think a tiny capsule of 99% CM has enough room for gram amounts of of B-Soda.

As for the patent...it only needed to reveal one way of raising PH, but not the actual way KA does it. Sorry, but true.

If it was an actual chemical reaction with the creatine mono, that would make it....not creatine mono, correct?