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  1. #121
    In search of V-Taper ectoBgone's Avatar
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    Thanks for that thorough reply, Bill. *sigh* ... so many interesting lifts. Almost makes you hope for a plateau so you have an excuse to change things up!

    Have a great weekend.

  2. #122
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by alkell View Post
    Solid workout mate. I like your choice of exercises.
    Hi, alkell; thanks! I'm always moving stuff in and out of rotation, to keep things fresh, and avoid plateaus. I wouldn't suggest this approach to anyone who's still got progress to make; I maxed-out on everything about 4 years ago, so my goals have changed from those of most others'.
    Keep hammerin'. Have a great weekend. Later...
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

    Where the mind goes, the body follows.

    Ironwill Gym:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388


    Ironwill2008 Journal:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733

  3. #123
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ectoBgone View Post
    Thanks for that thorough reply, Bill. *sigh* ... so many interesting lifts. Almost makes you hope for a plateau so you have an excuse to change things up!

    Have a great weekend.
    Always happy to help, Jason. You're right about all the choices; I never could figure out the guys who complain about being bored with training. Enjoy your weekend, bro. Later...
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

    Where the mind goes, the body follows.

    Ironwill Gym:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388


    Ironwill2008 Journal:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733

  4. #124
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Ironwill2008

    Gettin' back into the groove. Today's training:

    Arms/Calves/Abs

    Alternate dumbbell curl
    35x11
    40x8
    45x5

    Barbell curl
    85x9
    85x8
    85x7

    Incline curl
    30x6
    25x8
    25x8

    Leg press calf raise
    400x16
    500x10
    550x6

    Seated calf raise
    180x10
    190x10
    200x7

    Crunch
    1x25

    Burned an hour on this session. It feels pretty good to have a split with arms all in one workout. The bigger advantage, though, is that back has a day all by itself, as do legs. I'm still not happy with the calf training, but can only do so much in an hour. I'll continue to do low-rep stuff for calves; I feel it the next day, more so than with high rep stuff. I'll see how it works out.
    Legs are coming up fast; I can't wait. Later...
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

    Where the mind goes, the body follows.

    Ironwill Gym:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388


    Ironwill2008 Journal:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733

  5. #125
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Ironwill2008

    First real leg workout since my"layoff". Rant to follow, so get ready for it. Today's training was:

    Legs

    Squats
    135x10 W/U
    185X6 W/U
    205x6
    225x6
    245x6
    265x5
    285x3 this is 5 reps off my last real leg workout.

    Barbell lunge
    bar x6
    95x6
    115x6
    135x6

    Stiff-leg deads
    135x6
    155x6
    185x6

    Leg curl
    40x10
    45x7
    45x6


    I felt good today, ready to get back to leg training. I knew I'd be off quite a bit, and I was correct. That last set of squats felt like I had a '56 Buick on my back, and the Roadmaster model at that, the one with all the chrome.
    To those of you who visit my journal regularly, you know how I preach against taking time off from training, and to manage your training and nutrition so you never get overtrained, and are forced to take time off. Well, this workout is proof positive. My two weeks' off wasn't even the result of overtraining; when I left, I was crankin' it. As you can see, I lost 5 reps off my top set of squats. Sure, sure, it's largely due to my advanced age; I realize I've got many years on most of you, but the point is valid, nonetheless. If you arbitrarily take time off, you're going to lose something on your training. So I'll say it again here- DON'T let yourself get overtrained, so you're forced to take time off; much better to de-train one week a month, and keep making steady progress.
    I'll eventually get back to where I was, or at least close, but I'll bet it will take a month or two. Yes, again I realize it's due to my age; you younger guys would get back much quicker. The point is to not have to get back, at all.
    This session took 55 minutes, mostly huffing and puffing between sets. I wanted to get right to the point in this workout-squats and lunges, so I blew-off leg presses, hacks, extensions, etc. I'll concentrate on the two lifts with the bar on my back, until I get my squat back near 300 for reps.
    The barbell lunges really are paying off. Even with the layoff, I felt strong on them today, and plan to keep working them until I either stall-out on them, or fall over, whichever comes first. They're a great quad finisher, in my opinion, and use up whatever is left in the quads, after squatting.
    Gotta eat, then hit the yard work. Later...
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

    Where the mind goes, the body follows.

    Ironwill Gym:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388


    Ironwill2008 Journal:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733

  6. #126
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    Point taken!

  7. #127
    Pyscho for HST Pain liftiron68's Avatar
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    I see what you mean. I just did a full week off (intentional), to ensure full recovery, although it didn?t effect my lifts, however it kind of effected me mentally. I wanted to lift so bad during that week off, that I wonder if I expected too much when I came back. In other words, I my lifts didn't increase as much as I wanted.

    So... I am going to follow your thoughts next time and "de-load" for a week instead. This way I'm active, but recovering.
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  8. #128
    I love DOMS alkell's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by elarsen68 View Post
    I see what you mean. I just did a full week off (intentional), to ensure full recovery, although it didn?t effect my lifts, however it kind of effected me mentally. I wanted to lift so bad during that week off, that I wonder if I expected too much when I came back. In other words, I my lifts didn't increase as much as I wanted.

    So... I am going to follow your thoughts next time and "de-load" for a week instead. This way I'm active, but recovering.
    I get the same way on a week off, I get edgy to lift again, so some sort of cruise works better for me.
    Taking the "less is more" approach to cardio...

  9. #129
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by elarsen68 View Post
    I see what you mean. I just did a full week off (intentional), to ensure full recovery, although it didn?t effect my lifts, however it kind of effected me mentally. I wanted to lift so bad during that week off, that I wonder if I expected too much when I came back. In other words, I my lifts didn't increase as much as I wanted.

    So... I am going to follow your thoughts next time and "de-load" for a week instead. This way I'm active, but recovering.
    Give it a fair try; I honestly think it's a better approach. The trick is to de-load BEFORE you're ever into overtraining. I just automatically do it every 4th week, regardless of how I feel.



    Originally Posted by alkell View Post
    I get the same way on a week off, I get edgy to lift again, so some sort of cruise works better for me.
    2x; another reason to de-load! All the advantages, none of the disadvantages of a week off.
    Remember, cut loads to 50%, go NOWHERE near failure, and keep-up your calorie intake on de-load week.
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

    Where the mind goes, the body follows.

    Ironwill Gym:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388


    Ironwill2008 Journal:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733

  10. #130
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ectoBgone View Post
    Point taken!
    Sorry to keep harping on this; just want you guys to continue to make steady progress, and stay away from my mistakes in the past.
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

    Where the mind goes, the body follows.

    Ironwill Gym:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388


    Ironwill2008 Journal:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733

  11. #131
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Ironwill2008

    I was ready to train today; all the brain-fog I had last week, trying to get back, is gone. Today's training:

    Chest/ Shoulders/ Abs

    Dumbbell incline press
    40x10 W/U
    55X10 W/U
    70x12
    75x10
    75x10

    Smith flat press
    185x10
    205x5
    205x5

    Cable x-over
    15x10
    20x10
    20x10

    Seated dumbbell shoulder press
    40x10 W/U
    50x10
    55x8
    60x5

    Lateral raise
    25x10
    25x9
    25x9

    Bent lateral
    25x12
    25x11
    25x11

    Hanging leg raise
    19-5-3 done rest/pause

    Last week's relatively easy workouts were mentally taxing on me. All that went away today. I had planned to go a bit easy today, but that went out the window after my first warmup set. It's funny how the mind works-where it goes, the body follows.
    My poundages are still off a bit, but that's not a concern. What was, was my mental state, my drive to lift to failure, and I got it back today, in spades.
    One positive aspect of my forced layoff, other than losing a bit of bodyfat, is that the residual shoulder pain I had from 6 months ago, the last time I attempted to sneak barbell bench presses past my shoulders, is gone.
    The dumbbell shoulder presses felt especially good; I haven't done them in about 18 months, concentrating instead on Smith machine presses, and barbell militaries. I felt them entirely in my medial delts, with anteriors assisting, and NO triceps pump. I'm going to stay with them for a while, and see where they take me.
    The dumbbell incline presses felt good, too. As I said, I had intended to go pretty conservative on them, but after a quick warmup, had the urge to push 'em. I have the feeling I'm going to max-out on these pretty quick, but that's okay, there's other stuff I can do!
    All in all, a very satisfying session, taking 60 minutes, and bringing me back into the game. I can't wait for back day. Later...
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

    Where the mind goes, the body follows.

    Ironwill Gym:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388


    Ironwill2008 Journal:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733

  12. #132
    In search of V-Taper ectoBgone's Avatar
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    Great to see you back in force! Way to go, Bill.

  13. #133
    GOOOO COCKS!!!!! Hibiscus09's Avatar
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    Hi Will! I don't know if I've ever talked to you on this site before because I have no memory -- especially lately with my daughter getting married and all......

    Anyhoo, welcome if I haven't said it!!

    Most of my family are from West Virginia. I have 13 brothers and sisters and about the last 10 were born there. My parents are from Milton (near Huntington) and Logan, West Virginia. I used to head up that way a lot as a child.

    Your workouts look great!!
    "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7

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  14. #134
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ectoBgone View Post
    Great to see you back in force! Way to go, Bill.
    Thank you, Jason; after being back for nearly two weeks, it's great to actually BE back! I'm sitting at this keyboard, tapping my foot, anxious to get to the next training session. Is that sick, or what?


    Originally Posted by Hibiscus09 View Post
    Hi Will! I don't know if I've ever talked to you on this site before because I have no memory -- especially lately with my daughter getting married and all......

    Anyhoo, welcome if I haven't said it!!

    Most of my family are from West Virginia. I have 13 brothers and sisters and about the last 10 were born there. My parents are from Milton (near Huntington) and Logan, West Virginia. I used to head up that way a lot as a child.

    Your workouts look great!!
    Hello, Hibiscus09, welcome to my journal! I don't believe we've talked here before, but my memory isn't that great either! When I worked for the phone co., I worked there often. Logan, too. Small world, isn't it?
    Congratulations on your daughter's wedding; things can get a little busy at these times, can't they?
    Thanks for the kind comments, and thank you again for stopping by. Have a great day.
    Last edited by ironwill2008; 09-11-2015 at 08:19 AM.
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

    Where the mind goes, the body follows.

    Ironwill Gym:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388


    Ironwill2008 Journal:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733

  15. #135
    Teacher and Bodybuilder BergMuscle's Avatar
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    Will, great wo! Sounds like you've found your "groove" again (there's something about that phase that bugs me). Anyway, great to hear that your back at it hard!

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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    Thank you, Jason; after being back for nearly two weeks, it's great to actually BE back! I'm sitting at this keyboard, tapping my foot, anxious to get to the next training session. Is that sick, or what?




    Hello, Hibiscus09, welcome to my journal! I don't believe we've talked here before, but my memory isn't that great either! When I worked for the phone co., I worked there often. Logan, too. Small world, isn't it?
    Congratulations on your daughter's wedding; things can get a little busy at these times, can't they?
    Thanks for the kind comments, and thank you again for stopping by. Have a great day.
    Oh wow! It is a small world. My daughter received a couple of really pretty Blenko glass pieces as wedding presents from relatives that way.
    Last edited by ironwill2008; 09-11-2015 at 08:20 AM.
    "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7

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  17. #137
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BergMuscle View Post
    Will, great wo! Sounds like you've found your "groove" again (there's something about that phase that bugs me). Anyway, great to hear that your back at it hard!
    Thanks, BergMuscle! I recently went on vacation for 2 weeks, and was unable to train at all. As I stated in an earlier post, this was the first time in 15 years that I didn't train. For a younger guy, it wouldn't have been any big deal, but I'm no Spring chicken! Not surprising to me was the fact that it was mentally, more than physically, difficult to come back. Thanks for your encouragement. Have a great day!


    Originally Posted by Hibiscus09 View Post
    Oh wow! It is a small world. My daughter received a couple of really pretty Blenko glass pieces as wedding presents from relatives that way.
    Yes it it, and it's getting smaller every day. I guess Blenko is world famous at this point. Have a great day, and keep smilin'!
    No brain, no gain.

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  18. #138
    I love DOMS alkell's Avatar
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    Nice workout mate.

    This may sound strange, but have you every experience back pain with hanging leg raises? I tried them the other night and had a sharp pain shoot through my back. It was like my body didn't like the stretch of the hanging with the raising of the legs.
    Taking the "less is more" approach to cardio...

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    Originally Posted by alkell View Post
    Nice workout mate.

    This may sound strange, but have you every experience back pain with hanging leg raises? I tried them the other night and had a sharp pain shoot through my back. It was like my body didn't like the stretch of the hanging with the raising of the legs.
    No, that's never been my experience, and I've been doing them a long time. I've done them both with slings, and also with just an overhand grip on a chinning bar. The only thing I get is my abs burning like fire, after about 15 reps. I don't know what else to tell you, without seeing you perform them.
    Thanks for the comment, alkell.
    No brain, no gain.

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  20. #140
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    Ironwill 2008

    First things first; I want to send out a big Thank You to everyone who takes the time to visit this journal. Your comments, critiques, criticism, and suggestions are all very valuable to me.

    Had a very good training session today; as I stepped into the gym, I was as on-point mentally as I can be, and knew by the first warm-up set that this would be one of those really good workouts. Today's training:

    Back/Abs

    Chinups
    Bodyweight x10 W/U - got an immediate lat pump
    bodyweight + 25x9
    bodyweight + 45x5
    bodyweight + 45x5

    V-bar row
    110x10 bar wt. not included
    125x8
    130x7 I really like how these feel in my upper middle back.

    Dumbbell row
    90x9
    100x8
    110x6 the 120's are coming out next week.

    V-grip pulldown
    140x10
    150x7
    150x7 I rotated these in as a substitute for the v-grip pullups I did last week, which caused shoulder issues. These felt okay; I didn't lose my lat pump, but didn't add to it either. Nex week, I'm going to try a neutral-grip handle.

    Deadlifts
    135x5
    185x5
    225x5
    275x5
    315x5
    340x3

    Crunch
    25-15-15 straight sets

    This session took 70 minutes, most of it huffing and puffing. The V-bar rows are great, but they really make me work to keep proper form; they make me want to really round-over my upper back, a bad thing, to say the least. My lats were so pumped-up doing these that my biceps were hitting them, while I was rowing, a good thing! Yes, I know a pump is not an indicator of future growth, but it's a good indicator of which bodypart is doing the work. Combining a pump with heavy, low-rep work is the ticket, at least for me.
    As I stated before my layoff, I've hit my deadlift brick wall at 375; I'm smart enough to know it's not going to move, so I'll do as I normally do this time of year. I'll start doing rack pulls next week, to continue working my lower back, with a new goal to work towards. I'll then concentrate on my upper back, now that I've moved arms off back day. Come the end of Summer, I'll change-up again, and drop the rack pulls, go back to deadlifts on my Fall-Winter 5x5 routine, and start the yearly periodization cycle all over again.
    Gotta eat. I'm out. Later...
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

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  21. #141
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    Dumbbell incline press
    40x10 W/U
    55X10 W/U
    70x12
    75x10
    75x10

    Smith flat press
    185x10
    205x5
    205x5

    Cable x-over
    15x10
    20x10
    20x10
    I see what you mean about the dumbell presses and the Smith presses.

    I'll try the Smith next week, and perhaps I'll move back to the dumbells as well...

    Damned shoulders (aka "rusty joints")...
    Regards,

    Duncan



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    Those are still some big time weights being pushed around there, Bill. It's real impressive to me. I get at least as much out of this journal as you do and I'm always eager to see what you're doing. Have a great weekend.

  23. #143
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    Originally Posted by DNG View Post
    I see what you mean about the dumbell presses and the Smith presses.

    I'll try the Smith next week, and perhaps I'll move back to the dumbells as well...

    Damned shoulders (aka "rusty joints")...
    Hi, Duncan. Give them a try; they've been shoulder savers for me, and the only real way I can work my chest. Barbell bench presses are just so tough on rotator cuffs, I don't know why everyone still battles with them.





    Originally Posted by ectoBgone View Post
    Those are still some big time weights being pushed around there, Bill. It's real impressive to me. I get at least as much out of this journal as you do and I'm always eager to see what you're doing. Have a great weekend.
    Thanks so much Jason; your comments are always positive. You're going to surpass everything I've been doing here; it's simply a matter of time. Just think of the progress you're making now, and project that 10 years into the future. See what I mean?
    I was so fired up to train today, I could have been 20 years old. I just love this sport.
    Rest up, bro. Later...
    No brain, no gain.

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  24. #144
    Teacher and Bodybuilder BergMuscle's Avatar
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    Nice big numbers there, Will. Your lats should feel pumped.
    I had the same reaction from my biceps on my last back day, got a nice pump while my back got some good work as well.

    Great job on the dead lifts.

  25. #145
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BergMuscle View Post
    Nice big numbers there, Will. Your lats should feel pumped.
    I had the same reaction from my biceps on my last back day, got a nice pump while my back got some good work as well.

    Great job on the dead lifts.

    Hey, thanks! The pump really lets you know where the work is going. I've read in many of your posts how much you like back training. I like it , too. It's always a challenge, and the number of different exercises is almost limitless.
    Thanks for the comments, BergMuscle; have a great weekend.
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

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  26. #146
    I love DOMS alkell's Avatar
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    Strong chin ups mate, well done.

    70 minutes of nearly all back, no wonder you were huffing and puffing
    Taking the "less is more" approach to cardio...

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    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by alkell View Post
    Strong chin ups mate, well done.

    70 minutes of nearly all back, no wonder you were huffing and puffing
    Hey, thanks, alkell! The chins are one of my all-time favorite moves. I'd do 'em every day if I thought it would be good for me!
    I really like giving my back a day all it's own; I can really concentrate on what is the body's largest group of muscles, without concern for a second bodypart getting short shrift. As much as I like this split, however, nothing produces results forever; I'll ride it 'til it falls down, then switch-up! Have a great weekend; get rested!
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

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  28. #148
    In search of V-Taper ectoBgone's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    The chins are one of my all-time favorite moves. I'd do 'em every day if I thought it would be good for me!
    Hey, speaking of which, I plan on changing up my back routine on Monday and want to switch from pull-ups to chin-ups for this round. Any technique pointers you'd care to share? Thanks!

  29. #149
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    Man too bad you live so far away. The way you train and the lifts (poundage)
    are pretty much the same as mine. You would be a perfect canidate for a partner.

    I am willing to bet thet your lifts will be right back to where you left off within
    the month. You are doing a great job so keep those positive thoughts just as
    you have in your last workout post.
    Every day counts.

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  30. #150
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    Originally Posted by ectoBgone View Post
    Hey, speaking of which, I plan on changing up my back routine on Monday and want to switch from pull-ups to chin-ups for this round. Any technique pointers you'd care to share? Thanks!
    Hi, Jason! I prefer chinups to pullups because the arms are straight up and down, which provides a bit fuller stretch to the lats, and a bit more direct pull on them. Also, your arms are in a stronger position with a curl-grip; more reps.
    How you warm-up for them depends on where you place them in your routine. If they're first, like I'm doing now, I'll do a couple of 3-rep bodyweight sets, one 10 -rep bodyweight set, then strap on whatever weight I think I can get 6 full reps with. These put a tremendous load on the biceps tendons, on the inside of the elbows; this area needs to be warm before blasting it.
    If they're not the first exercise in the routine, I'll do a 10 rep bodyweight set, and see how my elbows feel. If they're warmed up, I go for it; if not, I'll do another short bodyweight set. As you can see, I'm real picky about my biceps tendons; If I pull one, it would take many weeks for it to heal, and doing 6-rep sets leaves little margin for error.
    Once you're chinning, just be sure to use a FULL RANGE OF MOTION. I cross my ankles under me, and keep my legs as still as possible. Full hang, to chin-over-the -bar, pulling your elbows as far back as you can, at the top of the rep. I usually do 3 sets, and add or subtract whatever weight I feel will let me get 6 reps. You're deadlifting, so grip shouldn't be a problem; if your grip does limit you, use chalk or straps, or whatever you need, to get your reps.
    Yes, they're ball-busters, but like squats and deadlifts, the toughest stuff gets you the most return.
    Give 'em a fair try; your lats will thank you! Have a great weekend. Later...
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

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