*Official Atheist/Agnostic Thread*

[Super Man]

Louisiana's latest creationism bill moves to House floor

On May 21, 2008, Senate Bill 733 (PDF), the so-called Louisiana Science Education Act, was unanimously passed by the Louisiana House Education Committee. Before passage, the bill was amended slightly from the form which passed the Senate on April 29, 2008, as previously reported by NCSE. It now moves to the full House.

The Associated Press reports (May 21, 2008) that, over the course of a hearing that lasted close to three hours, "Science teachers called Senate Bill 733 a veiled attempt to add religion to science classes." The bill singles evolution out from other scientific theories, and states that a teacher "may use supplemental textbooks and other instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner."

In the House hearing, some critics pointed out that the bill's stated goals are already covered by policies set by the state's Board of Elementary and Secondary Education. The Baton Rouge Advocate reports Tammy Wood, a science teacher from the Zachary, Louisiana school district, told the committee: "There is absolutely no need for this bill," and added "I am begging you here today to kill this bill."

After the bill passed the state Senate, Alan Leshner, CEO of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, wrote to the New Orleans Times-Picayune (May 6, 2008), and echoed the same sentiments. "Proponents offer deceptive arguments about encouraging students to think critically," he observed. "But Louisiana's education standards already do that. The real intent is to introduce classroom materials that raise misleading objections to the well-documented science of evolution and offer a religious idea called intelligent design as a supposed alternative. That would unleash an assault against scientific integrity, leaving students confused about science and unprepared to excel in a modern workforce."

While bill sponsor Senator Ben Nevers (D-Bogalusa) insisted to the AP on May 21 that "I plainly state in this bill that no religion will be taught," he previously told the Hammond Daily Star (April 6, 2008) that the bill was drafted by a group which "believe[s] that scientific data related to creationism should be discussed." Similarly, bill supporter David Tate, a member of the Livingston Parish School Board, told the New Orleans Times-Picayune (April 18, 2008), "I believe that both sides -- the creationism side and the evolution side -- should be presented and let students decide what they believe," adding that the bill is needed because "teachers are scared to talk about" creationism.

At the hearing in the House committee, Caroline Crocker, CEO of the Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness (IDEA) Center, "said Darwinian evolution is outdated and doesn't explain new findings in science. She also said she had been persecuted in the academic world because of her views," according to the AP. NCSE examined her claims of persecution in our response to her appearance in Ben Stein's antievolution movie, Expelled.

Opponents cited these statements to argue that the bill would open classrooms to creationism. House Education Committee Chairman Don Trahan (R-Lafayette) responded by proposing an amendment which the AP explains "would give the state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education the ability to prohibit introduction of materials."

NCSE board member Barbara Forrest told the committee that even the amended version was too broadly written. "Anything could get into the classroom," the AP reports her telling the committee.

That prospect worries the Baton Rouge Advocate's editorial board, which wrote (May 21, 2008) that the bill will "provide a full-time living for dozens of lawyers in the American Civil Liberties Union. They will have a field day suing taxpayer-funded schools as groups use Nevers' language to push Bible-based texts in the schools. That's unconstitutional, and we can see the taxpayer paying -- and paying, and paying -- for this policy in the future."

What a bunch of horse **** eh? No evidence my ass. I have not even seen an ATTEMPT to prove the idea of intelligent design or creationism through anything more then "We went from a to z, we know everything except for b and j so therefor a god must exist!".

Bollucks.

[Uninspired123]

What a bunch of horse **** eh? No evidence my ass. I have not even seen an ATTEMPT to prove the idea of intelligent design or creationism through anything more then "We went from a to z, we know everything except for b and j so therefor a god must exist!".

Bollucks.

you can't PROVE that creationism wasn't true, guy

[Super Man]

you can't PROVE that creationism wasn't true, guy

Creationism is just a little disclaimer at the beginning of evolution that said "God meant to do that..."

Run along now.

Science class rooms should be filled with science, not a "you cant prove therefore it must be true" based curriculum.

[JAGERBOY]

Yeah its pretty much bull**** that they are singling out evolution and not all other scientific theories. Its also bull**** that they keep saying "teach both sides" as if creationism has any sort of valid evidence to warrant it being taught in class. Heres an idea, I think that fairies with the power to turn invisible living in the center of the earth are what cause volcanoes. I think that it should also be taught in class and we should let students decide whether they believe that or the theory of plate tectonics.

[Super Man]

Yeah its pretty much bull**** that they are singling out evolution and not all other scientific theories. Its also bull**** that they keep saying "teach both sides" as if creationism has any sort of valid evidence to warrant it being taught in class. Heres an idea, I think that fairies with the power to turn invisible living in the center of the earth are what cause volcanoes. I think that it should also be taught in class and we should let students decide whether they believe that or the theory of plate tectonics.

Excellent point. If we teach these two ideas and 'let these students decide for themselves' then whats to stop us from teaching alchemy instead of chemistry, astrology instead of astronomy, etc.

[Kion]

Excellent point. If we teach these two ideas and 'let these students decide for themselves' then whats to stop us from teaching alchemy instead of chemistry, astrology instead of astronomy, etc.

One of the people in the Dover trial I believe said that if the scope of what's considered the scientific method was to be expanded to fit in ID, then that such things like alchemy and astrology would become a topic that could be taught as well.

[JAGERBOY]

One of the people in the Dover trial I believe said that if the scope of what's considered the scientific method was to be expanded to fit in ID, then that such things like alchemy and astrology would become a topic that could be taught as well.

Behe.

[Kion]

Behe.

Proof alone against any sort of intelligent designer.

[riptor]

What's even worse is that the people who support this bill are using Ben Stein's movie Expelled as evidence against evolution. Because an eye drop commercial actor surely knows more about science than scientists.

[Super Man]

What's even worse is that the people who support this bill are using Ben Stein's movie Expelled as evidence against evolution. Because an eye drop commercial actor surely knows more about science than scientists.

Bueler...Bueler...Bueler...

[cleank72]

atheists ftw

[Uninspired123]

wattup atheist people

[Mr_Kinney]

What if we anti-thiests were to just stop being so polite to thiests? They claim that we are harming society; yet I believe it was us that started this country (franklin), us that invented our "modern conveniences", us that see real reason and yes still great wonder in the universe.

I don't know WHY they hate us so much but after having my freedoms and rights trampled on so many times because of them I'm about fed up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxGMqKCcN6A

If you actually have enough time to look at the whole vid I'm sure everyone... Even the anti-athiests will learn something.

[twinklefairy]

What if we anti-thiests were to just stop being so polite to thiests? They claim that we are harming society; yet I believe it was us that started this country (franklin), us that invented our "modern conveniences", us that see real reason and yes still great wonder in the universe.

I don't know WHY they hate us so much but after having my freedoms and rights trampled on so many times because of them I'm about fed up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxGMqKCcN6A

If you actually have enough time to look at the whole vid I'm sure everyone... Even the anti-athiests will learn something.

I hear you man. Sometimes I think all these believers deep down know their religion is BS, But the thing is, people who choose to embrace whatever religion have already let go of rational thought, and instead will tell themselves anything to keep themselves believing(you will learn that if you talk to them about religion). They need the comforting illusion that god cares and will help them solve their problems and will provide them everlasting life, so anything that challenges their self-rationalized illusion is evil to them.

That's why it's almost impossible to win over believers.

[twinklefairy]

But maybe if we talk to believers with respect they will be more likely to listen to reason. I remember watching Bill Mahr when Richard Dawkins was a guest and he really came off like an arrogant know it all. I can't remember everything perfectly, but he was talking about the scientist who helped unravel the human genome--and is a christian. All the while Dawkins seemed to try to discredit his achievements and question his intellect. I thought to myself " no wonder christians don't want to listen to Richard Dawkins"

I guess my point is we can't just assume that believers believe what they do because they are stupid. In fact, I think a lot of atheists are every bit as closed-minded and irrational as many religious people, and a lot of religious people are very smart--much smarter than my unbelieving self! But with respectful dialogue, maybe we can get these religious types to see it our way a little more.

[JAGERBOY]

But maybe if we talk to believers with respect they will be more likely to listen to reason. I remember watching Bill Mahr when Richard Dawkins was a guest and he really came off like an arrogant know it all. I can't remember everything perfectly, but he was talking about the scientist who helped unravel the human genome--and is a christian. All the while Dawkins seemed to try to discredit his achievements and question his intellect. I thought to myself " no wonder christians don't want to listen to Richard Dawkins"

Actually thats not what happened, Dawkins actually said he was an intelligent guy and likely didn't take literal the things in the Bible. When Maher told him that he DID take them literal, then Dawkins said nevermind, he's not that smart.

[twinklefairy]

then Dawkins said nevermind, he's not that smart.

I hope he was joking

[JAGERBOY]

I hope he was joking

He said it in a joking manner. I'm sure he acknowledges that he would have to be relatively intelligent to be part of the human genome studies.

[kooldude]

if god doesn't exist, then where did the world come from? ANSWER THAT!

Religion ftw!!

[DaCougarMech]

if god doesn't exist, then where did the world come from? ANSWER THAT!

Religion ftw!!

oh you!

[Lager1]

if god doesn't exist, then where did the world come from? ANSWER THAT!

Religion ftw!!

goddamnit, a foolproof argument. praise jebus, as much as I hate to admit it.

[Mr_Kinney]

if god doesn't exist, then where did the world come from? ANSWER THAT!

Religion ftw!!

Thats actually one of the easyest questions to answer given the right amount of time and the assumtion that the person reading the explanation has the right attention span.

Baised on the assumption that you arent the kind of person to only be able to read the real explanation of how the world came to be try going here...

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/education/ti...oduction.shtml

It's got "purdy pichers" and everything.

Now if your real question was Where did the matter from the big bang come from I'll be honest and just say "I don't know" and I'm comfortable not knowing or deluding myself into thinking that it was from some sort of god(s).

Monothiests sure are tossing a lot of slow balls these days.

[kooldude]

^I was just messing around before. haha

[Super Man]

Dawkins was joking when he said that the leader of the Genome project wasn't intelligent. I saw it and it's 100% obvious to anyone who watches it.

[TheJosh]

Did Jesus Invent Flip-Flops?

[twinklefairy]

I know he was joking, but I must have not read him right then, you know?

I must confess I don't know much about Richard Dawkins. Never been interested to find out more about him either, so what do I know.

[Super Man]

Well of course he does think less of him because he believes in a celestial being, but he doesn't discredit his accomplishments and thinks rather highly of him otherwise.

[Mr_Kinney]

^I was just messing around before. haha

Lol. I figured you were but I just needed to put it in there to keep any future monothiests from actually meaning it. kind of a preventative measure.

Kudos

[riptor]

Here is a little game in which you have to defeat the evil atheist. It plays like one of those chose your own adventure books.

The Atheist attacks God and His followers by using his brain and utilising the three unholy forces of "Knowledge", "Reason", and "Thought". You must be ready to counter the Atheist's aggression with your God-given gifts of "Faith", "Repetition", and "Proclaiming Religious Intolerance" in order to wear down the otherwise persuasive offensive powers of this insidious foe.

http://www.neonbubble.com/games/chri...versus-atheist

[Galt]

Consciousness in Human and Robot Minds

Daniel C. Dennett

This is just something I'm reading for fun. I have a sort of amateurish understanding of philosophy of mind, figured someone else in here may enjoy this as well...


Edit-also, a funny little saying I heard Michael Shermer repeat(said he read it on a bumper sticker):

"I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know, and you don't either"