Glycine Propionyl-L-Carnitine HCL: A.K.A GPLC or PLCAR

[kerplunk]

I've been looking into this as a supplement a lot recently in order to burn some fat residing in my core area. Of course before summer I'm looking to cut this off. Jarrow Formulations has Glycine Propionyl-L-Carnitine HCL. This compound is supposed to help metabolize fatty acids into the mitochondria where they are obivously turned into energy. If this really works then it would be great. You would burn fat without a stimulant while receiving a steady amount of ATP to have a steady flow of energy throughout the day.

Has anyone tried this. I know Des has.

How has this worked for you?
Have you stacked with any fat burners?
Comments, Research, Info would be awesome!

Thanks

[Elliptical Envy]

I really don't know if PLCAR works better than ALCAR for fat loss. I'll see what I can dig up for you, kerplunk.

[Glaive]

It is my understanding that transportation of fatty acids into the mitochondria occurs with any form of L-Carnitine, it's just that some forms are supposedly "better" than others at this. Other forms of L-Carnitine also have additional properties, such as the many nootropic benefits of ALCAR.

As I have no experience with GPLC or PLCAR specifically (and I was under the impression that those two were not the same thing), I would certainly be interested in hearing from users who've tried one or both, particularly if you also have experience with regular L-Carnitine or ALCAR.

[kerplunk]

Originally Posted by Elliptical Envy

I really don't know if PLCAR works better than ALCAR for fat loss. I'll see what I can dig up for you, kerplunk.

from what I read PLCAR does for the body what ALCAR does to the mind if that makes sense. L-Carnitine I heard doesn't work unless higher doses. If you look at the GPLC then you notice that the dosage is about 1/5 of what L-Carnitine would be.

[kerplunk]

Originally Posted by Glaive

It is my understanding that transportation of fatty acids into the mitochondria occurs with any form of L-Carnitine, it's just that some forms are supposedly "better" than others at this. Other forms of L-Carnitine also have additional properties, such as the many nootropic benefits of ALCAR.

As I have no experience with GPLC or PLCAR specifically (and I was under the impression that those two were not the same thing), I would certainly be interested in hearing from users who've tried one or both, particularly if you also have experience with regular L-Carnitine or ALCAR.

Yea, ALCAR is a very popular form, but in this case we want to highlight the fat metabolizing effects rather than the nootropics.

[Elliptical Envy]

Looks like I can't find a head to head clinical study regarding fat loss effects. This might come down to anecdotal feedback. The study I found compared ALCAR to PLCAR in the treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome. http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org...tract/66/2/276

[kerplunk]

OBJECTIVES: We compared the effects of acetylcarnitine, propionylcarnitine and both compounds on the symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS).

METHODS: In an open, randomized fashion we compared 2 g/d acetyl-L-carnitine, 2 g/d propionyl-L-carnitine, and its combination in 3 groups of 30 CFS patients during 24 weeks. Effects were rated by clinical global impression of change. Secondary endpoints were the Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory, McGill Pain Questionnaire, and the Stroop attention concentration test. Scores were assessed 8 weeks before treatment; at randomization; after 8, 16, and 24 weeks of treatment; and 2 weeks later.

RESULTS: Clinical global impression of change after treatment showed considerable improvement in 59% of the patients in the acetylcarnitine group and 63% in the propionylcarnitine group, but less in the acetylcarnitine plus propionylcarnitine group (37%). Acetylcarnitine significantly improved mental fatigue (p = .015) and propionylcarnitine improved general fatigue (p = .004). Attention concentration improved in all groups, whereas pain complaints did not decrease in any group. Two weeks after treatment, worsening of fatigue was experienced by 52%, 50%, and 37% in the acetylcarnitine, propionylcarnitine, and combined group, respectively. In the acetylcarnitine group, but not in the other groups, the changes in plasma carnitine levels correlated with clinical improvement.

CONCLUSIONS: Acetylcarnitine and propionylcarnitine showed beneficial effect on fatigue and attention concentration. Less improvement was found by the combined treatment. Acetylcarnitine had main effect on mental fatigue and propionylcarnitine on general fatigue.

The p-value in the PLCAR conclusion is so low that failing to reject the hypothesis is retarted. The significance is <.05 which should lead to not believe the effects. I dont think thats a great study. Perhaps I'm wrong though.

[kerplunk]

Let me explain something also. By cutting I mean recomping. I am not cutting as that would be stupid at 160lbs. Sometime in May/June I want to recomp for summer, by then I'll hopefully be around 170 (Up from 125). I'm just looking alter fat uptake.

[kerplunk]

Des where are you. I know you've used this.

[deserusan]

GPLC is decent stuff but some of the research is hit or miss with regards to a performance benefit. However, it does seem to aide with fatty acid transport into the mitochondria to get burned up. I sweat my ass off while using it. Typically I'd dose about 1.6 grams preworkout or cardio.

It's not cheap however and it is cost prohibitive from a production standpoint to include in most formulas being that it is about 10x more expensive then ALCAR. Really, I don't notice much of a difference then the two besides what the research has noted on paper.

[Elliptical Envy]

Originally Posted by deserusan

Really, I don't notice much of a difference then the two besides what the research has noted on paper.

I had a feeling that would be the outcome.

[deserusan]

Originally Posted by Elliptical Envy

I had a feeling that would be the outcome.

With PLCAR I do however, but that is hard to come by these days.

[Elliptical Envy]

Originally Posted by deserusan

With PLCAR I do however, but that is hard to come by these days.

I guess would the benefits or extra effects of PLCAR in regards to fat loss warrant the extra cost? I can't find a head to head study with both products, but if it is like an additional 1 or 2 lbs lost over a course of a few weeks or a month that might not be worth the money.

[user23960508710785]

im interested in your results, i never went throught with trying the stuff

RPN pimps PLCAR for fat loss, so i guess it has some credibility
interested in how this goes

[deserusan]

Originally Posted by Elliptical Envy

I guess would the benefits or extra effects of PLCAR in regards to fat loss warrant the extra cost? I can't find a head to head study with both products, but if it is like an additional 1 or 2 lbs lost over a course of a few weeks or a month that might not be worth the money.

PLCAR isn't that expensive compared to GPLC. Also, the extra cost with GPLC is that fact it is patented by Sigma Tau. A new research study on GPLC wasn't too compelling though which is part of the reason the cost/benefit ratio doesn't seem worth it to me at present to replace the ALCAR in something like SizeON.

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2008 Feb;18(1):19-36.

Effect of glycine propionyl-L-carnitine on aerobic and anaerobic exercise performance.

Smith WA, Fry AC, Tschume LC, Bloomer RJ.


The purpose of this study was to evaluate the effect of glycine propionyl-L-carnitine (GPLC) supplementation and endurance training for 8 wk on aerobic- and anaerobic-exercise performance in healthy men and women (age 18-44 yr). Participants were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: placebo (n=9), 1 g/d GPLC (n=11), or 3 g/d GPLC (n=12), in a double-blind fashion. Muscle carnitine (vastus lateralis), VO(2peak), exercise time to fatigue, anaerobic threshold, anaerobic power, and total work were measured at baseline and after an 8-wk aerobic-training program. There were no statistical differences (p> .05) between or within the 3 groups for any performance-related variable or muscle carnitine concentrations after 8 wk of supplementation and training. These results suggest that up to 3 g/d GPLC for 8 wk in conjunction with aerobic-exercise training is ineffective for increasing muscle carnitine content and has no significant effects on aerobic- or anaerobic-exercise performance.

[Phosphate bond]

Originally Posted by Glaive

It is my understanding that transportation of fatty acids into the mitochondria occurs with any form of L-Carnitine,

This is true.

I'm not understanding why people want propionic acid on their carnitine either.

It just gets converted into methylmalonic acid (with the help of biotin) and then succinyl COA (forming GTP) with the help of adenosyl-cobalamin (the form of B-12 formed when ATP levels are high in the cell)

But who cares and why is this helping with fat loss? I would just use regular carnitine and then let it grab a free fatty acid instead of having it attached with something already.

[deserusan]

Originally Posted by Phosphate bond

This is true.

I'm not understanding why people want propionic acid on their carnitine either.

It just gets converted into methylmalonic acid (with the help of biotin) and then succinyl COA (forming GTP) with the help of adenosyl-cobalamin (the form of B-12 formed when ATP levels are high in the cell)

But who cares and why is this helping with fat loss? I would just use regular carnitine and then let it grab a free fatty acid instead of having it attached with something already.

It's my understanding that supplemental carnitine doesn't have the best bioavailability whereas the acetyl version does (at least double). I do find it interesting that the absorption rate across enterocytes is higher in vegans then those who eat meat. Regardless, it would be nice if the supplemental version didn't need the added "attachments."

It would interesting to find a way to increase endogenous biosynthesis of carnitine. I know there are many enzymes involved in this process but the substrates seem readily available (lysine & methionine). Perhaps increasing the production of one of these could have a profound affect without negatively affecting any other processes? Who knows...maybe someday research will go down this path.

[Phosphate bond]

Besides what you are talking about there is evidence that carnitine is transported into the cell by insulin (just like creatine).

When this happens the carnitine increases non-oxidative disposal of glucose (ie, glycogen formation) while prolonging the oxidation of fats just a little longer.

Of course the right conditions need to be present for this to happen (ie, low bicarbonate levels inside the cell so acetyl COA carboxylase isn't activated) but the research is there saying this happens. Check Pubmed for a study that happened in the last year or two with injected insulin and carnitine in humans.

[deserusan]

Originally Posted by Phosphate bond

Check Pubmed for a study that happened in the last year or two with injected insulin and carnitine in humans.

Is this what are you are talking about? This certainly is some compelling evidence to support taking l-carnitine with carbs.

Stephens FB, Evans CE, Constantin-Teodosiu D, Greenhaff PL. Carbohydrate ingestion augments L-carnitine retention in humans. J Appl Physiol. 2007 Mar;102(3):1065-70. Epub 2006 Nov 30.

In conclusion, this is the first study to demonstrate that the whole body retention of orally supplemented L-carnitine can be augmented if accompanied by carbohydrate ingestion. Furthermore, this retention is likely to reside in skeletal muscle, because insulin is known to stimulate muscle total carnitine accumulation. These findings could have a significant effect on the integration of fat and carbohydrate oxidation in contracting skeletal muscle.

Free full text: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/102/3/1065

[Phosphate bond]

Originally Posted by deserusan

Is this what are you are talking about? This certainly is some compelling evidence to support taking l-carnitine with carbs.

Stephens FB, Evans CE, Constantin-Teodosiu D, Greenhaff PL. Carbohydrate ingestion augments L-carnitine retention in humans. J Appl Physiol. 2007 Mar;102(3):1065-70. Epub 2006 Nov 30.



Free full text: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/102/3/1065

Thanks. That is actually a different one but it appears to agree with the earlier one I saw.

I'll have to read through this one carefully later on to see what exactly happened when all these carbs were included.

Ideally you want enough insulin to get carnitine into cell, but then not too much to start changing how the mitochondria handles things. The other study definitely made it look like their was a partitioning effect but then again the conditions of the experiment really matter too.

[kerplunk]

I never new that the transport of L-Carnitine to the cells was affected by insulin. Phosphate Bond, the point you brought up with the fact the PLCAR or ALCAR is binded to something already as when compared to a free form carnitine will allow it to bond to the fatty acids. This makes sense, but then again the fact regarding poor bioavailiblity comes into play.

[in10city]

Originally Posted by kerplunk

I never new that the transport of L-Carnitine to the cells was affected by insulin. Phosphate Bond, the point you brought up with the fact the PLCAR or ALCAR is binded to something already as when compared to a free form carnitine will allow it to bond to the fatty acids. This makes sense, but then again the fact regarding poor bioavailiblity comes into play.

The insulin connection is one of the reasons why some of the early studies with Carnitine ended up with goose eggs - it wasn't being taken optimally.

Now if they could only be done properly again...

[kerplunk]

Originally Posted by in10city

The insulin connection is one of the reasons why some of the early studies with Carnitine ended up with goose eggs - it wasn't being taken optimally.

Now if they could only be done properly again...

L-Carnitine post workout can actually help. If it follows the insulin spike then if works how it should then the fatty acids should be pushing into the mitochodria. This is where energy is made. With the new formed energy from fatty acids, you should be able to help build muscle as well. Cells need ATP to grow. I think L-Carnitine would greatly benefit if this is the case.

[in10city]

Originally Posted by kerplunk

L-Carnitine post workout can actually help. If it follows the insulin spike then if works how it should then the fatty acids should be pushing into the mitochodria. This is where energy is made. With the new formed energy from fatty acids, you should be able to help build muscle as well. Cells need ATP to grow. I think L-Carnitine would greatly benefit if this is the case.

Yeah... Pre and post currently looks to be the optimal times of intake for that reason...

Then the other twist in the research is with L-Carnitine L-Tartrate specifically and its potential to increase androgen density in muscle. Don't know how the other forms stack up here though...

[Phosphate bond]

Originally Posted by in10city

The insulin connection is one of the reasons why some of the early studies with Carnitine ended up with goose eggs - it wasn't being taken optimally.

Now if they could only be done properly again...

I'm still reading through that second article deserusan showed me to see what happened specifically with all the glucose included.

[Sldge]

There is a lot of cool research on various attachments of carnitine. Personally I like the health benefits but the increase in androgen receptors is what really got me into looking at it. Ive used it a lot but havent seen much of a difference when used with or without carbs /insulin. Just in case anyone asks, I prefer Humalog to Humulin R.

[Hmark]

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