When Are Most People Using Glucose Disposal Agents (R-ALA)?

[Salaam86]

In reading through some of the threads here I see people recommending completely different methods of insulin mimetic supplementation. Some people take it only on their carb-up days, while others take them on everyday but their carb-up days and it has me confused.

While skimming the Duchaine's bodyopus and some of Lyle McDonalds work(recommended vanadyl sulfate and chromium) and reading Dinooi's Bodyopus Reloaded (used Glucophase XR) the dosing protocol was to use GDA's on the low to zero carb days. (For those that don't know Glucophase XR was a DS brand supplement containing K-R-Ala 250mg, D-Biotin 500mcg, Quercetin, 200mg Q3D 24mg, and Q4D 25mg. Unfortunately this product is no longer available, however I believe it is undergoing reformulation)


Where are people getting their information or why are people using them on only their carb up days?

I found this dosing suggestion on another forum, hopefully Dinoii doesn't mind me posting it and hopefully it is not out of context to the paramters discussed in the original thread.

Source: From DA
Let's say you are following the prototypical week and using GXR as an insulin modulator. Your dosing schedule would look as follows on a 6-meal per day plan:

Monday and Tuesday:

Take 2 prior to first 3 meals

Take 1 prior to second 2 meals

Take 0 prior to final meal to avoid hypoglycemic event overnight.

Wednesday until Carb-Up:

Take 1 prior to first 5 meals

Take 0 prior to final meal to avoid hypoglycemic event overnight.


If you choose to follow say the original 10 and/or 14 day cycles, the following may bode you well on that same 6 meal plan:

Days 1-2: Follow as designed for "Monday and Tuesday" above
Days 4-10: Follow as designed for "Wednesday until Carb-UP" above
Days 11-12: Eliminate doses prior to meals 4 and 5. Only take prior to first 3 meals.
Days 13-14: CARB-UP - NO GXR!!

[ItalWHOP]

I take ALA after my workout with my carb+protein shake. (on TKD) Or I take it before any cheat meals.

I was taking R-ALA, but it clumped up on me....so idk about R-ALA

[gunsofamerica]

I take ALA with every big meal. Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner at about 400mg per.

[Salaam86]

hmmm, it looks like you guys are taking it before a high carb meal for its nutritient partitioning effects right? Im going by the posted protocol in order to induce ketosis faster (or actually some modicum of the benefits of ketosis with an insulin management diet) and ideally prime my body for supercompensation of glycogen on my refeed day.

[gunsofamerica]

I'm already in ketosis. I take it with the bigger meals so I don't get heart burn.

[Salaam86]

lol, thats whats up.

[Never_Back_Down]

Originally Posted by FormerFatBoy86

hmmm, it looks like you guys are taking it before a high carb meal for its nutritient partitioning effects right? Im going by the posted protocol in order to induce ketosis faster (or actually some modicum of the benefits of ketosis with an insulin management diet) and ideally prime my body for supercompensation of glycogen on my refeed day.

I'm a fan of GDA's following a carbup to drop back into ketosis faster, however I have found that if used during my keto days I'm not so much a fan based entirely on cost/effectiveness ratio. You COULD use it during any meals that aren't exactly perfect and higher in total carbs if not net carbs. I've noticed that GXR before something like a Subway Low Carb Wrap blunts the negative effects of said meal. However, again, I personally prefer only to drop back into ketosis. Some may also look at doing it with their post-workout shake, but I would only go that route if using MORE than 25-30g dextrose/carbs.

[johnnyironboard]

The stronger ones like Bitter Melon and VS are no fun when carbs are low- I really drag. I save those for when I'm eating carbs.

[Salaam86]

Originally Posted by Never_Back_Down

I'm a fan of GDA's following a carbup to drop back into ketosis faster, however I have found that if used during my keto days I'm not so much a fan based entirely on cost/effectiveness ratio. You COULD use it during any meals that aren't exactly perfect and higher in total carbs if not net carbs. I've noticed that GXR before something like a Subway Low Carb Wrap blunts the negative effects of said meal. However, again, I personally prefer only to drop back into ketosis. Some may also look at doing it with their post-workout shake, but I would only go that route if using MORE than 25-30g dextrose/carbs.

that makes sense, taking 8 or 10 pills of GXR a day would definitely put a dent in anyone's wallet. Im still playing around with my dosing schedule but what im leaning towards is taking 100 mgs of Na-R-ALA along with 600 mg of Ceylon Cinnamon which is also supposed to be a GDA with just my first 4 meals. My meals 5 and 6 are late in the day and might cause a rebound, so im a see how things work for me like this. Im hoping this protocol will be effective enough to justify the expense. Im also supplementing with ALCAR but thats neither here nor there.

[Salaam86]

Originally Posted by johnnyironboard

The stronger ones like Bitter Melon and VS are no fun when carbs are low- I really drag. I save those for when I'm eating carbs.

I read that vanadyl sulfate as found in most supplements was too underdosed to be of any practical use. How much are you taking with your carbs?

[fudgetracks]

I'm bumping this thread.
I'm still confused as to when would be the best time to take GDA's for someone following a ketogenic diet. Could I just take the recommended dosage beginning the day of or after carb-up and taper off during the week?

[ItalWHOP]

Originally Posted by fudgetracks

I'm bumping this thread.
I'm still confused as to when would be the best time to take GDA's for someone following a ketogenic diet. Could I just take the recommended dosage beginning the day of or after carb-up and taper off during the week?

I'd say since you are doing CKD, take it after your carb up to get into ketosis faster. Frequency and dosage, will be up to you to find out. I would also take it with any meal that isn't totally keto friendly.

ALA will aid you in getting back into ketosis faster after a carb up. This is what most utilize it for on CKD.

For TKD, I have been taking it after my work outs with my PWO.

[Black_Spit]

Originally Posted by johnnyironboard

The stronger ones like Bitter Melon and VS are no fun when carbs are low- I really drag. I save those for when I'm eating carbs.

Agreed 100% on that, and I'll add that I believe that they are only effective in the presence of carbs as well. Only thing I disagree with is you implying that Bitter Melon or Vanadyl Sulate are stronger(if you were even implying that).

[Black_Spit]

Originally Posted by FormerFatBoy86

I read that vanadyl sulfate as found in most supplements was too underdosed to be of any practical use. How much are you taking with your carbs?

Try 10-25 mg's with a meal of carbs and come report back whether it's too low.

Originally Posted by fudgetracks

I'm bumping this thread.
I'm still confused as to when would be the best time to take GDA's for someone following a ketogenic diet. Could I just take the recommended dosage beginning the day of or after carb-up and taper off during the week?

With carbs... maybe the first day back into ketosis. I say maybe because r-ala sucks with no carbs, as was already mentioned, plus it will cause heartburn.

Originally Posted by ItalWHOP

I'd say since you are doing CKD, take it after your carb up to get into ketosis faster. Frequency and dosage, will be up to you to find out. I would also take it with any meal that isn't totally keto friendly.

ALA will aid you in getting back into ketosis faster after a carb up. This is what most utilize it for on CKD.

For TKD, I have been taking it after my work outs with my PWO.

^^^

[treerollins]

Aside from re-feeds, the best time to use GDA's are during carbohydrate re-introduction phases. It wouldn't hurt (aside from financially) to use low dose GDA's during a ketogenic diet, but the effects won't be of any great practical value (serum glucose/insulin are already low). Anytime you introduce a carbohydrate bolus, or add moderate amounts of carbohydrates back into a diet, GDA's become valuable. For pre-diabetic patients, GDA's (inculding fish oil) and low carbohydrate diets are a god-send. There is much research into the field of GDA/insulin mimetics for this very reason; new products are popping up every month (many from ayurvedic medicine).

[johnnyironboard]

Originally Posted by Black_Spit

Agreed 100% on that, and I'll add that I believe that they are only effective in the presence of carbs as well. Only thing I disagree with is you implying that Bitter Melon or Vanadyl Sulate are stronger(if you were even implying that).

No- Bitter melon, VS, and ALA seem to have about the same affect on me- not much fun when carbs are low. Chromium is very mild by comparison.

[johnnyironboard]

Originally Posted by FormerFatBoy86

I read that vanadyl sulfate as found in most supplements was too underdosed to be of any practical use. How much are you taking with your carbs?

30 mg with a carb meal.

[chasinSKURT]

bump...

Has anyone tried using a glucose disposing agent prior to sleeping?

How would this interfere with sleep? My thought process behind such a protocol would be that lowering glucose before bed would help substantiate GH pulses during sleep.

I'm thinking about using 500 mg's of cinnamon extract

Any thoughts?

[CanuckTank]

R-ALA is an insulin mimicker and thus, is to be avoided when on a diet which is trying to keep the insulin spikes down.

[Black_Spit]

Originally Posted by chasinSKURT

bump...

Has anyone tried using a glucose disposing agent prior to sleeping?

How would this interfere with sleep? My thought process behind such a protocol would be that lowering glucose before bed would help substantiate GH pulses during sleep.

I'm thinking about using 500 mg's of cinnamon extract

Any thoughts?

^^ Very interesting.

Cinnamon is not one that I have experimented with that I can remember. Let us know how it goes.

But, anyway, yes I have used them before bed, just not on a regular basis, usually just long enough to get in ketosis.

This is really a better topic for the supp section, though.

[chasinSKURT]

Originally Posted by CanuckTank

R-ALA is an insulin mimicker and thus, is to be avoided when on a diet which is trying to keep the insulin spikes down.

Actually, using something like R-ALA would help keep insulin spikes down by improving insulin sensitivity.

[chasinSKURT]

Originally Posted by Black_Spit

^^ Very interesting.

Cinnamon is not one that I have experimented with that I can remember. Let us know how it goes.

But, anyway, yes I have used them before bed, just not on a regular basis, usually just long enough to get in ketosis.

This is really a better topic for the supp section, though.

It's coming over there in a bit... I actually searched first and stumbled on this thread, and figured I'd give it a shot.

[Black_Spit]

Originally Posted by CanuckTank

R-ALA is an insulin mimicker and thus, is to be avoided when on a diet which is trying to keep the insulin spikes down.

They (glucose disposal agents/GDA's such as ALA/VS etc) are very effective for speeding one's re-entry into ketosis after a refeed. You should experiment.

[pitching101]

hey could someone give me a link to the most cost effective product of ala.

[Black_Spit]

Originally Posted by pitching101

hey could someone give me a link to the most cost effective product of ala.

Cost effective... Honestly? Wal-Mart. 60 pills, 100 mg for like $5. You don't need a ton as you'll only use to speed ketosis a couple days a week.

Better quality are R-ala or Kr-ala.

Here's a good one.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ast/ala.html

Primaforce/Scivation is a great brand also:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/prima/ala.html

Best deal I found on good stuff (r-ala) @ bb.com is below:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/all/rala.html

This one has biotin in it (ala is said to possibly deplete biotin) and it's r-ala as well:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/syn/r.html