*Official Atheist/Agnostic Thread*

[Germanic]

This is the official atheist/agnostic thread.

All are welcome.

Atheism is not a belief, rather, it is a lack of belief in god(s).

Agnosticism is a lack of belief in god(s), while open to the possibility of god(s) existing.


Evolution FAQ II Turbo: Championship Edition
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?p=154268531

Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens 2 hour chat*VID*
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=6109401

The young earth creationists nightmare post
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1005500

"Instant Conversion"-Power of suggestion can lead to insane beliefs. *VID*
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=6049931

Hell Doesn't Exist, Revisited
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...4251&highlight



Moderator note: As with all debates, please stay civil!

[QuicksandATL]

Praise nothing!

[JUSA]

In. Good luck guys, I'll check back because I'm curious which of you are "strong atheists" and which of you are Agnostic/Weak atheists. I'm a very, very, very weak atheist. So weak, in fact, that I actually believe in God and Christ.

Seriously though, it's about time you guys got your own sticky. GJ

[Swamp Dog]

2nd

edit: 3rd

[Fidelis]

sup

smj, I might write out a detailed definition of atheism so we never have to bother with semantic debates again. I'll send it to you so you can edit it in to the first post. Or, maybe I'll just post it and you can make a link to it in the OP, like part of a table of contents.

We should make a little FAQ to cut down on the number of atheism threads

[AKR]

Q: Why do some of you hate god if you don't believe in him? Isn't it true you actually believe but are just angry with him?

A: First off, let me say that not every atheist is passionate about religious topics, or about disprove/condemning any religion in particular. Some really do not care, while some of us are quite passionate about it.

I'm sure many of you religious folks hate other religions. Is this because you believe them to be true or just the opposite? Does an idea have to be true for you to hate it? Do you not all hate the flying spaghetti monster? That certainly doesn't make it real or mean you think it's real, does it? Don't some atheist hate multiple religions and the gods of those religions? If hating a god means we think that god exists, how can that be possible when we hate multiple gods of multiple religions?

Some atheist are angry about certain religions because they are bothered by what they think are lies; they are bothered by ideologies that seem offensive and illogical, and they are bothered by those who follow those religious ideologies and push them on others. No one wants to live in a society where they feel their lives or the lives of others are being unjustly intruded upon.

In the US, Christianity has long dominated society, and many Christians use the government to push their morals on others. This goes far beyond what some consider to be petty instances, such as statements about their god on everyone's money or in everyone's pledge. Although, rarely used, there have been state laws passed banning atheists from holding public office. President George Bush JR has stated that atheists should not be president, and George Bush SR has gone so far as to say that atheists should not be citizens. Government funds for failed sex miseducation programs have been appropriated to Christian groups, as well as funding for jails that indoctrinate prisoners but fail to lower repeat offenders. Christians have fought hard to push evolution out of schools, or at least, include unscientific ideas related to creationism in science classes. They have tried to enforce teacher-lead school prayer, and demand children to say a pledge with religious statements. At one time or another, they have out lawed gay sex, and in some areas, they still have laws against sex toys. They have made laws that allow them to freely abuse children in the name of their religion, while others would be committing illegal acts for doing the same things. They also are fighting hard to keep bigotry alive, by not allowing homosexual couples the same rights as them.

There is also a matter of the holidays and the fact that many of them are unaware of the origins and are offended when people try to celebrate for purposes other than what they claim is the true purpose. When people try to acknowledge all holidays by saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas," they claim people are trying to take christmas away from them. This act of trying to suppress and exclude others while claiming to be persecuted causes many to be upset, beyond just atheists. Some christians often run around complaining about being oppressed every time someone stands up against the unconstitutional laws Christians are trying to enact. On another level, some of them also indoctrinate their children with their religion while miseducating and keeping them in ignorance. This is bad for the children and society as a whole as it creates more citizens that are not properly educated who will often hold back science and the advancement of society in general. One could also argue that some forms of religious indoctrination do mental harm to children.

Here are links to back up some of these statements:

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/dildo2.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/texas.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/istook98.htm
http://community.livejournal.com/dar...an/209138.html
http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pa..._publicschools
http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-...-we-trust.html
http://www.cnn.com/US/9908/12/kansas.evolution.flap/
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...3/ai_n13452478
http://www.sodomy.org/laws/
http://www.robsherman.com/advocacy/060401a.htm

This is not about hating all religious people, nor is it necessarily about hating an actual religion (although, some of us do hate certain religions). Many of us will leave religions alone that leave us and others alone. But when a religion is trying to dominate a society, and is having negative affects, there will be a strong resistance, and for good reason. This does not mean that we all hate everyone of a particular religion. There are people within probably every religion that are not hostile or aggressively trying to dominate those around them. In fact, this thread was stickied by a mod that is a Christian. While we respect some people of many religions, we cannot help that we disagree with the teachings or the overall behavior of those in their religion, and we feel we must speak out against them. It has nothing to do with us believing these gods are true and everything to do with those who do. And again, it should be restated that some athiest are fairly uninterested in religion.

Q: What's the point in living if you don't believe in an afterlife?

A: First off, god and an afterlife are not necessarily dependent on each other. Who's to say that beings do not transfer some of their energy to another dimension? Whether or not this can be explained is irrelevant to the fact that some atheists believe it at least may be possible.

However, if it is not, fear of death does not create an alternative. Wanting the facts of life to be different does not manipulate them in anyway. Some of us are bothered by not being able to pay our bills; some of us are bothered by having to work for a living; some of us are bothered by starving to death; some of us are bothered by the laws we have to follow to keep out of jail. Does this resentment or fear make them any less true? Does a desire negate their consequences and create an alternative we enjoy? No, desire is simply an emotion; it does not change facts.

As for the point of living, every answer will be somewhat different. People live to enjoy the different activies that this world offers. Some of us live to understand this world; to learn more and unravel great mysteries; some of us live to enjoy nature and to protect it; some of us live to create all different forms of art; some of us live to enjoy sex and to party with others; some of us live to have families and/or to create fulfilling relationships with other people and animals; some of us live to make the world better for others, or any combination of things.

Some of us have a hard time under standing the concept of "well, if it doesn't last forever, what's the point?" Why do you go watch your favorite sport? Or why do you hang out with your closest friends? Why do you partake in your favorite activity? Why do you listen to the music you love? Friends don't last forever; Often, romantic relationships do not last forever, regardless of religion. Animal friends don't last forever. Songs don't last forever. Yet, we involve ourselves with all of those finite things. Sometimes, we do not do things for the memories or for the hopes of doing them again in the future. We do them because we are living right now and enjoy them in the moment, however long that lasts. Sure, we all enjoy the memories and the hopes of doing them again, but what really matters is the moment we are doing them. Everything else pails in comparison. If some of us lost our memory and our ability to look to the future, we would still do those things.

If you do not see any reason to live in this world for the sake of this existence, you should seek immediate psychological help. Maybe some medication and therapy would do you good. Maybe, those of you who think all atheists are angry, miserable people are really just transferring your own view of how the world would be if your religion was not true.

Just sayin'.

Q: Do you believe in aliens, and ghosts, and other paranormal activity?

A: Some atheists do and some do not. Atheism is a stance of non-belief as it relates to god; it does not cover the things mentioned, as they do not necessarily relate to any sort of a god. Some people confuse atheism with nihilism. Atheism itself does not deny the possibility of a god or "paranormal" activity. Through out history, people have thought that certain things were related to spiritual, religious entities, when really, they were physical, explainable, normal things. Hopefully, as science progresses, we will be able to answer some of these questions better.

Q: How can the universe exist without a creator?

(I'm not as scientifically educated as some of you, so help me out if you see a problem here, or a better way to say things.

PS Wasn't there some fairly recent news about subatomic particles appearing out of nothing? I'm having a hard time finding a good source on that)


A: How can your creator exist without a creator? It really makes no sense to say that the universe must come from a creator, as everything needs to be created, but your god doesn't. If it's possible for the most intelligent, powerful being to simply poof into existance or exist eternally, then why is the same thing not possible for the matter that became the universe? You can say that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but there are problems with this:

That is only an assumption relevant to the laws within this universe, but is not necessarily true for things outside of the universe. Some people will argue that because of this, god can create energy out of nothing, since he is outside of the universe. If that is true, then one must also acknowledge that the matter that the universe came from was not within the universe either, as it had not yet been created, therefore, it has the same freedom as a supposed god.


btw, here is a link to a good site. Maybe it could go in the first post:

www.atheisttoolbox.com

[Germanic]

Originally Posted by AKR

Correction: praise Fitnessman!



Folks let's put together a bunch of FAQ and then maybe SMJ can edit his post so everything can be found up top (and I can edit mine, if that post gets filled up) and people don't have to go through a bunch of clutter.

hell yes, good idea

[Catabolic_Cal]

Finally its made so we can all get along.

Praise Jesus

[QuicksandATL]

Originally Posted by AKR

Correction: praise Fitnessman!



Folks let's put together a bunch of FAQ and then maybe SMJ can edit his post so everything can be found up top (and I can edit mine, if that post gets filled up) and people don't have to go through a bunch of clutter.

I'll help!

Atheist FAQ:

Q: Why don't we believe in God?
A: i ono, lol

[Germanic]

Originally Posted by QuicksandATL

I'll help!

Atheist FAQ:

Q: Why don't we believe in God?
A: i ono, lol

Glad you've finally seen the light.

[Wooderson316]

Originally Posted by JUSA

In. Good luck guys, I'll check back because I'm curious which of you are "strong atheists" and which of you are Agnostic/Weak atheists. I'm a very, very, very weak atheist. So weak, in fact, that I actually believe in God and Christ.

Seriously though, it's about time you guys got your own sticky. GJ

Thanks for making me laugh out loud. That was really funny.

Just curious, but why start thisthread. I mean I'm all strong atheist an what-not, but whay have a rah-rah thread about it?

[Germanic]

Originally Posted by Fidelis

sup

smj, I might write out a detailed definition of atheism so we never have to bother with semantic debates again. I'll send it to you so you can edit it in to the first post. Or, maybe I'll just post it and you can make a link to it in the OP, like part of a table of contents.

We should make a little FAQ to cut down on the number of atheism threads

That would be great, I think AKR is getting together some of the atheist threads.

[M-DK]

In!

Would it make sense to post the stuff from the evolution faq (by squanto iirc) in here? I know it isnt exactly on topic, but a lot of people are probably going to ask some of the same questions, and it looks like we'll only get one sticky.

[QuicksandATL]

Originally Posted by M-DK

In!

Would it make sense to post the stuff from the evolution faq (by squanto iirc) in here? I know it isnt exactly on topic, but a lot of people are probably going to ask some of the same questions, and it looks like well only get one sticky.

What does evolution have to do with atheism?

[Germanic]

Originally Posted by QuicksandATL

What does evolution have to do with atheism?

Nothing, we just feel like including it.

[QuicksandATL]

Originally Posted by smj5351

Nothing, we just feel like including it.

Can you also include a section on the Tesla Coil?

[Germanic]

More FAQ


Q: Why do you guys keep referring to stupid crap like a teapot in space, invisible pink unicorns, tooth fairies and a Flying Spaghetti Monster?

A: It does sound pretty stupid at first glance, but these references are just colorful versions of a "Reductio Ad Absurdum" argument, a powerful logical tool.

Most atheists will compare a belief in a 'God' as being the same as one of the above made-up entities because in an atheist's view, there is just as much evidence for and against their existence.

The idea is that if it is clearly absurd to believe that something like a Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, then it is absurd to believe that a 'God' exists too.
er. Many
Q: Isn't guilt proof that God exists?

A: Guilt is an evolutionary mechanism. Again, this does not mean that evolution gives us our morality, but guilt, in and of itself is part of a survival mechanism. It doesn't necessarily make us feel guilty for all of the same things, but is determined by culture. People in different cultures will feel guilty for different things, which shows some of it is simply from socializing. Take a female from some tribe, and ask her if she feels guilty for not covering up her breasts. She will probably look confused and laugh at you. Take a person from the western world, and stick them at a table with middle eastern folks. Chances are, someone at that table is going to get really pissed off at the western person's eating style (no left hand for eating). But take a person from within that culture, who understands the norms and taboos within that society, and they will feel guilty for doing things that foreigners will be cluessless about.

You can also take a dog, and teach it to be guilty for just about anything. Take a dog off the street, and it won't feel guilty for jumping on your couch, but walk into the room with your well trained dog that you never let on the couch, and you will see the guilt in his/her eyes. Dogs are not genetically predisposed to feeling guilty for jumping on your couch. Although, if you kill enough dogs for it, it will probably show up in the species at some point.

The ability to learn what is "right" or "wrong" within a society helps people fit in, which, of course, will lead to a greater chance of survival. It's often not about absolutes, but about what's right and wrong in that culture. If you are raised by parents of a particular religion, you will be more likely to feel guilty for breaking the rules of the religion that they raise you with. Ask a Christian child if s/he feels guilty for not following all of the laws of a Muslim; or ask a Hinduist child if s/he feels guilty for not following the laws of a Jew. People are socialized to feel guilty for different things, and most people grow up to feel guilty according to how they were trained by their parents, and often to a lesser extent, the rest of their broader culture.

Even within one religion, there is no absolute agreement on morality. There are various sects of different religions, and the fact that they cannot agree should lead one to understand that either god is really confused, or he is not relevant to guilt and morality.

Now, some things are innate in healthy humans. There are certain things that most people feel guilty about, regardless of culture. EAch innate sense of guilt has it's own evolutionary purpose. The fact that you can teach animals and humans to feel guilty various things shows that it is not a matter of some god internally scolding you. As is the fact that most people feel guilty for certain things can be explained away as an evolutionary trait.



Q: Since you all seem to worship evolution, shouldn't your morals be strictly based on evolution?

A: We do not worship evolution, nor do we all look to it for morality. While we can look to evolution to understand why many humans have developed certain morals, it only explains what is beneficial in terms of how it can advance the species. Evolution is a process-not a moral authority. Evolution does not"know" anything, as it is not a living entity. Saying that it is good to do what advances yourself or your species is simply putting your own opinion of morality onto what is nothing more than a process. It is you or other humans that are valuing the advancement of your species or yourself among all else. You are the conscious entity making a judgement. Processes do not judge.



Q: How can atheists have morals if they have no god to get their morals from? Shouldn't you all be out raping and pillaging if there is no god to stop you?

A: If you take the stance that god says what is right and wrong, and he can change it whenever he sees fit, then it's meaningless, because it's really just what god feels like he wants people to do at any point in time. What's the point a morality that's simply dictated at the whim of another? If god wants you to kill your family and rape the dog, then you would call that moral, because it's what god considers good? If he's really the source of morality, then he can dictate morality in anyway he sees fit. If he cannot do this, then he is not the ultimate moral authority, and therefore, irrelevant anyway.

Atheist don't need heavenly rewards or hellish punishment to validate our morality, or to encourage our following of said morality. We don't do it because we have to; we do it because we believe in respecting others. The fact that many religious people say they would be free of restraint if there was no god is quite frightening. If religious people are incapable respecting others without rewards or threats from a god, then that shows their negative traits and not ours. If you're only doing it to get to a reward or keep from being punished, then it's not even about doing "right" for the sake of right, so much as it is for completely selfish reasons. If you would do anything to anyone if your god told you to, then it has nothing to do with actually caring about other people or other forms of life. We will pass on that kind of "morality," if you can even call it that.

Atheists follow laws and morals for different reasons. We do not all live by the same morality or obey all of the same laws. You could say that some rules are followed by some atheists because they simply don't want to face the punishments of society. While others are followed simply because they believe they are good rules to live by, regardless of societies laws.

Atheists will also have morals that are unaffected by the laws of society. One can get away with quite a lot without breaking the laws of a society, but many atheists choose not to. Regardless of whether atheists follow some of the rules out of fear of punishment, or whether they abide by morals not enforced by society, the fact is societies can be orderly and can contain many morals found in religion without a god to enforce such things. If this was not possible, it would be detrimental to our society. A species is much more likely to survive if it can work togeth advanced species have complex social structures and work as groups to survive. If they did not all follow some sort of morality, this would not be possible.

[Dig]

Finally. I hope you guys stick to this thread and stop making 20 "God doesn't exist because of x" threads a day.

Have fun.

[QuicksandATL]

Originally Posted by smj5351

Sure, write it up and I'll include it.

Thx.

[M-DK]

Originally Posted by QuicksandATL

What does evolution have to do with atheism?

If you read my entire post, long as it is, i clearly state that they are two different topics, but i have noticed not everyone is aware of the distinction.

[AKR]

Originally Posted by smj5351

That would be great, I think AKR is getting together some of the atheist threads.

I'm not yet. What all do we want in here? I think we should put a notice at the top that says that atheism is simply a lack of belief in god (with a hyperlink to Fidelis' definition), and that some of these topics are not technically apart of atheism, but some of the common stances of many atheists.

So, we could do some stuff on evolution, even though it's not technically part of atheism. And we could also point out that one does not have to believe in evolution to be an atheist (as was my case when I first became one).

But then, do we want to post anything on why we do not believe in particular gods, or how broad of a thread do we want to make this?

EDIT: I'm going to bed soon, but when I get up, I could look at some common myths about atheism and either post those or give answers in my own words.

[Skwidward]

Originally Posted by AKR

and people don't have to go through a bunch of clutter.

I really hate having to do that.

[US_Ranger]

Originally Posted by Dig

Finally. I hope you guys stick to this thread and stop making 20 "God doesn't exist because of x" threads a day.

Have fun.

x100000

[JAGERBOY]

lol @ atheists. "Oh we need a thread too!!!!!!".

Pathetic god haters.

[Skwidward]

Do atheists believe in ghosts?

[JAGERBOY]

Originally Posted by Skwidward

Do atheists believe in ghosts?

They could, however I would find them just as illogical as theists...unless they could provide good evidence. Its like an atheist NOT subscribing to evolution. You'd have to come up with a very strange explanation for life if you don't subscribe to evolution AND don't believe in a god.

[Germanic]

Originally Posted by AKR

I'm not yet. What all do we want in here? I think we should put a notice at the top that says that atheism is simply a lack of belief in god (with a hyperlink to Fidelis' definition), and that some of these topics are not technically apart of atheism, but some of the common stances of many atheists.

So, we could do some stuff on evolution, even though it's not technically part of atheism. And we could also point out that one does not have to believe in evolution to be an atheist (as was my case when I first became one).

But then, do we want to post anything on why we do not believe in particular gods, or how broad of a thread do we want to make this?

EDIT: I'm going to bed soon, but when I get up, I could look at some common myths about atheism and either post those or give answers in my own words.

Whatever you guys want I will include in the first post.

[Skwidward]

Originally Posted by JAGERBOY

They could, however I would find them just as illogical as theists...unless they could provide good evidence. Its like an atheist NOT subscribing to evolution. You'd have to come up with a very strange explanation for life if you don't subscribe to evolution AND don't believe in a god.

So it's not that you don't believe in them....you just lack a belief in them?



I'm taking the piss btw, sorry

[matt555]

I'm an atheist, always have been. I don't have any problems with people believing whatever they want to believe, as long as they don't bother me. Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, ... I can get along with everyone.

[HoosierBoy]

Originally Posted by smj5351

This is the official atheist/agnostic thread.

All are free to enter.

Atheism is not a belief, rather, it is a lack of belief in god(s).

Agnosticism is a lack of belief in god(s), while open to the possibility of god(s) existing.

So atheists are not open to the possibility of God existing? At all? Seems pretty illogical.