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  1. #31
    Banned Paumen's Avatar
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    Circuit wait training is fine, just don't go 2 fast bro.

    When you cycle 200 watts do you think it is faster then a jog? If so you are burning muscle, this much I can guarntee.
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  2. #32
    Not banned afterall MarkVI's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paumen View Post
    This study is not of a "Keto diet".

    When they say low here its more around 100 to 200 betcha.

    Don't base your diet on studys. Real world results from other people doing the SAME thing is much better for you. GL
    X2!

    You have to go by what works by experience.....I have never found those studies to be of much help
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  3. #33
    Registered User treerollins's Avatar
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    The mention of the study was meant to underline some merits of HIIT. Regardless of the study, BCAA are a cheap insurance policy for avoiding muscle loss on high intensity cardio, and are certainly not detrimental towards lengthier steady state cardio.

    And as for that not being a "keto based study", why would it have to be? Its connection is to show that high intensity cardio will be more effective (as compared to mixed calorie dieting) due to exercise induced GH/epoc, but also due to increased HSL expression. Combining relevant non-keto studies with our familiar keto "truths" is the only way for keto to progress. We don't need keto based creatine studies to understand it works just fine on keto diets.
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  4. #34
    Registered User treerollins's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by deadfingers View Post
    So what your saying is that it's best to take BCAAs before doing HIIT rather than during?
    Yes; but if you find yourself in a marathon or any type of extended cardiovascular training and would like to avoid carbohydrates and improve endurance/delay fatigue, a 6% glutamine/BCAA solution w/ b-complex vitamins and small amounts of potassium and sodium can be sipped. Xtend is a quality product that fits this description, and it has added citrulline malate (although it does contain artificial sweeteners).
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  5. #35
    Yellow fever deadfingers's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by treerollins View Post
    Yes; but if you find yourself in a marathon or any type of extended cardiovascular training and would like to avoid carbohydrates and improve endurance/delay fatigue, a 6% glutamine/BCAA solution w/ b-complex vitamins and small amounts of potassium and sodium can be sipped. Xtend is a quality product that fits this description, and it has added citrulline malate (although it does contain artificial sweeteners).
    Well I don't find myself getting that deep into cardio stuff while on Keto. If I did anything like that I'd switch to a 40/40/20. thanks for the info.
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by Paumen View Post
    Circuit wait training is fine, just don't go 2 fast bro.

    When you cycle 200 watts do you think it is faster then a jog? If so you are burning muscle, this much I can guarntee.
    Huh!? really?? But jog is so slow....and it hardly burn any calories.
    200watt is not fast but hard..It's like trying to sprint up a hill..
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  7. #37
    Carbs as tools ItalWHOP's Avatar
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    My cardio is almost always high intensity unless I was working legs. Then I do LISS. I also only take 20 to 25 second breaks b/w sets when lifting.

    As treerollins has stated, pre workout nutrition is key. If you want to do HIIT, then just make sure you have your body set up to minimize LBM loss. I find HIIT to be way more gratifying then LISS, so I stick with it. I'm sure my heart likes it too.

    Tree, what do you think about this (mind you I follow TKD)?

    30 gs waxy maize 30 min prior to work out
    10 gs BCAAs sipped during work out (work out lasts anywhere from 45 min to 1 1/2 hours)
    60 gs waxy + 1 scoop whey (I'm actually doing 60gs WMS and 2 scoops of whey atm while I finish up a weight gain supplement I am taking)


    Am I better off moving the BCAAs prior to working out or does this seem sufficient?
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  8. #38
    Registered User treerollins's Avatar
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    The pre-exercise waxy maize starch will cause an increase in serum insulin. This insulin will decrease/oppose catecholamine concentrations (and downstream increases in HSL activity in muscle). This will shift the energy balance from a FFA economy to a glucose economy (albeit temporarily). The insulin will also increase expression of glycogen synthase, and oppose exercise induced cortisol production. Before the body ever has a need to scavenge BCAA for glutamine/alanine production, it will look for glucose and/or glycogen. Thus, the WMS decreases the possibility of two things; 1) free fatty acids being oxidized for energy, and 2) BCAA being oxidized for energy. This is why carbohydrates are said to be protein sparing.

    Note: just because intra-workout fat oxidation is inhibited by pre-workout carbohydrates does not suggest long term fat loss will be inhibited to a large degree (due to EPOC and other energy costly long term recovery items).

    With that said, consume the BCAA alongside the pre-workout WMS instead of during the workout. Intense exercise decreases gastric emptying, and BCAA take time to reach the bloodstream anyway.

    Your post-workout plan is just fine for inducing hyperaminoacedemia and hyperinsulinemia. I usually recommend far less carbohydrates, something like 15-25 grams, but in your case/scenario, use up what you have first. I would also recommend you stick to 2 scoops whey, but this is based more on personal experience/preference than science.
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  9. #39
    D R E A M burke's Avatar
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    I don't understand why people on here are saying HIIT is a high intensity activity that uses carbs for fuel due to the fact you are working >85%.

    Weight lifting is a high intensity activity as well! Especially when you are training the way most keto gurus do. (i,e, dave palumbo - low reps high intensity)

    If anything I think HIIT would just take you into a deeper state of ketosis due to the glycogen being burned.

    I don't see a problem at all with doing HIIT on your OFF days while doing keto... Bottom line is that HIIT will burn more overall calories (goal when dieting...?) and as long as you are not already starving yourself on keto how could it be a problem.

    EDIT: Not to mention to get the full benefits of cardio (health wise) you should be working in your THR zone which according to most would be a bad idea on keto. Seems to me if your just sitting on a treadmill for 60 mins to burn 150 calories you are just wasting serious time. People work at such LOW intensities with cardio on keto they mine as well just toss the cardio.

    Don't get me wrong I did the Palumbo diet and liked it, but when I was barley moving on my cardio machine to make sure I stayed <120bpm I felt I was completely wasting my time, mine as well manipulate the diet a tiny bit to cut out those 100 calories....
    Last edited by burke; 01-18-2010 at 09:53 AM.
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  10. #40
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    From http://www.marksdailyapple.com/case-against-cardio/:

    The first energy system relied heavily on the slow burning of fats, keeping us fueled while we were at rest or sleeping, yet also allowing for continuous or intermittent low levels of aerobic activity (think of our ancestors walking across the savannah for hours foraging for roots, shoots, berries, grubs, insects and the occasional small animal). It makes sense. Fats are very efficient fuels that are stored easily in the fat cells and burn easily and cleanly when lots of oxygen is present (as when we are breathing normally). Even if there’s no food in the immediate area, a well-trained fat-burning hunter-gatherer could continue walking and foraging for days without compromising his or her health or efficiency.

    The second major energy system we developed through evolution was an ATP-fueled system that allowed for intense loads of work to be done in very brief bursts (think of our hunter-gatherer ancestors sprinting to the safety of a tree to avoid being eaten by a lion). ATP is always sitting right there within the muscle cells, available in a split second, and it is the highest octane fuel we have. In fact, it’s ATP and adrenaline that allow the little old lady to lift the front end of the Ford Fairlane off her husband when the jack fails. Unfortunately, the muscles can only store about 20 seconds worth of this precious fuel to complete life-or-death tasks. If our ancestors survived that quick sprint to safety, their ATP reserves were filled again within minutes using the other energy systems.
    Good: LISS, sprinting, lifting weights
    Bad: HISS, HITT

    Replace HIIT with sprints.
    Last edited by mac520; 01-18-2010 at 01:26 PM.
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  11. #41
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    not sure why this thread was bumped its a year and a half old (5-2008).. This discussion has been had over and over again.. On keto all forms of cardio are good.. No studies have been done showing lbm loss to thise on a keto diet doing any type of cardio LISS, MISS, HISS, HIIT... The only drawback on doing HIIT on keto is durring the initial phase of the diet were your body is running on carbs and energy is no in abundence.. anytime after start up of keto HIIT is used..

    Lyle Mcdanold.. Has written several books on keto and is a strong advocate of doing HIIT while on keto..

    Everyone is different.. Try different types of cardio and see what works for you
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  12. #42
    Registered User Brianterz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mac520 View Post
    From http://www.marksdailyapple.com/case-against-cardio/:



    Good: LISS, sprinting, lifting weights
    Bad: HISS, HITT

    Replace HIIT with sprints.
    LOL.. sprints are HIIT... sprint.. rest.. sprint.. rest..

    Lifting is HIIT....

    LISS-- is walking.. very boring stuff
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by dom996 View Post
    So if I go to over 85% and I have no carbs what happens?
    your body explodes...so don't do it.
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  14. #44
    D R E A M burke's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Brianterz View Post
    not sure why this thread was bumped its a year and a half old (5-2008).. This discussion has been had over and over again.. On keto all forms of cardio are good.. No studies have been done showing lbm loss to thise on a keto diet doing any type of cardio LISS, MISS, HISS, HIIT... The only drawback on doing HIIT on keto is durring the initial phase of the diet were your body is running on carbs and energy is no in abundence.. anytime after start up of keto HIIT is used..

    Lyle Mcdanold.. Has written several books on keto and is a strong advocate of doing HIIT while on keto..

    Everyone is different.. Try different types of cardio and see what works for you
    I was not aware of this... in fact I was told many times (a couple on this board) that Lyle was actually against doing HIIT and claimed LISS was better. That being said... I pulled this from his website...

    Originally Posted by Lyle McDonald
    While anaerobic exercise refers generally to any activity which lasts less than three minutes or so, most individuals are interested in the effects of a CKD on weight training. However athletes involved in sports such as sprinting, or any activity lasting less than three minutes, will have the same considerations discussed in this section.

    Weight training refers to any activity involving the use of heavy resistance which lasts less than three minutes (i.e. it is anaerobic). Weight training is slightly more complicated to discuss in terms of fuel use than aerobic exercise. For very short activities (less than 20 seconds), muscles use ATP (adenosine triphosphate) which is stored directly in the muscle. Activities lasting greater than 30 seconds will rely on the breakdown of glycogen (carbohydrate stored in the muscle). During anaerobic exercise, fat can not be used directly as a fuel (1).


    Would this mean that if your sprints, or intervals, were below 20 seconds, then you would not be tapping into glycogen and therefore would not be causing a problem on a ketogenic diet. I don't see how using ATP on a zero carb diet would be a problem with muscle loss or fat loss?

    Hopefully you understand what I am trying to say...??


    EDIT: Also wanted to throw in this quote from Layne...

    Originally Posted by Layne Norton
    As much as people would like to have you believe that glycogen is the only fuel you use during high intensity that is non-sense. This is the problem with ‘gurus’ who know a little bit, they know just enough to be dangerous.

    1) you only need oxygen to oxidize fat, you don’t need it to liberate (lipolysis) from fat tissue. High intensity cardio causes a LARGE dumping of free fatty acids into the bloodstream
    You see, for the brief part of the interval where you are oxygen depraved you will use glucose… but during the 40-50 seconds of low intensity of the interval where you are ‘resting’ your body will initiate a large scale oxidation of fatty acids in order to spare glucose. Your body is VERY stingy with glycogen and WILL NOT use muscle glycogen unless it absolutely has to. So you are burning glycogen yes, but you are also burning a ton of fat. The idea that you only burn one or the other is idiocy spewed by morons.
    Last edited by burke; 01-20-2010 at 10:27 AM.
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  15. #45
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    Originally Posted by burke View Post
    I was not aware of this... in fact I was told many times (a couple on this board) that Lyle was actually against doing HIIT and claimed LISS was better. That being said... I pulled this from his website...

    [/b]

    Would this mean that if your sprints, or intervals, were below 20 seconds, then you would not be tapping into glycogen and therefore would not be causing a problem on a ketogenic diet. I don't see how using ATP on a zero carb diet would be a problem with muscle loss or fat loss?

    Hopefully you understand what I am trying to say...??


    EDIT: Also wanted to throw in this quote from Layne...
    Check out Lyles book on extream weight loss... talks about PSMF.. and HIIT.. and keto...

    Sprints by def. are HIIT... in thoery durring sprints or weight lifting you are using gycogen as energy, but at reast, you revert back to fat.. so with a 20-40 min HIIT cardio.. 30 seconds on 1 min off... you wind wind up burning more fat over that period then 40-60 min of LISS... With weight lifting the usage of muscle glycogen is what we want when on keto.. makes the carb up usefull :-)

    I guess i am also saying what Layne is..

    Best bet is to try them all.. Our bodies can adapt and adjust to what we need.. LISS may work for a while but the body will adapt to it.. Best things would be to change things up and keep your body guessing..
    Last edited by Brianterz; 01-20-2010 at 02:23 PM.
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